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Old 2013-03-20, 08:29   Link #41
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by iBeast View Post
Sarutobi is the weakest Hokage of all time. I'd peg him at the same level as Tsunade.
umm the retcon is and has been (apparently) in full effect. if those kage show up to the battlefield with their infinite chakra, we will be in for a whole lot of "waaaaaiiiiiittttt a minuuuuteee"

this is obviously my opinion, but i think tsunade is grossly underestimated...i know there have be several discussions about how not great she is, but there is something to be said about a chick who can constantly heal herself AND is more powerful than the raikage...its like she's the first kenpachi
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Old 2013-03-20, 09:17   Link #42
james0246
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Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
why the kishi have to go and give tobirama, hiraishin?? now im all like OOOOO!!!:
They were clearly different techniques. I expect that the Hiraishingiri is simply a Kenjutsu technique, some sort of fast piercing technique.
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Old 2013-03-20, 09:30   Link #43
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
They were clearly different techniques. I expect that the Hiraishingiri is simply a Kenjutsu technique, some sort of fast piercing technique.
Minato mentioned that Obito's Kamui was more advanced than both his and Tobirama's space time jutsu so it's obviously more than just speed and considering the names of their jutsu they should be somewhat related.
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
I meant Tobi's version. At that time, he was pretending to be Madara, so it would make sense to make Madara seem more noble. He also did that to manipulate Sasuke further and increase his hatred of Konoha and the Senju.
You misunderstand my meaning, I meant what part of Obito's story made Madara look nobler? I remember nothing in his story that painted Madara in a better light than this flashback.
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Old 2013-03-20, 09:44   Link #44
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
About the whole Hashirama sacrifices himself and then gets brought back to life theory, while it is possible, I don't think it's likely for the sole reason that When Madara fights Hashirama at the valley of the end, Hashirama's eyes aren't those of a person revived by edo tensei.
oh, well i at least didnt mean he'd do it right now. obviously he was a living human when he formed konoha and when he fought madara at the VotE. I just think this foreshadows how hashirama will eventually kill himself after believing madara to be dead. probably over some kind of promise he will make to either madara and/or the uchiha

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Minato mentioned that Obito's Kamui was more advanced than both his and Tobirama's space time jutsu so it's obviously more than just speed and considering the names of their jutsu they should be somewhat related.
yea, i think the lvl 2 technique that minato used to defeat obito is where minato advanced it beyond what tobirama did
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Old 2013-03-20, 09:44   Link #45
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Minato mentioned that Obito's Kamui was more advanced than both his and Tobirama's space time jutsu so it's obviously more than just speed and considering the names of their jutsu they should be somewhat related.
I clearly do not remember mention of a time-space technique that Tobirama used.

If true, then the technique was given literally no fanfare, so much so that I have to wonder why Kishimoto didn't just hold off the technique for the eventual final data book.
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Old 2013-03-20, 09:48   Link #46
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I clearly do not remember mention of a time-space technique that Tobirama used.
ch 502 p 11 it is mentioned by minato in thought
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Old 2013-03-20, 10:30   Link #47
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one thing that i don't get with this whole senju being stronger than the uchiha is how come their clan seemingly vanished from konoha? unlike the uchiha and all the other clans, the name senju became almost non-existent, especially in part 1. the name senju wasn't even mentioned until part 2. the senju brothers were simply called first and second, they didn't even have names! so what really happened to the senju clan?
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Old 2013-03-20, 10:49   Link #48
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
one thing that i don't get with this whole senju being stronger than the uchiha is how come their clan seemingly vanished from konoha? unlike the uchiha and all the other clans, the name senju became almost non-existent, especially in part 1. the name senju wasn't even mentioned until part 2. the senju brothers were simply called first and second, they didn't even have names! so what really happened to the senju clan?
I think it's going to be something simple and peaceful. The Senjuu will stop being Senjuu and simply become all the other clans in Konoha. More specifically, they will marry and be adopted into the various clans of Konoha, consequently losing their status as a warlike tribe and effectively becoming the new backbone of the entire village by bringing all the clans even closer together.

Or at least that is something I suspect Hashirama would do (disband the clan).
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Old 2013-03-20, 11:43   Link #49
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^yea that's the only option that will make sense to me i think. we'll then find out that they were there all along, just not in name. they are the sarutobis and namikazes and dare i say harunos...

the point of this flashback is to make sasuke (and us) emapthize with the senju for once after all the upsetting uchiha flashbacks we've seen. so if hashirama kills himself and the clan disbands and/or relinquishes their name, then sasuke will have a reason to stop hating given all the sacrifices that were made by his enemies
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Old 2013-03-20, 12:01   Link #50
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^Hashirama is also a God of Shinobi. So either the title means nothing, both are the best, Sarutobi is greater because he was called God first in the series, or Hashirama was greater since was called god more recently. Whatever the case, the issue isn'y so black and white.
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Old 2013-03-20, 13:18   Link #51
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I think you missed the point of that fight. People here keep making assumptions about Sharingan and Senju fights, thinking that it must have been epic because they were so elite compared to everyone.

The truth is though this is what real ninja fighting is about aside from the ridiculous god like fights we see in the present. This fight represents how the clans fought each other throughout history. In fact I dare say this is how MOST ninja fights are even today aside from the 'named' characters in the show.
The point of the chapters was to show how people were thinking back then about the ninja world, clans, family. And how the dream of these two children was related to the common thinking. It has nothing to do with ninja fighting, you can change whatever moves/jutsu they used into something else and it wouldn't change the plot itself. So my little rant was about the jutsu and moves shown briefly, the two clan leaders didn't seem to be strong at all based on what we saw. And because of that my complaint is that there's a huge gap in power between the level at which Hashirama and Madara are fighting and their fathers. So large gap that it makes their huge power unrealistic, something that doesn't fit into the real ninja fighing world. But i half-answered myself there, Kishimoto didn't want to waste more panels of the manga on the fathers so he made these minimalistic fighting scenes. My complaint was only that he could have added 1 or 2 panels to show some ass kicking with elemental and summoning jutsu and some blood/damage, but this is just my subjective opinion about the brief fight scene not meeting my expectations.
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Old 2013-03-20, 13:44   Link #52
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
oh, well i at least didnt mean he'd do it right now. obviously he was a living human when he formed konoha and when he fought madara at the VotE. I just think this foreshadows how hashirama will eventually kill himself after believing madara to be dead. probably over some kind of promise he will make to either madara and/or the uchiha
romeo and juliet much??...gross

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
yea, i think the lvl 2 technique that minato used to defeat obito is where minato advanced it beyond what tobirama did
yep yep
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Old 2013-03-20, 13:52   Link #53
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Or at least that is something I suspect Hashirama would do (disband the clan).
Actually a few weeks ago I had this idea, that maybe Hashirama will kill his whole clan to bring peace.
Maybe that's what he will offer Madara: His brother may stay alive but all the other Senju will be killed.
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Old 2013-03-20, 14:06   Link #54
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Actually a few weeks ago I had this idea, that maybe Hashirama will kill his whole clan to bring peace.
Maybe that's what he will offer Madara: His brother may stay alive but all the other Senju will be killed.
Right and Tobirama would agree with this. Honestly Hashirama may be more powerful then Tobirama and able to intimidate him with his chakra, but that doesn't guarantee control through fear. Hashirama planning to kill his entire clan would be outright betrayal and there's no way Tobirama would allow that.
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Old 2013-03-20, 14:12   Link #55
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
yea, i think the lvl 2 technique that minato used to defeat obito is where minato advanced it beyond what tobirama did
"Level 2" was a mistranslation, it was simply the 2nd step, ie throwing the seal toward the enemy.
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Hashirama is also a God of Shinobi. So either the title means nothing, both are the best, Sarutobi is greater because he was called God first in the series, or Hashirama was greater since was called god more recently. Whatever the case, the issue isn'y so black and white.
I really can't see any shade of gray in this to be honest. Sarutobi's greatness was simply retconed out of existence to the point that his nickname was given to someone else.
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Actually a few weeks ago I had this idea, that maybe Hashirama will kill his whole clan to bring peace.
Maybe that's what he will offer Madara: His brother may stay alive but all the other Senju will be killed.
That would make him more insane than all the Uchiha put together.
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Old 2013-03-20, 14:22   Link #56
james0246
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
I really can't see any shade of gray in this to be honest. Sarutobi's greatness was simply retconed out of existence to the point that his nickname was given to someone else.
Kishimoto could still surprise us and make Sarutobi relevant. It's unlikely, in fact almost impossible, but not 100%...

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That would make him more insane than all the Uchiha put together.
I think you mean more "emotional". Remember, being insane only means you are really really emotional in the Narutoverse.
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Old 2013-03-20, 14:30   Link #57
Mr. Johnny 5
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Hashirama is also a God of Shinobi. So either the title means nothing, both are the best, Sarutobi is greater because he was called God first in the series, or Hashirama was greater since was called god more recently. Whatever the case, the issue isn'y so black and white.
The thing is, during the recent ninja war when all the legends showed up. I believe it was Kakashi or Darui who mentioned to inspire his men that (previous) legends are usually or normally overrated. They arent as good as people tell the tales. It is a result of constantly exaggerating things.

If that was or is true then its normal to think that each kage was a god.
They surpassed the previous or outlived the previous and thus is stronger.
Right?

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I think it's going to be something simple and peaceful. The Senjuu will stop being Senjuu and simply become all the other clans in Konoha. More specifically, they will marry and be adopted into the various clans of Konoha, consequently losing their status as a warlike tribe and effectively becoming the new backbone of the entire village by bringing all the clans even closer together.

Or at least that is something I suspect Hashirama would do (disband the clan).
That seems unlikely since other clans were already present. Though it is true that among the Senju no one used wood like Hashirama. I also get the feeling that the Hyuuga is a result of an Senju with a Uchiha. And to keep the bloodline pure... incest was a normal thing.

They kept breeding and made even a difference like Branche and Head Families.
While not entirely insane (Uchiha) it seems logical that incest had to be done to keep the line pure same as for the Uchiha's.

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Originally Posted by Kona View Post
No Prime Hiruzen is the strongest. There is a very good reason why we didn't see him in his prime battlling. You save the best for last.

He is stronger that Hashirama, yes the truth hurts get over it.

He is the god of shinobi and is the strongest Hokage. It has been stated in the manga. There is nothing you can argue about that. Keep making up your fanfictions.
I'd say that almost every Kage has been called Unrivalled, the strongest, god, the breast of and the best of.
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Old 2013-03-20, 15:09   Link #58
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Of course but Hiruzen is still the strongest Hokage.
Well not according to recent chapters. And also lets be honest. Naruto himself now can wipe the floor with Sarutobi.
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Old 2013-03-20, 15:16   Link #59
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Well not according to recent chapters. And also lets be honest. Naruto himself now can wipe the floor with Sarutobi.
Edo is not at your full strength close to it and Sarutobi is very old so that's a maybe.
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Old 2013-03-20, 16:22   Link #60
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Moreover, we've only seen Hiruzen fight once, and that was when he was way past his prime. It's useless to compare him to someone like Naruto. You can't gauge his full power from that one battle.
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