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Old 2013-03-25, 01:08   Link #32061
GuestSpeaker
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Quote:
postmortem lividity and rigor mortis
Actually I believe lividity is the colour (or the process of gaining the colour) your body takes on when blood etc drains into the lowest parts of the body at the time of death and settles there (it then sort of clots, which is how you can tell if a body has been moved a while after death). So after a while someone who died on their back will have extensive bluish purple mottling (like a really big bruise) on their backs.

While rigor mortis is the stiffness the body goes through due to no longer producing the energy required to move muscles (they won't relax until more energy is available for the next movement, even if they don't need it yet). This passes once the muscles in the body have begun themselves to break down.
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:43   Link #32062
Renall
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It's more... real as far as I'm involved. To have Beato wash it all away so effortlessly in the novel... it just didn't feel fitting, it reduced the whole of Yasu's drama and the pain she'd been put through.
Having looked it back over, I think the biggest problem with everything from basically the start of the party through to the first goat attack is horrifically rushed. So much time is spent on the stupid riddles that the in-between reward scenes are ridiculously short, the battle focuses too long on the goat part, and the Battler/Erika and Beatrice/Ange confrontations are literally shunted offscreen to the point that their resolutions are laughably pointless, because we don't actually see the struggle itself.

At least with the Battler/Erika one we get answers (but barely any reasoning process, which is what we paid to see!). The Ange/Beatrice thing is basically "Man, we just had a pretty awesome fight." "Yeah, I'd hate to be anybody who missed that!" There's no investment in the stakes like in any of the previous red/blue fights because it's barely clear what anybody is doing, why it had to happen the way it did, or how any of this is going to help anybody (and it basically doesn't). The first goat battle is better for the Will and Dlanor action, but it shouldn't have been the primary focus of the chapters (or it should've still been there, but the other parts be as well-developed).

The riddle game structure is just really bad and in getting away from it the manga (which reduces the riddles to one sentence) improved the narrative flow dramatically and opened up more space for elaboration on the actually interesting parts (like Beatrice/Natsuhi, Rudolf/Kyrie, etc.). Although I haven't seen it get to the part with the fights in it, so I suppose we'll see.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:20   Link #32063
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I dunno, the riddle game part is one of my favourite things in the series...It had a really great relaxing atmosphere about it that was kind of beautiful, I thought. The 'reward scenes' were pretty good really, Rudolf/Kyrie's was the only one that I thought was pretty blah (mostly because that was just a really useless and contrived subplot in the first place). I mean, I know not much is HAPPENING throughout the riddle parts, but that's sort of the point; it creates the feeling of Ange just having fun with her family, the tension gone, everyone finally able to act like a normal family for once. Of course I don't know how the manga does it, so it may well be better, but I wouldn't say the original version was bad or anything.

That said, I totally agree that everything AFTER that part is rushed. The goat battles are really not good at all; they could have been epic but they're invariably disappointing and repetitive, and don't really provide anything to get emotionally or intelectually invested in. Pretty much the only part I really like in the second half of EP8 is the Tohya/Ikuko story, which deserved much more coverage than it got. Oh, and the part with Ange apologising to Eva and Maria in the Golden Land was nice as well I guess.
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Old 2013-03-26, 19:39   Link #32064
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Personally I didn't like much the quiz part.
Honestly I wasn't interested at the moment at playing at a game of riddle and Ange just... didn't seem Ange (little Ange wouldn't have been capable to answer to most of those questions and it's never implied it's teen Ange that answers besides teen Ange had already made clear she 'didn't want to play').

It's much better the parallel that the manga create, with Ange playing hide and seek mirroring her finding back her family that to have Ange figure the answer of usually random questions unrelated to her situation (apart the last one which was also kept in the manga...).

I agree on the bonus scenes being too short and not emotional enough on topics that were supposed to be emotional. Kinzo and Genji's friendship was brushed away, Beato was way too mature and understanding of Natsuhi's case, Rudolf mentioning that Asumu wasn't that forgiving as she looked seemed completely out of place and random (how had this relevance to the plot? had Asumu done something? Why should we care? And considering what Rudolf did, really, I don't blame her...) and Kyrie's reaction was a lot less emotional than the one in the manga. She's just... shocked. And Shannon and Kanon declaring they'll have a fight... another thing that felt random. As well as Battler's interaction with Shannon later on.

In short my feelings were that the plot had been sacrificed to focus more on the quizzes. Now... the quizzes weren't bad but I wasn't reading Umineko for those random quizzes so my enjoyement of the quizzes just couldn't match up the disappointment for the plot.

Also the battle with the goats... well, first of all I don't like much to read action scenes. I prefer to see them. Second i would have enjoyed it more if it had given hints or, at least, a little more of a challenge to the guys. They could even keep up with Erika and tons and tons of goats who were capable to eat the gameboard but not them!

Well, the Ange/Beato battle was interesting as it presented Ange's point of view over how Beato was 'starving her to death without even touching her'. I'm not really a fan of logic battles of this kind but, at least, this one was a nice comparison to Ange's situation although I would have preferred if it had been developed more. I mean, Ange in that moment wanted to learn the truth and then die. It would have been interesting if it had gotten developed more.

Also, I stay my case, Ange was a lot cooler in Ep 4 than for most of Ep 8.
They don't even seem the same person. Well, at least the manga depicts much better how Ange is still, inside of herself, a child crying for her family to come back.

Will and Lion's presence felt very much like a bonus. Sure, Will fights and he's cool but that's all. Lion is there to be the optimistic one and to meet Beato (unnecessary, we already saw his meeting with Clair and it was better). The plot wouldn't be damaged by them being scrapped out.

Tohya/Ikuko was good, though it opened up more questions. I mean Ikuko was way too conveniently a very odd person, it leads easily to think there's something behind this but, if there is... well, we'll never know.
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Old 2013-03-27, 15:51   Link #32065
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It's much better the parallel that the manga create, with Ange playing hide and seek mirroring her finding back her family that to have Ange figure the answer of usually random questions unrelated to her situation (apart the last one which was also kept in the manga...).
Though I have to say that the Chiru manga in general, not so much EP5 and 6, but definitely 7 and 8, is better at depicting certain things that were rather unclear in the novel. It might be part of the medium or part of Ryukishi's high aspirations of what scenes he wants to set, but sometimes the written text could not fully transfer what he might have wanted to tell (going by his words that he will have more elements inserted as the manga proceeds).

I also felt this when continuing to read the EP7 manga, where Claire's stage production is much more like that, an actual show, with backdrops and character entrances. In the novel it was hard to distinguish between a full switch to a new setting like it often happens during the series (e.g. metaworld) or this if it was intended.
Also it would have clearly helped if he had given a little more thought to depiction of mimics and gestures, as the manga paints a way clearer picture of how characters seem to think about their actions. Like it seems very likely that it was the other Fukuin servants who hid the duster and just set Yasu up. A minor element, but important in the general characterization.

Also, going back to the question whether Shannon was a real person (again, I know), I think the manga does imply it in several stages. Like Yasu saying that she wanted to become like her so much, implying that she might even go so far as become her. Several actions, which imply there being a Shannon who is far less perfect than Yasu sees her, like leaving her at the chapel with the other servants, who likely set the whole thing up, and looking at her as if she pities her.
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Old 2013-03-27, 15:59   Link #32066
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Out of curiosity, how much of the additional information and concepts in the manga come directly from Ryukishi? I presume he does have editorial oversight of things and that the manga isn't just making stuff up out of the blue, but how many of these things are actual suggestions he's making and how much of those are things he intended but couldn't properly convey, or things he thought up after the fact?
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Old 2013-03-27, 16:42   Link #32067
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Out of curiosity, how much of the additional information and concepts in the manga come directly from Ryukishi?
It's a good question and also why I always have to consider my position with the comment "If it is as it seems to be". He still seems to hold creative control over it and the comparatively slow release of the manga would imply that at least somebody is proof reading the stuff. Also he said once that he is planning to make a more proper solution out of Will and Claire's question round and has talked about these ideas with the mangaka as well.

It is of course possible that these are all false assumptions and all the mangaka are making stuff up as they go, but considering that so far neither inconsistencies nor complaints from Ryukishi himself came up, it is at least within our hand to treat them as canon.
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Old 2013-03-28, 17:06   Link #32068
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Good Evening/Morning/Day depending on where you live.

Just thought I hear your opinion on this.

Beatrice mentioned Krauss' Blood having German heritage.
If you put Krauss in german you get Klaus.

Klaus name meaning is something like Victory.
Rudolfs name meaning is Honor,Glory but also hails from Wolf.
Evas naming is "Living One" or "Life".
Rosa means Rose as we know, a symbol of love.

Let's take the latter literal for a bit.
Rosa went mad at Maria again leaving her in the rain.
She was there for an hour looking for her "Rose".
Rosa comments that Maria will search something even if Spears fall from the sky and even if doesn't exist.

Is it too farfetched to say that:
She spent an hour not looking for a true rose but truly something that didn't exist, in EP 1's case, Love.
Or much rather, she stayed in the Garden awaiting her Mother to return and that the actual Rose what she searches for is her Mothers Love?

Wonder if there is meaning behind the others name as Kinzo got furious that Rosa named her daughter not him.
Ironically:
Maria can mean "Wished for Child".
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Old 2013-03-29, 05:22   Link #32069
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Evas naming is "Living One" or "Life".
The best naming pun in Umineko. Everyone go home, we're done here.
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Old 2013-04-02, 15:01   Link #32070
Kiltias
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The best naming pun in Umineko. Everyone go home, we're done here.
I find it better that the 3 oldest Cousins refer to their standings and rank in the family.

Jessica is Wealth.
George is Farmer.
Battler sounds exactly how an English would pronounce Bettler a german word for the poor.

That's a play on the social pyramid and their rank as Jessica>George>Battler.
Besides, one could argue that Battler has among the lowest of standing in the family seeing he was born by someone not even wed into the Ushiromiya and is a result of I think it's called Adultery in english.

I'm interest if Kinzo gave them those name seeing as he is the one who originally named Rosa's Daughter, she said she had changed it to Maria on her own defying Kinzo who was furious over it.
It's why Rosa once harbored the thought the Epitaph got to do with the names as Kinzo was said to be not fond of Maria.
Personally I can't blame her, Honor is in it, Life is in it, Love is in it, Wealth,Land.Victory ain't in there, but funnily Victory is the term Rosa used when she said Eva has to come out and tell she found the gold.
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Old 2013-04-02, 15:31   Link #32071
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So here's a question that came up in a recent discussion: What does Yasu think of Ange? Is she resentful of her being the effective "cause" of Battler's departure? Was she mad at her over spurning Maria, or did she even specifically know? Just how much thought did she tend to pay Ange at any given point in time?

We know Ange apparently doesn't appear in any of her stories, and that she wasn't there; whether this was predicted or not I don't know, but the facts match the stories at least. She is mentioned, but it's rare, and the few times she does come up it's often in the context of tasteless and unflattering jokes about her illness. Just as often, Yasu-as-author seems to forget Ange even exists (such as Jessica's comment on all the cousins being together when Ange isn't there, no mention of Ange in the seating order discussion, etc.).

Meta-Beatrice seems to hate Meta-Ange quite a bit in Banquet and Alliance. It's hard to say, of course, how much of this is Yasu-as-author not liking Ange-the-child and how much of it is adult Ange being kind of a bitch and Beatrice being aware that she's an interloper that Bern has sent in to stir things up.

We do know what Ange thinks of Beatrice, and it's not flattering; on the other hand, it's also based on 12 years of suffering that didn't exist at the time the stories were written. There doesn't seem to be any reason to think six-year-old Ange had any animosity in particular toward Yasu, or even really had interacted with her that much.

It's clear Yasu was aware of Ange, but did she dislike her? Did she care? Did she know Maria was planning to initiate Ange into their secret club, or was that something Maria was going to do of her own initiative until Ange upset her (it was, after all, sort of Maria's club anyway)? Considering the somewhat important relationship that's supposedly established between Battler, Beatrice, and Ange, it seems like knowing what "Beatrice" thought of Ange is meaningfully important... but it comes up so very infrequently that it's hard to get a solid read on what that might be.
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Old 2013-04-02, 16:54   Link #32072
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As I mentioned in that discussion, if not for 'Ange', Rudolf wouldn't of remarried so soon and Battler wouldn't of forgotten about Yasu for six years, effectively making her at fault for the 'thousand years of suffering' that made her into a witch. The catalyst for Battler's sin.

If Yasu was bitter enough about it, she could blame Ange for everything that happened on 1986.

As I've said before, Ange did it.
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Old 2013-04-02, 17:47   Link #32073
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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
I find it better that the 3 oldest Cousins refer to their standings and rank in the family.

Jessica is Wealth.
George is Farmer.
Battler sounds exactly how an English would pronounce Bettler a german word for the poor.

That's a play on the social pyramid and their rank as Jessica>George>Battler.
Besides, one could argue that Battler has among the lowest of standing in the family seeing he was born by someone not even wed into the Ushiromiya and is a result of I think it's called Adultery in english.
Well, that's something only Rudolf should know as it's assumed he's the son of Asumu... and anyway later on Kyrie also married Rudolf.

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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
I'm interest if Kinzo gave them those name seeing as he is the one who originally named Rosa's Daughter, she said she had changed it to Maria on her own defying Kinzo who was furious over it.
It's why Rosa once harbored the thought the Epitaph got to do with the names as Kinzo was said to be not fond of Maria.
Personally I can't blame her, Honor is in it, Life is in it, Love is in it, Wealth,Land.Victory ain't in there, but funnily Victory is the term Rosa used when she said Eva has to come out and tell she found the gold.
... I'm not sure I'm following you...

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
So here's a question that came up in a recent discussion: What does Yasu think of Ange? Is she resentful of her being the effective "cause" of Battler's departure? Was she mad at her over spurning Maria, or did she even specifically know? Just how much thought did she tend to pay Ange at any given point in time?
I don't think in the beginning Yasu was against Ange, it would have more sense if she were against Rudolf for cheating with Kyrie.
If Asumu hadn't died Ange's situation would have been sort of similar to Yasu as she would be the daughter of a lover and rejected by Asumu.

However it's likely that later on she grew bitter toward Ange as well. If she hadn't been conceived Battler wouldn't have discovered Rudolf was cheating on Asumu and he likely would have waited an acceptable time before marrying Kyrie (so that mother and son could be back together) so Battler wouldn't have had reasons to leave.

Ange also made fun of magic and Maria we know how personally Yasu takes this sort of things. Plus Ange was allowed to meet Battler. In Ep 8 Ange seems to see Beato as a rival but I wonder if it could be Yasu saw Ange as a rival as well.
Ange might have even said she would 'marry her big brother' or something like that.

Ange was also cut out of marriage sorcierer... so i think all in all the fact she's not present in the first 2 stories to the point the cousins said something along the line of the cousins being finally all back together when actually Ange is missing simply represent Yasu's wish to deny Ange.

As it seems she bribed the adults it can also be she was the one who demanded for Ange to be left back home. Ange was a kid who, when nervous, would easily get stomachaches. She could easily be fooled into believing her stomachache was actually something more and, in being left home, she would be denied access to Beato's golden land.

There's also to say Beato was again Ange joining in their club... though I can't say if it was due to her being Ange or due to the fact Ange wouldn't be as easily fooled as Maria into that whole 'I'm a witch' and could tattle her out (like she did with Sakutarou, asking Kyrie if he really talked and, once she was told it was a trick, she called Maria on what she viewed as a lie... what if Yasu had gone and told her 'I'm Beatrice possessing Shannon's body and she had told Kyrie and Kyrie had told her Shannon was joking, shared this with Natsuhi and Rosa causing both to get angry?')

So I think in the end, when Yasu was planning to kill everyone she probably was angry with Ange as well. However it was likely the result of a situation, not something that was always there.

Interesting enough Ep 8 sees Ange and Beato fighting with the parallelism on how Beato was killing Ange slowly without even touching her, by closing her somewhere and denying her food which is in a way how Ange's life was. She was closed in the world out of the golden land and she was denied love, which is the 'food' children need the most and that slowly caused her to take a suicidal attitude.

It's also interesting the contrast between Ange and Beato. Ange wants to face the truth and although she searches for a truth of her own liking at least she's searching for it and doing it in a very straightforward manner. Beato hides the truth she knows in illusions and rarely searches for the truth or, if she does, she uses a pretty roudabout way (oh, Battler, I'd like to know if you'll remember your promise but I'll ask you if you does in such a way you'll never realize what I'm asking...).

In the end though they both were going through a way that would have carried them to self destruction.
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Old 2013-04-02, 18:02   Link #32074
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As I mentioned in that discussion, if not for 'Ange', Rudolf wouldn't of remarried so soon and Battler wouldn't of forgotten about Yasu for six years, effectively making her at fault for the 'thousand years of suffering' that made her into a witch. The catalyst for Battler's sin.

If Yasu was bitter enough about it, she could blame Ange for everything that happened on 1986.
I would go with this thought as well. But on the other hand we also have to consider what we are told in universe about Ange's relationship to Rokkenjima.
Apparently she didn't visit every year for the conference and I think we can assume that Kyrie's and Rudolph's visits to the island were also fewer than those of let's say Eva. Out of the 5 family conferences Ange was alive she would have maybe consciously taken part in 2 or 3 of them and was to be introduced to the Marriage Sorciere only lately.

Also considering that Okinawa seemed to be the first visit to the world beyond the Izu islands for Yasu, she probably didn't have a clear picture of "how the world works". Being pretty much a game piece all her life herself (that of Kinzo, Genji or even the lower servants) she probably does not see the greater implications of her actions.

EDIT: In a way you could almost see Yasu's actions as pushing her suffering on Ange.
If she actually started believing that they would all meet again in the Golden Land, or at least saw some sweet release for all people involved when the end came, she would leave out Ange exactly for that reason.
But then again there is evidence that Yasu didn't plan to actually murder people until shit started hitting the fan and either somebody else or her Beatrice persona ran wild.
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Old 2013-04-02, 19:14   Link #32075
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Could Ange's lack of presence in the fragments be due to Beatrice hastily "writing her out" at the last minute, in order to make her forgeries match the actual events as closely as possible?

Or, alternately, considering she was planning on killing her entire family, she may have tried to think of Ange as little as possible, to shut her nagging conscience up.
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Old 2013-04-02, 20:01   Link #32076
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Could Ange's lack of presence in the fragments be due to Beatrice hastily "writing her out" at the last minute, in order to make her forgeries match the actual events as closely as possible?
It's possible but difficult unless Ange had a really, really small part.

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Or, alternately, considering she was planning on killing her entire family, she may have tried to think of Ange as little as possible, to shut her nagging conscience up.
Considering she had no problems to kill Maria that was only 2 years older than Ange I don't think coscience was the problem here...
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Old 2013-04-02, 22:09   Link #32077
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Could Ange's lack of presence in the fragments be due to Beatrice hastily "writing her out" at the last minute, in order to make her forgeries match the actual events as closely as possible?
It's so unlikely as to be statistically impossible. Unless Ange has an effectively meaningless part, taking her out would've impacted the story significantly, and even if that wasn't the case, there's no talk in 1998 about hastened scribbles, erasings, or signs of editing to the manuscript, meaning Yasu would've had to get new sheets of paper and re-pen the entire story all over again.

Of course, there's indication that Ange's absence was known ahead of time by the other adults; Yasu probably had that tidbit of information when she wrote before the incident.
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Old 2013-04-02, 22:15   Link #32078
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It's possible but difficult unless Ange had a really, really small part.
Toddlers generally do, unless it's "Full House" or something.



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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Considering she had no problems to kill Maria that was only 2 years older than Ange I don't think coscience was the problem here...
Thing is, Maria's in the catbox, so by Yasu's reasoning, she gets to play witch games with Beatrice in the Golden Land forever (at least, she goes to great lengths to convince herself of that). Ange has to live in plain old boring reality, with her entire support network stripped from her. Crazy people don't think like normal people, and the notion that her game has consequences outside the island might trigger Yasu's conscience in ways that the activities on the island might not. The bank letters, if they aren't simply payment for services rendered, seem to hint at some sort of remorse in this respect.
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Old 2013-04-02, 22:22   Link #32079
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It's so unlikely as to be statistically impossible. Unless Ange has an effectively meaningless part, taking her out would've impacted the story significantly, and even if that wasn't the case, there's no talk in 1998 about hastened scribbles, erasings, or signs of editing to the manuscript, meaning Yasu would've had to get new sheets of paper and re-pen the entire story all over again.
I can her re-penning quite a bit to make it match the "real" events. It's the effective equivalent of her last will and testament, after all. As far as signs of editing, none of the 1998 chapters go into it one way or the other. If she did it by re-writing whole pages, there would be little or no sign of tampering.
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Old 2013-04-03, 01:15   Link #32080
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I can her re-penning quite a bit to make it match the "real" events. It's the effective equivalent of her last will and testament, after all. As far as signs of editing, none of the 1998 chapters go into it one way or the other. If she did it by re-writing whole pages, there would be little or no sign of tampering.
I'm just saying that since there's already evidence to suggest that Ange's absence was well-known before the conference AND Yasu clearly wrote the messages before the event.

Of course, it's also heavily suggested that Yasu didn't kill anyone so like whatever.
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