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Old 2013-03-26, 20:21   Link #2781
Keroko
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The whole past thing has been important for Einhart since her introducting. It's a core part of her character. It never lost importance.

And do tell me how Rio's role can be applied to "any" character. You seem to love throwing these general statements around, but I've rarely see you define them.
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Old 2013-03-26, 20:30   Link #2782
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Yes, important to Einhart, who hasn’t been important to the rest of the stuff that is going on and this stuff wasn’t important to her past until the latest chapters. Again because of a reduce role.

What I mean is that when look from the outside none of this characters, and I mean none, are important or essential to the overall action going on. That is why I say their reduce roles allows us to freely take them in and out without affecting to much the rest.
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Old 2013-03-26, 20:39   Link #2783
Keroko
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Einhart. Reduced role.

.... Are we even reading the same manga here? What the hell are you even talking about when you say "reduced role?"
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Old 2013-03-26, 20:42   Link #2784
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Because how was she of any importance while all the others had their fights and past told to us?
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Old 2013-03-26, 20:44   Link #2785
Rising Dragon
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You don't bloody understand the concept of a supporting cast, do you?
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Old 2013-03-26, 20:47   Link #2786
Keroko
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Because how was she of any importance while all the others had their fights and past told to us?
Could you reword this? Because I have no idea what you mean.
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Old 2013-03-26, 20:49   Link #2787
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I think he means because they were showing off other characters and their introspective moments during such (like Miura's), he believes Einhart's role was reduced.
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Old 2013-03-26, 20:52   Link #2788
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Because it was. At a point we lost track of Vivio and then of Einhart. Their stories and past didn’t matter because we were busy searching the rest. Some of them that start the series with us and the others that were add later on. So when we were busy with that the “main characters” were reduce to almost have no impact in such moments.
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Old 2013-03-26, 20:53   Link #2789
Keroko
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Ah. Well, you're wrong. Just because we learned more about a character who isn't Einhart doesn't mean Einhart's centrality in the plot is changed.
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Old 2013-03-26, 20:54   Link #2790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Ah. Well, you're wrong. Just because we learned more about a character who isn't Einhart doesn't mean Einhart's centrality in the plot is changed.
Isn't that called...

Fleshing out your cast?
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Old 2013-03-26, 20:56   Link #2791
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On this case it does because the “story” focus everything on the new characters. Almost to the point where the others don’t even show up so we change the focus to something else and then we get back like nothing happen.
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Old 2013-03-26, 20:57   Link #2792
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On this case it does because the “story” focus everything on the new characters. Almost to the point where the others don’t even show up so we change the focus to something else and then we get back like nothing happen.
you...

Don't watch many movies, anime, read much manga or books, do you, Sansker?
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Old 2013-03-26, 20:59   Link #2793
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On this case it does because the “story” focus everything on the new characters. Almost to the point where the others don’t even show up so we change the focus to something else and then we get back like nothing happen.
.... Yup, we definitely must be reading different mangas. Because I am not seeing what you are claiming here at all.

Unless by "others" you mean Nanoha and Fate, and not Vivio & co, who have so far barely left a chapter without their appearance.
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Old 2013-03-26, 21:04   Link #2794
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I mean significant appearance not just say “hi” in one panel or look shook in another one and is done with that. Besides that isn’t the point. The point being how we shift focus we can’t really talk of a consistency story with any elements because all elements are close in their own little universe.
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Old 2013-03-26, 21:13   Link #2795
Keroko
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Dwah? I'm sorry, but the latest raws are all about everyone coming together.

Seriously, what the hell are you reading? We can't be reading the same manga here!
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Old 2013-03-26, 21:16   Link #2796
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Not the raw, I can’t read Japanese.

This isn’t everyone coming together this is when we finally start to kind of have a point. And I say start because I still don’t see it. For once a fight is over and it actually carries over something that won’t just be forget and deal with fast. That is the difference. But at no point this moment was help or any way riches because of all the fights that happen before. It was just a chain of events play in a sequence. And I should not feel it that way if this is a story.
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Old 2013-03-26, 21:19   Link #2797
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It was just a chain of events play in a sequence
You REALLY don't watch many movies/anime, or read many books, do you?
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Old 2013-03-26, 22:17   Link #2798
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Uhh. Yeah. I'm not too big on ViVid myself, but seriously, Sansker.

'A chain of events playing in sequence' is a story by any other name. The main variables as far as structure are 'what kind of sequence' (chronology), 'how are the events presented' (style) 'who gets the spotlight for these next ten seconds?' (focus).

If you think of Vivid as one long series of events making up a story, each chapter probably translates to a pretty short amount of screen-time. Not seeing a character for 'a while' (the total length of which you have yet to specify, I believe) isn't good evidence to say that they've been sidelined.

And from what I read you also don't seem to have the foggiest what a 'scene' is supposed to be. Not everyone can be in a certain scene at a time, and especially not with a cast as large as ViVid's. With the number of pages the manga-ka has to put content in, they'd need text as verbose as Death Note's for us to get anything more than 'hi-bye' out of any one character if everyone were to appear in a scene.

Scenes are limited in their 'active cast' or 'present cast' by definition precisely because there are other storytelling aspects the author needs to concentrate on, such as fleshing out characters and actually getting on with the plot! Both are important, even where supporting characters are concerned. It would be pretty boring if only the main character ever got development and everyone else was cardboard-cutout fetish material, wouldn't it? And making the main character the only source of plot development would make them a walking armory of plot devices. Pretty lame choices either way.

Oh yeah, and did I mention that you need to make your stand clearer? That means actually looking through an online dictionary to find the exact words you want to use to make your point, and not settling for approximations that make a Triple Masters in Irony, Linguistics and Guesswork required reading to understand your comments.

All I actually understood from your most recent posts was 'I didn't read the raws, but never mind that someone else has, from what I read so far the story sucks for reasons I can't explain in comprehensible English', and unless there's some mitigating factor in your argument that I missed somewhere, I think the only reply I can really give you is "for the first time in your life, bro, go read a book!"
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Old 2013-03-26, 22:30   Link #2799
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I do try to make myself clear. But this discussion is something that we already have in the past about ViVid and my personal disagreements with it.

You completely miss the point. Is not that the scenes are play in a sequence is that they are random things play in a sequence. When you have a collage of things that barely show some theme going and still playing one after the other you need something to connect them. Usually that is the story. But in ViVid the story is so shallow that I just feel they put this chapter, after this chapter, after this one with barely a narrative flow between them. Not because there isn’t one, since the tournament must move on, but because one event doesn’t seem to affect the others.

Also, I know what a scene is. ViVid likes to put lots of characters in the same place, at the same time, so when most of them serve no purpose to that scene: why are they even there then? The lack of focus not just on character but on who’s story this is or where is going hurts the manga and makes it boring.
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Old 2013-03-26, 23:00   Link #2800
XenahortCharybdis
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I do try to make myself clear. But this discussion is something that we already have in the past about ViVid and my personal disagreements with it.
Hey, you can do it when you try, I see. Alright. I rescind my comments about your ability to put yourself across.

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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
You completely miss the point. Is not that the scenes are play in a sequence is that they are random things play in a sequence. When you have a collage of things that barely show some theme going and still playing one after the other you need something to connect them. Usually that is the story. But in ViVid the story is so shallow that I just feel they put this chapter, after this chapter, after this one with barely a narrative flow between them. Not because there isn’t one, since the tournament must move on, but because one event doesn’t seem to affect the others.
What did you expect from ViVid, really - did you expect to read the Wheel of Time for Moeblobs?

And if you're complaining that the tournament felt disjointed, that's because it's done match by match. The scene, setting and circumstances for each one can be vastly different due to the setup of the competition itself. Actually, tournaments of this sort are designed to prevent events from one match from affecting others in the first place, so the point is a little moot.

However, if you're complaining that the tournament felt rushed and didn't contribute to ViVid's plot I can only say that I'm glad it was rushed away precisely because it didn't contribute much to anything at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Also, I know what a scene is. ViVid likes to put lots of characters in the same place, at the same time, so when most of them serve no purpose to that scene: why are they even there then? The lack of focus not just on character but on who’s story this is or where is going hurts the manga and makes it boring.
Well you gotta understand that manga is an amalgamation of a visual and textual medium. In a text-based medium you can just have a one liner saying who's here, and then forget about them for the rest of the chapter. For a visual medium you can't really do that, so once in a while people do need to be reminded that somewhere else, someone else is also on the scene.

But that's not your main point, is it? Your main point is that ViVid isn't clear on the focus of its story. Well it is quite clear, on paper at least, that this seems to be about the past of Ancient Belka, as shown through the eyes of -conveniently!- cute little and not so little girls.

I agree though, that the execution has muddled things a great deal so far. The live-action game of Marvel Vs Capcom wasn't the most brilliant idea for character introductions.
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