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View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 31 57.41%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 13 24.07%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 5 9.26%
7 out of 10 : Good 2 3.70%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.85%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 3.70%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 54. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-03-19, 18:58   Link #101
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by merakses View Post
If he was indeed doing it in order to please his sponsors, his games were indirectly helping the revolution - they helped him build relations with his (pseudo) allies, and we can assume that those allies provided him with goodies and favors which helped the revolution.
The only individual we've seen materially aiding Makishima in his actions is Choe. And THEY'RE childhood friends. And some of the people Makishima has devoted quite a bit of time cultivating (the psycho lesbian school girl) have very little arguably to give to any kind of revolution in terms of skills or resources.
Quote:
Originally Posted by merakses View Post
Destroying the hyper-oats immediately would have gone against his desire to give the people a chance to express their free will.
If that's the case, wouldn't destroying the Hyper-Oats NOW go against his desire to give people a chance to express their free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by merakses View Post
Makishima is a person who values free will above everything else. It's only natural that he would rather not choose an option which will render most people's free will irrelevant, if he had a better alternative - even if that alternative was riskier. He is also overconfident - he probably never expected the assault on Nona Tower to fail.
Makishima mentioned he'd have been completely happy with total anarchy as a result of whatever they did in the tower. I don't think he's concerned at all about collateral damage. Going into the tower really came off more as doing a favor to his buddy Choe who was curious about what Sybil was (as was Makishima).
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Old 2013-03-19, 20:25   Link #102
karice67
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Why does it have to be exclusionary? Can't we just say that he was both a revolutionary and a homicidal maniac? Or perhaps a revolutionary who also revels in violence?

I would argue that Makishima is acting on more than one interest here - not only is he against the system and thus seeking to destroy it, he is also interested in what humans would do with the violent impulses that Sibyl suppresses.

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Originally Posted by merakses View Post
Finding out Sybil's true nature only gave him one more reason to destroy it. He already had plenty.

Actually, the hyper-oats plot seems more like a back-up plan he had created beforehand. He was surprisingly prepared to pull it off - he knew both where the professor is located, and how to adjust the virus in order to kill the hyper-oats. I don't really think that you can find the necessary information and devise an appropriate mutation in the span of two days, even if it the virus is easy to adjust.
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Which again cancels out the idea that Makishima is some kind of revolutionary. A revolutionary who realized he had the means of destroying the system would have immediately done that. Especially since the *backup plan* involved a far lower risk of detection, involved a softer target, and arguably would have had just as serious consequences as destroying the Sybil mainframe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by merakses View Post
Destroying the hyper-oats immediately would have gone against his desire to give the people a chance to express their free will.
Rather than anything about concern for the free will of others, I think Makishima may also have been interested in finding out exactly what the system actually was before destroying it.
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Old 2013-03-19, 23:52   Link #103
merakses
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Quote:
The only individual we've seen materially aiding Makishima in his actions is Choe. And THEY'RE childhood friends. And some of the people Makishima has devoted quite a bit of time cultivating (the psycho lesbian school girl) have very little arguably to give to any kind of revolution in terms of skills or resources.
Senguji was fairly close with Makishima, and he was chairman of the Teito Network Construction corporation. He said the following after killing Rikako:
"It seems you were a fox cub providing entertainment, but just like him, I'm one of the players who enjoy that entertainment."
Makishima spent much more time in direct contact with him than with Rikako and Mido. Their relationship was different than that between Makishima and his pawns. Also, Senguji is one of the players. There might have been many more. Finally, those players were probably the ones who enabled Makishima to create and mass produce the helmets - since he is unlikely to have had all the necessary resources to do that by himself.

Quote:
If that's the case, wouldn't destroying the Hyper-Oats NOW go against his desire to give people a chance to express their free will?
Destroying the Hyper-Oats will still eventually give at least some people the chance to express their free will. Under Sybil, everybody have given up their ability to choose and simply wait for the system to give them an answer. (at least that's the way he thinks)
To put it bluntly, directly destroying Sybil (and mass riots) > destroying food supply (and mass starvation) > leaving system as it is.

Quote:
Makishima mentioned he'd have been completely happy with total anarchy as a result of whatever they did in the tower. I don't think he's concerned at all about collateral damage. Going into the tower really came off more as doing a favor to his buddy Choe who was curious about what Sybil was (as was Makishima).
Well, he certainly was curious, but I don't think it was the main reason. Once again, total anarchy would have been a choice taken by the people; starvation wouldn't. As long as people were free to make their choice, Makishima would be content - regardless of what that choice turns out to be.

Quote:
Why does it have to be exclusionary? Can't we just say that he was both a revolutionary and a homicidal maniac? Or perhaps a revolutionary who also revels in violence?
Because every time we've seen, the violence has always been the means, not the desired end. Some quotes from episode 15:
"It seemed as if he was always trying to find answers through his crimes"
"If he was a criminal who'd find enjoyment in watching a riot like this, we could have arrested him more easily."

Quote:
I would argue that Makishima is acting on more than one interest here - not only is he against the system and thus seeking to destroy it, he is also interested in what humans would do with the violent impulses that Sibyl suppresses.
Still, that makes the second driving factor curiosity, not desire for random violence.
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Old 2013-03-21, 02:06   Link #104
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Why does it have to be exclusionary? Can't we just say that he was both a revolutionary and a homicidal maniac? Or perhaps a revolutionary who also revels in violence?
Agreed. My own estimation is that he's about three quarters Joker mixed with one quarter V (from V for Vendetta). Or maybe closer to half and half if you want to be more generous about the sincerity of his revolutionary goals.
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Old 2013-03-21, 03:11   Link #105
Dengar
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Originally Posted by merakses View Post
Senguji was fairly close with Makishima, and he was chairman of the Teito Network Construction corporation. He said the following after killing Rikako:
"It seems you were a fox cub providing entertainment, but just like him, I'm one of the players who enjoy that entertainment."
Makishima spent much more time in direct contact with him than with Rikako and Mido. Their relationship was different than that between Makishima and his pawns. Also, Senguji is one of the players. There might have been many more. Finally, those players were probably the ones who enabled Makishima to create and mass produce the helmets - since he is unlikely to have had all the necessary resources to do that by himself.


Destroying the Hyper-Oats will still eventually give at least some people the chance to express their free will. Under Sybil, everybody have given up their ability to choose and simply wait for the system to give them an answer. (at least that's the way he thinks)
To put it bluntly, directly destroying Sybil (and mass riots) > destroying food supply (and mass starvation) > leaving system as it is.


Well, he certainly was curious, but I don't think it was the main reason. Once again, total anarchy would have been a choice taken by the people; starvation wouldn't. As long as people were free to make their choice, Makishima would be content - regardless of what that choice turns out to be.


Because every time we've seen, the violence has always been the means, not the desired end. Some quotes from episode 15:
"It seemed as if he was always trying to find answers through his crimes"
"If he was a criminal who'd find enjoyment in watching a riot like this, we could have arrested him more easily."


Still, that makes the second driving factor curiosity, not desire for random violence.
You... make a lot of assumptions.. And preach them as if they are 100% proven true.

I mean, I agree that he's interested in free will and stuff, but where do you get this idea that he does not enjoy killing?

Last edited by Dengar; 2013-03-21 at 03:58.
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Old 2013-03-21, 06:50   Link #106
merakses
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I mean, I agree that he's interested in free will and stuff, but where do you get this idea that he does not enjoy killing?
Well, first of all, none of his murders was done without a particular purpose in mind. In the first part, he was testing his pawns by giving them the ability to kill. Beyond that, he only killed people as punishment or in order to further his own plan.

Second, take a look at his words and reactions every time after he kills/discards somebody:

"There's something that I've been searching for... that I want to know. For that purpose, I did whatever it took [...] You have knowledge of various avatars, and imitate them perfectly. You can become anyone, so I was very interested in what your personality was like. That's why I lent you my people and my assistance. [...] You can play any character, and yet, in the end, it turned out that you yourself are nobody. Your core personality is null. It's empty [...] Since you lacked a face, you were simply able to wear any kind of mask."
"Just in case, I'd like to ask you a question before this is all over. Rikako Oryo, do you yourself realise how you came to disappoint me? [...] Well, if you don't realise it, I guess you can't even reflect on it. As I suspected, it seems that I can't expect any more growth from you."
"[...] But from now on, it won't be just a game. [...] You're exactly right. I'll see your life's splendor until the very end."
"How regrettable. How very regrettable, Inspector Akane Tsunemori. You disappointed me. So I have to punish you. Regret your helplessness, and feel despair."
"This was a tool to promote awareness... for people to live like human beings. People have been mislead by Sybil and have become unable to properly evaluate the danger in front of them. In that sense, you guys are as foolish as those pitiful sheep.
Alas... It really is... a terrible shame."
"I had thought this would end in a less disappointing manner... but even so, for the first time in a long while, I was able to forget my boredom. I appreciate it."

Each and every time, the emotion he expresses after the kill isn't pleasure; it's disappointment (the only exception being Senguji, where he actually admired the cyborg's choice to stay and fight even with the stakes upped) The only murders I didn't cover here were the agriculture professor (because we didn't really see Makishima's reaction directly after the murder), and Touma (because although Maki was pretty happy while killing him, there is a much more plausible explanation than Maki liking murder in general)

Third, if Makishima was a person who enjoyed murder for it's own sake, he wouldn't have been qualified as a criminally asymptomatic - Senguji only killed for sport/recreation, and he was flagged, so simply enjoying murder doesn't constitute a mindset too alien for Sybil to judge.
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Old 2013-03-21, 12:29   Link #107
Dengar
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Ok, so just becaus he has a reason for it suddenly makes him a sane person.
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