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Old 2013-03-27, 09:27   Link #21
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by milan kyuubi View Post
So now both Shimura and Sarutobis were a major clan. Which is laughable since Shimura's weren't even mentioned in first part. Btv what happened to that clan that only Danzou remained. Probably the same thing as with the Senjus. And Hiriuzen, Asume and Konohamaru were the only Sarutobis in first part. I guess all this members of Sarutobis clan we are seeing now fighting Juubi were hiding in first part.
i dont see a problem with this. there have always been a ton of anbu members we were never introduced to. there can be plenty of sarutobis and shimuras around there and in chuunin and genin ranks. keep in mind that most ninja aren't notable. we were only shown hiruzen, asuma, konohamaru and danzo because they were/are powerful and story-relevant characters. it would be boring to go through a list of introductions about ninja who dont matter to the plot and cant do anything aside from basic ninja techs

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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
No matter how you look at it, Tobirama has been a huge part of the problem so far in this flashback and it's Hashirama telling the story lol.
not really. he's a racist, but that's it. humanitarians have worked with racists plenty of times in real world history to make things better or at least hopefully make things better. madara is pretty weak minded. i'm surprised how easily he supposedly turned
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Old 2013-03-27, 09:31   Link #22
ChronoReverse
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Did I say he was _the_ reason? I'm just saying that that he's been a large part even if it's unintentionally a trigger (like killing Izuna)

As for Madara being weak-minded, that was already a given. It was expected that he couldn't have had too great a reason to go nuts.

To be fair, he was already mistrustful before this. It was a lifetime of fighting and hating after all.
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Old 2013-03-27, 10:14   Link #23
Masuzu
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I laughed a bit inside when Madara said that Tobirama would be the second Hokage and that it would somehow lead to the Uchiha getting wiped out.

Now you're just being paranoid.
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Old 2013-03-27, 10:43   Link #24
Lunarskylar
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considering that kishi is trying to get across the point that the more an uchiha loses, the more his brain gets fucked up and his eyes grow in strength, I can understand Madara's logic (on teh basis that the sharingan comes with a legitimate mental disorder)

Lost his brother (and wasn't even strong enough to avenge him even with his new eyes)
Lost members of the clan from being too weak,
Lost the trust of the entire clan... for apparently wanting too much power
And finally when there's a glimmer of hope, loses that too, and realizes he has no one
Hashirama is idealistic, but ultimately he'll do what the majority wants for the sake of peace, and Madara would barely find redemption, let alone acceptance in that world
So Madara has literally no one right now, except for Hashirama who isn't that reliable except for idealistic and moral support. He needs Izuna
thenn factor in Uchihaphrenia and bingo, cookoo bananas

However, i honestly wonder if Madara even came up with the whole eye of the moon plan from now or not, becauseeeee now I'm almost positive that Madara didn't feign death and trick Hashirama, Hashirama probably spared him again.

And maybe even gave him some of his lifeforce (through some jutsu) to help him stay alive in exchange for never returning to hurt the village and try and live a new life elsewhere to be free and happy for once.

then rinnegan happens and madara gets a new idea
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Old 2013-03-27, 11:12   Link #25
james0246
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Originally Posted by Lunarskylar View Post
Hashirama is idealistic, but ultimately he'll do what the majority wants for the sake of peace, and Madara would barely find redemption, let alone acceptance in that world
Did Madara even try? Madara has never given an inch in his life. Even when defeated he still tried to force Hashirama to bend to his will (and it was only Hashirama's willingness to create peace through self-subjugation that allowed Madara to even consider a truce). Afterwards, he never actually attempted to fit in or work with the peace Hashirama was attempting to create. Seemingly, Madara's greatest problem was pride, which forced him to never even attempt for peace based on compromise or equality.

To use Naruto as a comparison: Naruto was shunned, hated, and mentally and spiritually abused for over a decade. His only support was from an overly idealistic leader that never really did anything for him (beyond giving him a basic level of protection and security) and could only cheer him on from the side-lines. Despite this, he still managed to find a way to work within the society that hated him, and through years of effort and hard work (and saving the village...twice ) he was able to sway the people's opinion.

True, Madara grew up in a time of war and lost his entire family during the years of conflict, but the basic ideal of peace leading to a better life is still found in both characters even if the level of tragedy is different. Madara's actions were simply those of a man who never even attempted to compromise on his own pride, rather he tried to force the world to bend to him, and when the world didn't bend he sought other avenues for subjugation.
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Old 2013-03-27, 11:46   Link #26
xellos2099
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In a way, Madara is not wrong either, after Tobirama become a hokage, he DID isolate the clan, and that eventually led to the rebellion one way or another.
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Old 2013-03-27, 11:54   Link #27
Hisoka??
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Madara was right in his interpretation of the sentiments of the villagers and the next hokage. Given that there is no good way for him to solve the foreseen doom of his clan from within the village, it just makes sense for him to try without.

What his clan faced was not just shunning, but hatred, racism and likely eventual genocide. Comparing it to what Naruto faced is just off. Remember that he first attempted to get his clan to withdraw but they didn't trust him. So it's not like he didn't try or compromise.
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Old 2013-03-27, 12:02   Link #28
james0246
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Originally Posted by xellos2099 View Post
In a way, Madara is not wrong either, after Tobirama become a hokage, he DID isolate the clan, and that eventually led to the rebellion one way or another.
It can, in turn, be said that Tobirama only did this because Madara went rogue. There is fault all around. No one person is to blame.

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Originally Posted by Hisoka?? View Post
Madara was right in his interpretation of the sentiments of the villagers and the next hokage.
So why didn't he even attempt to change this outlook? Nothing Madara did was in any way conductive to trying to compromise or create equality. (Nothing Tobirama did helped either.)
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Old 2013-03-27, 12:10   Link #29
ChronoReverse
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They're aren't pinning the blame on Tobirama, just pointing out that it's kinda funny how Madara turned out to be right (self-fulfilling prophecy?).
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Old 2013-03-27, 12:15   Link #30
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Hashirama and Madara can do manzai after all....
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Old 2013-03-27, 12:21   Link #31
lucasd
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Hashirama interpreted plaque as a cooperation of yin and yan,
while Madara as a conflict, hence different path - war and an opponent of "equal" strength.

Plus we know that plaque shows different info to different eyes...
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Old 2013-03-27, 12:22   Link #32
MysticNinjaJay
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I don't know what everyone is complaining about. The Senju and the Uchiha were mortal enemies. Madara has been taught since childhood that this clan is the enemy. He's seen all of his siblings die in war. He doesn't fully believe in the alliance even though he values the idea and Tobirama isn't making it a secret that he doesn't trust the Uchiha. Add to that the fact that Madara lost the support of the Uchiha clan. He's trying to protect them. He believes that Tobirama's distrust of the Uchiha will lead to their destruction when Hashirama can no longer keep him in check. His motivations for rebellion are not far fetched.

Keep in mind that Madara isn't to the point yet where he becomes the evil mastermind of the series. Right now he's at the point of rebellion against a power structure that he believes will lead to his clan's destruction. I think Kishimoto has done a decent job of showing what motivated Madara and has made it more interesting by making Madara and Hashirama friends in the beginning. I don't think Tobirama is fully to blame for what is happening. He doesn't trust Madara and Madara doesn't trust him. It's a vicious cycle. Unfortunately ninja don't have the sense to talk things out so when one has a problem with another the conflict is more likely to end in bloodshed than diplomacy.

The only thing I didn't like about this chapter was Hashirama's willingness to kill himself just to appease Madara. That was ridiculous.
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Old 2013-03-27, 12:28   Link #33
Hisoka??
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
It can, in turn, be said that Tobirama only did this because Madara went rogue. There is fault all around. No one person is to blame.



So why didn't he even attempt to change this outlook? Nothing Madara did was in any way conductive to trying to compromise or create equality. (Nothing Tobirama did helped either.)
We don't know whether Madara did or did not do anything to compromise and we can only assume that up to that point, he had been a proper and good leader/ co-leader.

But he foresaw the inequality and probably saw no way around the doom he predicted. He did compromise by trying to pull his clan out, but his clan won't trust him (probably because they trusted the first more).

He wasn't even doing it for his pride, but for his clan. He wasn't even depicted to be unhappy about not being chosen as hokage.
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Old 2013-03-27, 12:40   Link #34
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Hisoka?? View Post
Madara was right in his interpretation of the sentiments of the villagers and the next hokage. Given that there is no good way for him to solve the foreseen doom of his clan from within the village, it just makes sense for him to try without.
right, but it doesn't make sense for him to be evil now. if he was leaving the village to find peace through an alternative path then fine, but kishi is conveying to us that his motives are ill-intended starting now which doesn't quite add up for me (aside from the uchiha brain damage curse of course)

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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
They're aren't pinning the blame on Tobirama, just pointing out that it's kinda funny how Madara turned out to be right (self-fulfilling prophecy?).
yea, i think at least part of what kishi is trying to convey here is that madara is living out a self-fulfilling prophesy here. if he stayed things could have possibly been different, but he's forcing his own paranoid suspicions to come true basically
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Old 2013-03-27, 13:30   Link #35
james0246
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Originally Posted by Hisoka?? View Post
We don't know whether Madara did or did not do anything to compromise and we can only assume that up to that point, he had been a proper and good leader/ co-leader.
Madara has never compromised on his clan or his pride. That is a key facet of his personality. To put into perspective, at some point during these early days Madara fought against Mu and Oonoki, attempting to force Iwa into submission to Konoha. He won this encounter and, more or less, told the nation that they must obey Konoha's orders. This is not the action of a character who wishes to seek equality or compromises. This was the action of a ruler and conqueror (something the Uchiha have been portrayed as before).

That being said, we do not need to see the itty bitty details to know what Madara (and others) are capable of or what they have already done. Madara is a character who demanded the death of his sworn rival rather than simply surrender (he even acknowledged that his death would mean nothing to a clan that had already forsaken him). He is a prideful character who refuses to compromise if he ever comes across as being the weaker of the compromise.

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Originally Posted by Hisoka?? View Post
But he foresaw the inequality and probably saw no way around the doom he predicted. He did compromise by trying to pull his clan out, but his clan won't trust him (probably because they trusted the first more).
Yes he saw potential inequality, but in reality his answer to solving that inequality was far worse (in every single respect) than simply striving to gain the trust of the village. Instead of simply sitting down and attempting to work through the issues facing the clan and the village, he instead sought dominance (admittedly, this is all to fuel the drama of the situation, so logic doesn't matter quite as much). (This is why I compared him to Naruto (and bluntly acknowledged their levels of tragedy, though trauma would have been a better word), who sought to change people's opinions rather than forcing them to do anything.)

Additionally, I do not understand why you think telling the Uchiha to leave Konoha is a compromise. I guess it is technically a compromise for the Uchiha Clan, but it's not really a compromise with Konoha...

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Originally Posted by Hisoka?? View Post
He wasn't even doing it for his pride, but for his clan. He wasn't even depicted to be unhappy about not being chosen as hokage.
Agree to disagree. I did not read the sequence of events, nor Madara's destruction of the symbolic leaf, as being indicators of a Madara simply looking out for his clan (a clan that had already begun deserting him before this alliance was even struck). I do believe that Madara was looking out for his clan, but I also believe that Madara did not think anyone but himself could look after his clan.

I should note, I do feel some sympathy for Madara (unlike Tobi, who I feel nothing by incredulity for). He is a product f his times who dreams of something better but through his own and others actions he can never actually achieve his dreams. There is something realistically tragic about Madara.

Last edited by james0246; 2013-03-27 at 13:58.
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Old 2013-03-27, 13:33   Link #36
Ero-Senn1n
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It was fun to read how "democracy" caused the whole problem

It says a lot about Madara's bad reputation that his own clan did choose Hashirama instead of him. Whenever we see Madara talking it's clear that he has some mental issues, the flashback made it so clear how much more reliable and kind person Hashirama was, and on top of that even stronger, so it's no wonder that in a democracy people chose him.

It seems that Madara had already his dream of Eternal Tsukiyomi at the time he left the village. He already told to Hashirama that the world they live in is just entertainment, that's very similar to what Tobito tells when killing people, since according to their dream when Eternal Tsukiyomi beings anything that happened before becomes meaningless, one could say it was just entertainment. Madara seems to have complete self confidence at the end of this chapter, so i guess he already worked out his plan of stealing Hashirama's cells, otherwise he shouldn't have such self confidence after being defeated by Hashirama multiple times.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2013-03-27 at 13:53.
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Old 2013-03-27, 14:06   Link #37
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I do believe that Madara was looking out for his clan, but I also believe that Madara did not think anyone but himself could look after his clan.
This is exactly what Edo Itachi was trying to convey to Naruto before running off to fight Kabuto...
just because you made a promise to someone or that someone entrusted the future to you, doesnt mean you have to do it alone or something like that...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
It was fun to read how "democracy" caused the whole problem

It says a lot about Madara's bad reputation that his own clan did choose Hashirama instead of him. Whenever we see Madara talking it's clear that he has some mental issues, the flashback made it so clear how much more reliable and kind person Hashirama was, and on top of that even stronger, so it's no wonder that in a democracy people chose him.

It seems that Madara had already his dream of Eternal Tsukiyomi at the time he left the village. He already told to Hashirama that the world they live in is just entertainment, that's very similar to what Tobito tells when killing people, since according to their dream when Eternal Tsukiyomi beings anything that happened before becomes meaningless, one could say it was just entertainment. Madara seems to have complete self confidence at the end of this chapter, so i guess he already worked out his plan of stealing Hashirama's cells, otherwise he shouldn't have such self confidence after being defeated by Hashirama multiple times.
lol. i wonder if he is under some EMS hypnosis...i mean yes it was all about the angst between the two clans but at some madara had to agree things were way out of hand and actually considered doing things differently...Izuna snapped him out it and they disappeared in a cloud of smoke...

for fun, i think the implant itself has much to do with madara being so ridiculous and as awful as this will sound, i feel sasuke implant will have something to do with why he returns to konoha (if he indeed does)
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Old 2013-03-27, 14:07   Link #38
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You can certainly relate Tobirama to Danzo. They both want what's best for the village and ironically they both had to besiege the Uchiha. There's no chance Tobirama didn't know that Madara was outside the window while he was talking to Hashirama. And obviously, Hashirama has to side with his Brother over Madara.

I think there's more to Madara turning evil than the small conversations and betrayals in this chapter. Compare Madara and Hashirama to Sasuke and Naruto. Sasuke was jealous of naruto at some points, and i think Madara was jealous that Hashirama was stronger than him, still had has family, was able to protect his family while Madara couldn't.

Also, now i think its Madara who killed the remainder of the Senju clan, and possibly the Shimura clan too.
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Old 2013-03-27, 14:35   Link #39
2Fast
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Funny detail on the 8th page. You can see a picture of Konoha with an airconditioning machine on the HQ building. I quess anything is possible in this manga.
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Old 2013-03-27, 15:07   Link #40
levyian
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Two opposing forces coming together, do you think it was at that time Madara figured out that by fusing Hashirama's cells with himself he can gain new strength?

Hashirama's point of this whole flashback is to clear up some things for Sasuke, like the fact that the village ended a long era of fighting between the two clans and stopped the bloodshed of children but I wonder what will Sasuke's take be on all this....
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