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Old 2012-04-05, 04:21   Link #41
0utf0xZer0
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There's an interesting duality in that "moe anime" tend to either feature girls being either extremely charming and cheerful or going through hell.

Personally, I associate moe with charming, cheerful girls and a warm fuzzy feeling. However, when a girl with moe potential is distraught, it's usually deeply moving. It's an entirely separate feeling though.

I'm also not sure I'd call the feeling protective. I usually want to see the girl get hurt - not for sadistic reasons though, more like a masochism by proxy because of what it makes me feel. I suppose that others may have a different stance on that though.

P.S. I remember that on the occasions that I've discussed Matsuri Shihou - one of my favourite characters from a moe anime - with other fans, some of them seem to like her as a tragic character, which would of course probably involve the second feeling. Whereas for me, I strongly associate Matsuri with liveliness and charm regardless of what she goes through at times in the series.
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Old 2012-10-02, 08:25   Link #42
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The funny thing is actually living in a Japanese speaking culture, you never hear the term moe. Everyone uses the word "kawaii" to the point that it is near-sickening. Being that it is considered a more feminine word, its typically the women who use it (and drag out the last vowel sound -_-) while the men stick to a rushed utteration of "sugoi" that comes out sounding more like "sugeh." Honestly, it wasn't until i started getting into the otaku culture that I even heard moe.
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Old 2012-10-02, 10:25   Link #43
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I think there's no clear cut definition of moe unlike kawaii as many have said. Moe is used to describe charming to me, depends on the character really and preference.
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Old 2012-10-02, 14:34   Link #44
NinjaRealist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ossan sasha haisai View Post
The funny thing is actually living in a Japanese speaking culture, you never hear the term moe. Everyone uses the word "kawaii" to the point that it is near-sickening. Being that it is considered a more feminine word, its typically the women who use it (and drag out the last vowel sound -_-) while the men stick to a rushed utteration of "sugoi" that comes out sounding more like "sugeh." Honestly, it wasn't until i started getting into the otaku culture that I even heard moe.
Super interesting post. Love the practical Japanese usage explanation.
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Old 2012-10-03, 00:00   Link #45
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For a clear disconnect between moe and cute (kawaii) just look at the series Kaiji.

No one, ever would call the style cute (well, maybe Fujoushi) but it is very moe. The moe here is instilling protective feelings from the viewer. Kaiji is going through hell, and the viewer is intended to have protective feelings for Kaiji, and to see him get out of whatever predicament he ends up in.
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Old 2012-10-03, 15:54   Link #46
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Ah, yes, who could turn this poor moe Kaiji away?

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Old 2012-10-04, 18:05   Link #47
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Only works for the opposite gender though
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Old 2012-10-04, 19:08   Link #48
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Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Only works for the opposite gender though
No way.

Poor Kaiji, I just want to give him a pat on the back and tell him it'll be alright!

I don't think I'm allowed to though, if I recall correctly the Japanese Kaiji commercial told me that the show is the "anti-moe anime."
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Old 2012-10-05, 15:31   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
No way.

Poor Kaiji, I just want to give him a pat on the back and tell him it'll be alright!

I don't think I'm allowed to though, if I recall correctly the Japanese Kaiji commercial told me that the show is the "anti-moe anime."
I'd comfort Mami though
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Old 2013-03-18, 06:10   Link #50
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Kawaii is dead, Long Live Moe?

This is going to be a very generalized question. But, is Kawaii dead in Japan, and has moe superseded Kawaii? I've noticed is dead in the English Speaking anime community, since... well an Internet Eternity. Is moe deeper, broader and more complex as a concept than Kawaii? Is Kawaii a sub-set swallowed into the broader umbrella of moe?

And do you think a Post Moe era is possible?
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Old 2013-03-18, 09:38   Link #51
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^No. What Japanophiles, including but not limited to anime fans, call the kawaii aesthetic is alive and well today in Japan.

However, the general Japanese public don't always understand what "moe" means -- it's a subculture word -- whereas "kawaii" is positively ubiquitous, as it's a daily use common word. Don't make the mistake of thinking that the otaku culture equals all of Japan.

Naturally, in otaku parlance, moe and kawaii are really rather interchangeable to a point. There are times when you can't replace one word with another, and there are times when you can.

Some example uses:

If you think about cosplaying maids or AKB48, yeah that's kawaii and moe. Don't bother distinguishing semantics there.

You can't say (without irony) that Fist of the North Star is kawaii, but I'm sure someone out there is totally moe for it. Oh, and if you say you're imouto-moe, you like younger sisters you damn pervert.

On the other hand, a typical Japanese (female) teenager on a window shopping trip will say "kawaii~" at a cute handbag or stuffed animal. But unless she is a fujoshi she will most likely have no idea what you're on about with your "moe" stuff ("What are you talking about, what's on fire [moeru]?"). Moreover, calling children "kawaii" comes naturally (they're cute...technically speaking), while saying you're "moe" for children is...um...dependent on context interpretation.

_______

But as for the rest of the thread that this question is merged into, I'm of the opinion that moe has a use as an import word for a concept that is rather difficult to shoehorn into an existing English word (a.f.k.'s "turn-on" was actually pretty clever and conveys the right meaning for the translated scene, though not for all usages of the word). On the other hand, "kawaii" literally means cute; you'd only use that word legitimately in English if you're trying to draw attention to a certain kind of Japanese cuteness aesthetic.
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Old 2013-03-18, 11:19   Link #52
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
This is going to be a very generalized question. But, is Kawaii dead in Japan, and has moe superseded Kawaii? I've noticed is dead in the English Speaking anime community, since... well an Internet Eternity. Is moe deeper, broader and more complex as a concept than Kawaii? Is Kawaii a sub-set swallowed into the broader umbrella of moe?
"Kawaii" is still used all the time in anime - it's probably far more common than "moe". I wouldn't be surprised if it's the more common term in Nico comments as well. As for the English-speaking community, we can use the word "cute" instead of "kawaii", so the absence of the latter doesn't mean a whole lot. Why use a Japanese term when the English one means exactly the same thing?
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Old 2013-03-18, 14:18   Link #53
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Any pack of Japanese women spotting a kitty and you'll be buried in squeals of "Kawaii!!!" The word hasn't "gone away", it is as mainstream as you can get. And it simply means "so cute I want to squeal". There's even official government entities that use the concept to boost tourism.

sigh ... "moe" is a feeling evoked in the viewer and though cuteness can evoke moe in the viewer, anything that evokes the "blooming feelings and desire to protect" has generated moe. There is no direct translation for it and as Irenicus says, it is valuable as an import word for that reason (the same as tsunami or sushi or umami).

There is an overlap of something cute can generate moe ... but people can be moe about things that other people don't find cute at all.

Last edited by Vexx; 2013-03-18 at 14:30.
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Old 2013-03-18, 20:36   Link #54
larethian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
"Kawaii" is still used all the time in anime - it's probably far more common than "moe". I wouldn't be surprised if it's the more common term in Nico comments as well. As for the English-speaking community, we can use the word "cute" instead of "kawaii", so the absence of the latter doesn't mean a whole lot. Why use a Japanese term when the English one means exactly the same thing?
Kawaii is a normal word used by normal people, while Moe is an Otaku vocab. If the anime is depicting normal people and not Otakus, of course you won't hear 'moe' in it.


Oh btw, I've seen Fujoshi call Kuroko Moe
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Old 2013-03-19, 03:15   Link #55
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Any pack of Japanese women spotting a kitty and you'll be buried in squeals of "Kawaii!!!" The word hasn't "gone away", it is as mainstream as you can get. And it simply means "so cute I want to squeal".
I'm not sure moe means anything different when an otaku blurts out moe.

I tend to agree with Irenicus that as the word is used, sometimes it's completely interchangeable with kawaii and sometimes isn't, leading to some confusion. And when I throw ossan's post about kawaii being quite feminine into the analysis, the reason why otaku might often use it as a stand in for kawaii becomes clear.

Which, of course, can create confusion with the feeling/subculturalist quasi-religious experience sense that many of us use the term for.

P.S.
Also, regarding "blooming (burning too, remember?) feelings and desire to protect" thing - for me, there's an actual sensation I associate with moe, which in a strong case will manifest in a warm gut/melted brain kind of feeling. And I still find that my feelings towards a moe character are more likely to take the form of compassion, being charmed, or "adoration" (in the sense of "bask in her glorious precense") than a desire to protect. Sorry, but for some reason constructing it that way irks me. It probably doesn't help that I usually do hold my peace when someone explains it that way at anime club meetings because I fear coming across as a blathering idiot.
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Old 2013-03-19, 03:28   Link #56
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Anything cute could be kawaii, but moe are only for living things.....IMHO...

You can't call a key chain kawaii and moe at the same times, as you call a girl...
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Old 2013-03-19, 06:55   Link #57
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I prefer to use kawaii.
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Old 2013-03-19, 08:49   Link #58
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The main issue I have with the "desire to protect" construction is that there's many anime girls that I find moe that, well, simply don't need protection.

Does Yui Hirasawa need protection? What does she need to be protected from? Nodoka? Her sister?

I'd only feel a desire to protect someone if I felt that someone was in actual danger, or likely to be subjected to significant harm.


With the above in mind, I have to admit that for most of the times that I use "moe", "kawaii" would work just as well.
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Old 2013-03-22, 04:49   Link #59
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Regarding "moe", i just wished Zac Bertschy from ANN to stop bitching this thing. It's just getting very annoying recently
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Old 2013-03-24, 15:48   Link #60
Random32
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Originally Posted by backbone View Post
Regarding "moe", i just wished Zac Bertschy from ANN to stop bitching this thing. It's just getting very annoying recently
Or you can just stop reading the only anime site that is worse than Sankaku Complex.

Quote:
The main issue I have with the "desire to protect" construction is that there's many anime girls that I find moe that, well, simply don't need protection.
Quote:
I'd only feel a desire to protect someone if I felt that someone was in actual danger, or likely to be subjected to significant harm.
Protection from hypothetical harm.

A lot of us would try to protect people in the spur of the moment if they were about to be subjected to major harm regardless of how moemoe they are.

moe is when you feel the want to guard them from hypothetical harm.
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