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Old 2013-03-20, 16:24   Link #61
Alchemist007
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Did the battle at the Valley of the End take place before or after this request (in which I assume Hashirama is about to kill himself). I thought it was after but if he dies now...
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Old 2013-03-20, 18:38   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Kona View Post
No Prime Hiruzen is the strongest. There is a very good reason why we didn't see him in his prime battlling. You save the best for last.

He is stronger than Hashirama, yes the truth hurts get over it.
When the author changes his mind, its no longer a matter of opinion. Its a matter of fact. Sorry to say, 3rd is not as strong as he once was. He had the title of God, then kimmish was,"you know what? 1st hokage being a God makes more sense" and bam instant recon.
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Old 2013-03-20, 19:55   Link #63
Haloid
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Originally Posted by Kona View Post
The manga stated that Sarutobi in his prime is the strongest hokage. Now if you want to argue against a fact go ahead. Accept the reality and move on.
Sarutobi may have been said to have been the strongest in part one but now Kishimoto is saying Hashirama Senju is the strongest. The fact that Sarutobi was formerly stated as being the strongest in manga doesn't undue the retcon that was just performed by the mangaka of this manga. Unless we're told otherwise we have to go by what the mangaka is currently telling us and unfortunately we're being told that Sarutobi was second best.
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Old 2013-03-20, 20:00   Link #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kona View Post
The manga stated that Sarutobi in his prime is the strongest hokage. Now if you want to argue against a fact go ahead. Accept the reality and move on.
I'm not sure accusing everybody of denial when you refuse to see that what once was years ago may no longer be relevant and that many things have changed since the Chunin exam is a convincing argument.
Incidentally the "manga stated this or that" bit isn't a very good point, the manga seldom states anything, characters do. And those characters may be mistaken or lying.
In this case you can ignore the power inflation, the retcons and the author obvious intent in displaying the fact that Madara and Hashirama have been and still are unmatched in power if you wish but the statement from Iruka you go by is easily countered by the fact that it was also stated that people believed the stories of Madara and Hashirama's power to be a myth. Something that simply wasn't possible. Even Oonoki a Kage who was alive at the time and who actually fought Madara didn't realize the reality of this power.

Long story short, yes Iruka said that but realizing that this statement no longer hold much weight by now isn't arguing against a fact, it's basic reading comprehension.
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Originally Posted by Haloid View Post
unfortunately we're being told that Sarutobi was second best.
We're not even told that, we just don't know where he stands except below Hashirama like pretty much everybody in history save for the original Rikudou Sennin and possibly Edo Madara.
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Old 2013-03-20, 20:27   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Kona View Post
Thank you for the fanfiction.




Thank you for the fanfiction.






I'm going to post this since a lot of people have reading comprehension
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-i...aruto-1950.jpg


Kishi himself said Sarutobi is the strongest. It must be hard to accept the truth which is Prime Sarutobi is the strongest Hokage. Nothing else needs to be said about this.
You got the right chapter but you're missing the point of what we're saying. That statement has no bearing on what Kishimoto wants to write now. He wants and he has written Hashirama as the strongest so Sarutobi was retconned. If you want to express your disapproval of that then go ahead but don't act like the blatantly obvious doesn't exist.
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Old 2013-03-20, 20:53   Link #66
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^you have become an official troll at this point Kona. the manga also stated that tobi was madara (many, many, many times and from various characters including himself...)

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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
Actually a few weeks ago I had this idea, that maybe Hashirama will kill his whole clan to bring peace.
Maybe that's what he will offer Madara: His brother may stay alive but all the other Senju will be killed.
this is ridiculous. you think hashirama would kill his own clan? there is no way that is happening. he is self-less to the point that he would kill himself, but nobody else

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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
Moreover, we've only seen Hiruzen fight once, and that was when he was way past his prime. It's useless to compare him to someone like Naruto. You can't gauge his full power from that one battle.
actually we saw him NOT fight against the kyuubi because he was pretty much useless. remember all he could do when the kyuubi attacked konoha? basically he just used enma's power to push the fox away. it was minato alone who managed any real fight with the kyuubi. therefore we can compare hiruzen to naruto who weilds the kyuubi's power. he would have no chance. zero

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Did the battle at the Valley of the End take place before or after this request (in which I assume Hashirama is about to kill himself). I thought it was after but if he dies now...
the VotE fight takes place after konoha was formed and was the believed end of madara. hashirama cant kill himself right now or things will get weird with edo-tensei and people not realizing he's a zombie... lol
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Old 2013-03-20, 20:54   Link #67
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I think it's going to be something simple and peaceful. The Senjuu will stop being Senjuu and simply become all the other clans in Konoha. More specifically, they will marry and be adopted into the various clans of Konoha, consequently losing their status as a warlike tribe and effectively becoming the new backbone of the entire village by bringing all the clans even closer together.

Or at least that is something I suspect Hashirama would do (disband the clan).
hmmm... i wouldn't have a problem with this theory if the senju brothers existed more than a 100 years ago. a lot can happen around that time, a strong clan could die out, become less prominent or adopted into different clans as you said. but they were so many of them still during madara's time, the clan was practically flourishing compared to the uchiha and they were led well by hashirama and tobirama. if there was any clan that should have died out, it would be the uchiha, they were defeated by the senju in the war, and even became leaderless when madara left konoha.

disbanding the clan is possible but it wouldn't make much sense if you consider tobirama's personality. and how about the rest of the senju? i doubt they would agree to that so easily.

i hope kishi could shed some light on this in the following chapters. i've always wondered about the fate of the senju and like you i considered this very same theory until the last few chapters when kishi showed us how dominating the senju really were and how madara was almost killed by the senju brothers. that's when i started doubting this theory.
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Old 2013-03-20, 20:58   Link #68
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
disbanding the clan is possible but it wouldn't make much sense if you consider tobirama's personality. and how about the rest of the senju? i doubt they would agree to that so easily.
tobirama is harsh, but he does seem to put the village above everything else. if he saw it fit for the senju to disband to save the village, i think there's a decent chance he would do it. especially if it was hashirama's dying wish or something like that
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Old 2013-03-20, 21:18   Link #69
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
tobirama is harsh, but he does seem to put the village above everything else. if he saw it fit for the senju to disband to save the village, i think there's a decent chance he would do it. especially if it was hashirama's dying wish or something like that
if that's the case, i think it's kinda stupid considering they did it because of a sore loser like madara who seemingly wanted peace anyway. not to mention that tobirama never really trusted the uchiha despite their supposed "sacrifices", he even antagonized (i doubt purposely) them which led to their eventual rebellion. so the war never really ended, the battles just became more political.
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Old 2013-03-20, 22:21   Link #70
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we know the village gets formed so I'm thinking talk no jutsu is used next chapter...it would have worked the day tobirama struck izuna, but izuna snapped madara out of it...

meanwhile, tobirama develops edo tensei and shares its secrets with madara (he knows the seals)...who knows maybe madara raises izuna from the dead who then reminds him of his role as an avenger...
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Old 2013-03-21, 01:17   Link #71
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
this is ridiculous. you think hashirama would kill his own clan? there is no way that is happening. he is self-less to the point that he would kill himself, but nobody else
IMHO he is not selfless. He is doing everything he can to reach his goal of a peaceful world. And if it's necessary to kill a clan for this goal, he may think about it.

I don't really expect this to happen, but I think from a storytelling point of view it would be a really interessting turn of events, especially because of the paralells to Itachi's situation.
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Old 2013-03-21, 01:23   Link #72
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
^yea that's the only option that will make sense to me i think. we'll then find out that they were there all along, just not in name. they are the sarutobis and namikazes and dare i say harunos...

the point of this flashback is to make sasuke (and us) emapthize with the senju for once after all the upsetting uchiha flashbacks we've seen. so if hashirama kills himself and the clan disbands and/or relinquishes their name, then sasuke will have a reason to stop hating given all the sacrifices that were made by his enemies
This might sound very drastic... but what if Hashirama or Tobirama killed off the Senju Clan the same way Itachi killed off the Uchiha? After all, it was the Uchiha that were more noble and compassionate while the Senju were the power seekers.

It really doesn't make sense that the Senju were the creators and rulers of the village but there was an entire Uchiha clan living in the Village but no Senju clan. At this point in the story, Kishi can't introduce a whole new village or land where all the Senju live, so i really wonder what happened.

Also would like to know how Madara would continuously evolve and get stronger, but still be no match for Hashirama. As little kids, Hashirama was stronger, Madara awakens sharingan, still weaker than Hashirama, awakens Mangekyou (I assume this happened) still weaker than Hashirama, gets EMS and we see him with Susanoo, still loses to Hashirama. I hope there is similar evolution in Senju DNA.

And I just started wondering, in all the years after the So6P, no Uchiha has ever married a Senju? That's all it would take for another So6P isn't it?
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Old 2013-03-21, 01:58   Link #73
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
actually we saw him NOT fight against the kyuubi because he was pretty much useless. remember all he could do when the kyuubi attacked konoha? basically he just used enma's power to push the fox away. it was minato alone who managed any real fight with the kyuubi. therefore we can compare hiruzen to naruto who weilds the kyuubi's power. he would have no chance. zero
Um, comparing Hiruzen as an old man to a current Naruto after power inflation and all the retcons isn't proving anything. And, yes he did fight against the Kyuubi. Right upon sensing it's chakra he was suited up and ready to go before he could even be warned by anbu. He essentially did the same thing Minato did: summon his contract beast and engage. I don't think he could be as effective as Minato (he was a retired old man after all), yet Minato didn't have many options either. Hiruzen would have probably ended up using the death seal just as Minato did, which we know he is capable of using.
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Old 2013-03-21, 02:57   Link #74
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they were cast out of the village or something like that. remember those remnant senju ninja's who tried to take out danzo?
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Old 2013-03-21, 05:52   Link #75
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they were cast out of the village or something like that. remember those remnant senju ninja's who tried to take out danzo?
Those weren't Senju ninja's. They were ANBU from the Land of Woods which was annihilated by Root. And the Land of Woods has no relation to the Senju whatsoever.Please read more carefully before you make a statement.

Also, I like how everyone here seems to know what Kishimoto wants to write. Hiruzen was called the God of Shinobi, Hashirama was called the God of Shinobi. Does that mean Kishi changed his mind? Or does it mean Hashirama was the God of Shinobi in HIS time, but once Hiruzen was in his prime he took over the title? We don't know. I don't, and you don't either, so for the love of Christ stop pretending like you do.
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Old 2013-03-21, 06:41   Link #76
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Wow idk where the fk I got that from then. That chapter always been a niggling after thought for me but thanks for the correction. I might've read a bad translation, or I might just be mud
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Old 2013-03-21, 10:56   Link #77
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
Also, I like how everyone here seems to know what Kishimoto wants to write. Hiruzen was called the God of Shinobi, Hashirama was called the God of Shinobi. Does that mean Kishi changed his mind? Or does it mean Hashirama was the God of Shinobi in HIS time, but once Hiruzen was in his prime he took over the title? We don't know. I don't, and you don't either, so for the love of Christ stop pretending like you do.
this is a case of us having to prove a negative which is always unnecessary. there has never been any mention of 'god of shinobi' being a title that is passed down through the generations. if it was something like 'kenpachi' from bleach then we surely would have heard more about it and there would be a 'god of shinobi' right now for this current generation wouldn't there? don't forget that even the young generation (suigetsu) has been retconned to think of hashirama as the 'god of shinobi' right now. he didn't think of hiruzen as that title (which would make more sense given his age) because kishi no longer thinks of hiruzen with that title and he's trying to force it on us that it is and always was hashirama. people who think kishi changed his mind are looking at the actual words on the pages, not making up theories based on words we would have liked him to write
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Old 2013-03-21, 13:03   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Haloid View Post
You got the right chapter but you're missing the point of what we're saying. That statement has no bearing on what Kishimoto wants to write now. He wants and he has written Hashirama as the strongest so Sarutobi was retconned. If you want to express your disapproval of that then go ahead but don't act like the blatantly obvious doesn't exist.
I would also add to what you answered also this:
Looking at that manga page it just says that the 3rd hokage was the strongest of all. What all? All kages, that means the 5 kages of the 5 ninja villages. It wouldn't make any sense to compare him to the 1st for example because they lived in different times so they could have never met to fight or even practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5 View Post
I'd say that almost every Kage has been called Unrivalled, the strongest, god, the breast of and the best of.
The last part has to be Tsunade only
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Old 2013-03-21, 13:25   Link #79
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
this is a case of us having to prove a negative which is always unnecessary. there has never been any mention of 'god of shinobi' being a title that is passed down through the generations. if it was something like 'kenpachi' from bleach then we surely would have heard more about it and there would be a 'god of shinobi' right now for this current generation wouldn't there? don't forget that even the young generation (suigetsu) has been retconned to think of hashirama as the 'god of shinobi' right now. he didn't think of hiruzen as that title (which would make more sense given his age) because kishi no longer thinks of hiruzen with that title and he's trying to force it on us that it is and always was hashirama. people who think kishi changed his mind are looking at the actual words on the pages, not making up theories based on words we would have liked him to write
Right, and in which chapter does Suigetsu refer to Hashirama as the God of Shinobi?

And obviously it's not a title that's just passed through to every next dude or girl who becomes Hokage. But that doesn't mean that only person can have the title.

You would do well to remember that the Sage of the Six Paths has been referred to as the God of Shinobi as well. I don't suppose you want to try to argue that Hashirama is stronger then him?
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Old 2013-03-21, 14:11   Link #80
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It's probably worth knowing that there is no definite article in Japanese, it's impossible to concretely distinguish between THE God of Shinobi and A God of Shinobi.

So it's most likely that Kishi is just referring to a category of shinobi ability.
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