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Old 2013-03-26, 14:50   Link #5581
RedShocktrooper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomexe View Post
I wonder though if there is Sensha-do in the USA though? Or if its disdained in this world as much as soccer is IRL! Just because Shermans are common, that does not mean that Americans are driving them.
My thoughts are that American Tankery is an adapted version, and that like any proper school sport, it's ultimately funded by the government proper on a school level. However, the United States has a lot more leeway with what's legal, making it more of a sport than anything else. Also, it would be divided into leagues like Baseball has a Little and Big League for schools, then the Minor and Major league. I imagine in the US it would also have a local offbranch similar to the various levels of NASCAR.

Yes, this means American Tankery probably has the tanks as rolling advertisements. Camo is... notably absent. Making it impossible for tankery to become a fight.
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Old 2013-03-26, 14:51   Link #5582
Julio C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
But I have a feeling that Erika never respected Miho in the first place, before the latter strayed away.

- Tak
She saw her as a weak and naive person. She was really eager to take her place as vice commander which she eventually did, and she showed that during her first appearance in the show by her expression.
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Old 2013-03-26, 14:52   Link #5583
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
One example is the final duel. Maho went on the offence and chased Miho all over the place. But why? She could have just parked her tank against a wall (defending the vulnerable back) and force Miho to come to her instead. Miho was in a hurry to finish it quick, while by all logic Maho benefits on delaying until reinforcements arrive.

Had Maho even once played defence, Miho would have lost.

But as I say, Maho was not allowed to be defensive. She NEEDS to charge forward. And thus, she lost.
That's actually the wrong way to look at the situation. There was no certainty that reinforcements would have come in (frankly, Erika's reckless way of climbing over Leopon was something that was completely unexpected), so we had a one-on-one duel either way. More importantly, the side armor of the Tiger is the same as the rear, so parking the tank against a wall meant leaving the equally vulnerable side armor open to attack. With the Pz IV's mobility being far above the Tiger, not being able to pivot would have meant near certain death. Maho did the right thing by going on the offensive to prevent Miho from using mobility to its full potential, and to make sure that the Tiger was ready to move to defend its side and rear.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
And if I looked at that particular scene... the Ms fired upon each other point-blank.

How is it that a IV survived a 88mm and the Tiger did not survive a 75mm is beyond me

I love plot armor.

- Tak
The Pz IV was hit in the corner of the upper front hull, while the Tiger was shot right into the engine, where an explosion could have easily happened if the shells were actual weapons. Former is just a simple hit, while latter is an indisputably killing blow.
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Old 2013-03-26, 14:52   Link #5584
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
And if I looked at that particular scene... the Ms fired upon each other point-blank.

How is it that a IV survived a 88mm and the Tiger did not survive a 75mm is beyond me

I love plot armor.

- Tak
Actually you saw why. Maho's turret over-rotated and as such only hit the left side of the type IV. They even showed you where it hit.
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Old 2013-03-26, 14:52   Link #5585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
And if I looked at that particular scene... the Ms fired upon each other point-blank.

How is it that a IV survived a 88mm and the Tiger did not survive a 75mm is beyond me

I love plot armor.

- Tak
From the looks of it, the Tiger's shot was off a little to the right and only smashed the upper right corner of the turret while the Panzer IV's was a direct hit to the Tiger's rear.
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Old 2013-03-26, 14:53   Link #5586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
And if I looked at that particular scene... the Ms fired upon each other point-blank.

How is it that a IV survived a 88mm and the Tiger did not survive a 75mm is beyond me

I love plot armor.

- Tak
That one is easy. Look where the 88mm hit verse were the 75mm hit. The 88 hit was definately non-vital (corner armor shredded over Mako's head along with the tools and part of the skirt), while the 75 was right in the engine compartment. The skid also palced the guns together, with the momemtum pushing the 88 off target by less than a meter.
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Old 2013-03-26, 14:56   Link #5587
Tak
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You have no idea how much I love the attention ya all are giving me

That being said... this comes down to 1 simple fact: Maho missed... an amazing feat in itself, I tell ya.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julio C View Post
She saw her as a weak and naive person. She was really eager to take her place as vice commander which she eventually did, and she showed that during her first appearance in the show by her expression.
Right, but based on what, exactly. Again, my original point was, Erika probably did not like Miho from the get-go, before she lost that important match against Pravda. Otherwise, if other materials serve as an indication, Miho was quite the capable Senshado participant.

And this is where it gets interesting. Erika was certainly willing to take the bullet for Maho. Of course this is all part of teamwork, but it has the same mentality as Miho when she risked her life to help a fellow teammate. After the match, I am pretty sure Erika will not be blaming Maho, but herself since she probably see her captain as the essence of perfection. Ah, jealousy.

- Tak
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Old 2013-03-26, 14:59   Link #5588
Endless Knackwurst
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Nonetheless, I really don't know what saved the Pz IV from a direct 88mm hit. Its interesting also that Miho mentioned about her trick failed on the Churchill. I think she forgot she now has a bigger gun compared to what she used to have.
RNG.

I watched again just to see how close the shots went.

The Tiger's first shot was when the PzIV backed into them; the 88's muzzle is somewhere past the IV's front left, and the muzzle blast blows off the front-left Schurtzen. The second shot at the PzIV's right side digs into the ground next to the tank, but still blows off the rear-right Schurtzen and much of the stuff on the right side of the tank (I'm weirdly-entranced by the shovel that goes trailing off into the distance). The third and fourth shots actually hit the Schurtzen around the right side of the turret (the shrapnel from this could have easily removed the top half of Miho along with it), but again, the tank itself isn't hit.

I'm not sure how much of the damage that they show on the PzIV after the kill shot on the Tiger is attributable to the Tiger's final shot versus the first shot that removed the skirts.

Anyway, on the meta-level:

I really, really enjoyed this series. When I had my anime resurgence a few years ago after a long period of not really paying any attention to it, I tried to avoid overly moe/fanservicey stuff. That plan crumbled a bit since there was so much of that around, but I was still mostly avoiding overexposure to that... I ended up watching this because the premise seemed so weirdly out there that it merited a peek.

And it worked. I think I'm particularly pleased that fanservice was essentially avoided (the OVAs don't count). There have been plenty of series that throw anime girls into weird situations and then add extra fanservice for its own sake, and I'm glad that in this case it was avoided. In exchange they made the most of their available airtime and did a great job of show, don't tell, with the real plot and characterizations.
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Old 2013-03-26, 15:02   Link #5589
Ithekro
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An interesting note: Miho hit Maho's Tiger three times. Once on the side corner but it didn't do much. Then again in the same corner from the front on the approach, and then finally the rear.

Maho near-missed Miho at least three times before the final shot, stripping off parts in all cases. The most damage done was actually by Mako's drifting.
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Old 2013-03-26, 15:05   Link #5590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
You have no idea how much I love the attention ya all are giving me

That being said... this comes down to 1 simple fact: Maho missed... an amazing feat in itself, I tell ya.



Right, but based on what, exactly. Again, my original point was, Erika probably did not like Miho from the get-go, before she lost that important match against Pravda. Otherwise, if other materials serve as an indication, Miho was quite the capable Senshado participant.

And this is where it gets interesting. Erika was certainly willing to take the bullet for Maho. Of course this is all part of teamwork, but it has the same mentality as Miho when she risked her life to help a fellow teammate. After the match, I am pretty sure Erika will not be blaming Maho, but herself since she probably see her captain as the essence of perfection. Ah, jealousy.

- Tak
Maho either missed or Miho dodge a direct hit.

I wonder how Erika would have been towards Miho is she was the one that got saved in that river.
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Old 2013-03-26, 15:15   Link #5591
tomexe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Half way throughout Episode 12, I was hoping the Tiger P would take out Erika's KT in the process. Alas, that was not to be so. Someone had to get her off her high-horse, but it never happened.

Though to her credit, she was quite the selfless lass when it concerned Maho. Something else might be happening between the two...

Nonetheless, I really don't know what saved the Pz IV from a direct 88mm hit. Its interesting also that Miho mentioned about her trick failed on the Churchill. I think she forgot she now has a bigger gun compared to what she used to have.

- Tak
What saved the PzKpfw? Time. Shell impacts are recorded by computer. Hana hit first, perhaps by milliseconds. Apparently the rules do not allow for "no winner" and what would be a mutual kill IRL becomes a "win" for whoever hits first.

Also against Darjeelings Churchill, Anglerfish was victim of the "Random Number Generator". The Grn 39HL HEAT round for the "Stump" short 75mm gun was, in its most advanced form (1943), good for 100mm of penetration according to surviving manuals.
The Mk VI Churchill had 4 inches of armor on the hull and turret front. Thats 101.4 mm in metric. Or a mere 1.4mm more than the rated penetration for the HEAT round.
That close to the border line the "V50" rule applies. Roughly 50 percent of the time when there is that little difference, the round will still penetrate, becoming less likely as the angle of impact either vertically or horizontally increases. Clearly though the Anglerfish hit the Churchill's turret face at almost perfect right angle. So they lost because the scoring computer made a dice roll- and because for safety sake spall damage is not counted.

Last edited by tomexe; 2013-03-26 at 15:17. Reason: Details
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Old 2013-03-26, 15:21   Link #5592
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by tomexe View Post
Also against Darjeelings Churchill, Anglerfish was victim of the "Random Number Generator". The Grn 39HL HEAT round for the "Stump" short 75mm gun was, in its most advanced form (1943), good for 100mm of penetration according to surviving manuals.
The Mk VI Churchill had 4 inches of armor on the hull and turret front. Thats 101.4 mm in metric. Or a mere 1.4mm more than the rated penetration for the HEAT round.
That close to the border line the "V50" rule applies. Roughly 50 percent of the time when there is that little difference, the round will still penetrate, becoming less likely as the angle of impact either vertically or horizontally increases. Clearly though the Anglerfish hit the Churchill's turret face at almost perfect right angle. So they lost because the scoring computer made a dice roll- and because for safety sake spall damage is not counted.
I don't think HEAT rounds are used for Sensha-do, but that's just my thought.
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Old 2013-03-26, 15:35   Link #5593
tomexe
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I don't think HEAT rounds are used for Sensha-do, but that's just my thought.
They are not.
All the rounds are TP- target practice. Their weights and powder charges are adjusted to give ballistics that approximate the original live rounds and allow the gunsights to work properly. The smoke is from a small black powder charge in the base.

But the rounds carry a microchip and RF transmitter that allows them to be SCORED as a penetrating round.

If there is a surprise is that they are apparently allowed to load REAL HE rounds- though again I suppose "common shell"- ie black powder filled instead of a real High Explosive like TNT or Amitol, could be produce the same visual effect and be less dangerous to buttoned up tanks and still scored by the computer as HE...
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Old 2013-03-26, 15:38   Link #5594
Endless Knackwurst
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Funny thing is, even if this character gets a name, we'd probably still refer to her as JagdPanther-chan.

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Old 2013-03-26, 16:08   Link #5595
Dop
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Wow! Well they say everything good comes to he who waits, and that was certainly well worth waiting for. Best season finale or what?

I was absolutely on the edge of my seat during the final battle.

All in all this series vastly exceeded my original expectations and delivered something wonderful, I think. and while I'll be amazed if there isn't a second series, I kind of wonder how they can possibly top this.
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Old 2013-03-26, 16:08   Link #5596
Tak
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Originally Posted by Julio C View Post
I wonder how Erika would have been towards Miho is she was the one that got saved in that river.
And if it was Maho falling into the river, I am willing to bet both Erika & Miho would be competing for being the first to jump into the river

Erika saw that act by Miho as more of an excuse to hate her, and more of an excuse for her to take Miho's spot, because I am willing to bet ya, she is in love with Maho.

Here is another interesting point, remember the Hertzer giving out after completing its troll on the Maus? The Panzer IV was more than totaled after Mako drifted it in a manner that would have caused an internal engine combustion. By the time Miho fired her shot, her Pz IV was more than totaled. You would have thought that was enough damage for a flag to pop out.

- Tak
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Old 2013-03-26, 16:15   Link #5597
Endless Soul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst View Post
Funny thing is, even if this character gets a name, we'd probably still refer to her as JagdPanther-chan.

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She's currently my favorite among the Black Forest group. Look at her, rolling happily along atop her trusty Jagdpanther, wind in her hair, happy and content, and all is right with the world. Then how upset she got when someone dared to hurt her beloved tank destroyer.

Of course, I could be partial to her because of my own very fun experiences with the Jagdpanther in WoT.

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Old 2013-03-26, 16:17   Link #5598
Endless Knackwurst
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We've had the Pz38t, Type 89, some of the T-34s, the JagdPanther twice, and now the PzIV considered still operable despite blowing a track. I don't think that would have done in the engine, but it probably should have sheared off the left track too.
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Old 2013-03-26, 16:18   Link #5599
Tak
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Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst View Post
We've had the Pz38t, Type 89, some of the T-34s, the JagdPanther twice, and now the PzIV considered still operable despite blowing a track.
Yes, but none of those tanks were pushing it at the limit Mako was pushing hers. The way Mako drove hers at the end of 12? The engine would have given out.

- Tak
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Old 2013-03-26, 16:20   Link #5600
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Deep down it's clear Maho wanted Miho to win. Naturally of course she couldn't throw the fight or make it easy for her, but this is the outcome Maho wanted and that little smile of pride she shows confirms it.
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