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Old 2013-03-27, 10:58   Link #2801
Sansker
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I know how visual media like this works. I might not read much manga but I do read comics and, knowing that there are differences between them, they are similar in nature. The problem is that ViVid’s cast is huge but serves little purpose to anything. They are introducing and introducing characters before starting to make anything with them so when they finally start we already have like 12 more waiting in the line, just staying there and doing nothing until the focus moves to them so they can have their small introduction and then go back in the shadows without having a real change on what the character serves in this story.

Is a thing about execution most of the time. You see the tournament not only feels disjointed but also pointless. If this was about the ancient Belka we already had that when Vivio and Einhart meet each other. So why wait for so long, introduce this many new people and only have one, or maybe two, of this new people important to that ancient Belka thing? The story introduces a conflict, didn’t bother to give it resolution before introducing a new one and now we have to deal with the first conflict, the ancient Belka thing, while the tournament hasn’t been deal with since the veterans are still part of it. My complain is: keep on to something.
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Old 2013-03-27, 11:05   Link #2802
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they are similar in nature. The problem is that ViVid’s cast is huge but serves little purpose to anything. They are introducing and introducing characters before starting to make anything with them so when they finally start we already have like 12 more waiting in the line, just staying there and doing nothing until the focus moves to them so they can have their small introduction and then go back in the shadows without having a real change on what the character serves in this story.
Sansker, look at your sig and your avatar. That series is way worse than Nanoha is.
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Old 2013-03-27, 12:07   Link #2803
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
I know how visual media like this works. I might not read much manga but I do read comics and, knowing that there are differences between them, they are similar in nature. The problem is that ViVidís cast is huge but serves little purpose to anything. They are introducing and introducing characters before starting to make anything with them so when they finally start we already have like 12 more waiting in the line, just staying there and doing nothing until the focus moves to them so they can have their small introduction and then go back in the shadows without having a real change on what the character serves in this story.

Is a thing about execution most of the time. You see the tournament not only feels disjointed but also pointless. If this was about the ancient Belka we already had that when Vivio and Einhart meet each other. So why wait for so long, introduce this many new people and only have one, or maybe two, of this new people important to that ancient Belka thing? The story introduces a conflict, didnít bother to give it resolution before introducing a new one and now we have to deal with the first conflict, the ancient Belka thing, while the tournament hasnít been deal with since the veterans are still part of it. My complain is: keep on to something.
If you really knew how visual media works, you'd know that introducing multiple conflicts and a large base-cast is nothing new. It's been done before many times. You don't need to resolve every conflict in order before starting the next, and so far they've done admirably well in introducing the new characters. Each one has had several moments to show their unique quirks and trades across the manga, starting as early as the pre-tournament training.
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Old 2013-03-27, 13:49   Link #2804
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Just because something else has problems doesn’t make the problems here vanish. Bleach is a different series with a different thread to talk about it.

The same goes by the ideas or large cast. Not new, yes, but in this case doesn’t work. What I mean by conflict is how they introduce ideas and then not do anything with them. The relationship between Klaus and Olive and how this one was a reflection of Einhart and Vivio was hinted and then forget to go training trip, tournament, add a new person there and now is brought back again even when we already have story serve before. Instead of offering some resolution or keep it as a theme we are just going with something else.

The introduction of the new characters, however, isn’t good at all. They just come in and keep coming. Like I say we end with 20 plus characters and we give them so little to each of them that most feel flat. Also because there is no story the characters just hang around doing nothing and their characterizations are really basic without any particular trade that make them interesting.
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Old 2013-03-27, 14:28   Link #2805
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Flat? Little? Again, we must have been reading different manga, because a lot of these characters have been introduced slowly over several chapters with plenty of diversity between eachother. And Klaus and Olivie's relationship is still an ongoing plot, as is Einhart and Vivio's.

So your complaints again ring hollow.
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Old 2013-03-27, 14:36   Link #2806
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But has not been a focus. Overall I think this is actually about how you and I perceive the story Keroko. Where you see something that is good, full with characters and dynamic I see something else. The characters have been introduced as a group and most of them just step in, say their names and hang around until they have their fight. I am not asking for 20+ poorly done characters, I will be fine with 5 focus people. So far this people really give too little for me to grab and, again, lack of story makes it even harder to know who I am suppose to care about.
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Old 2013-03-27, 14:37   Link #2807
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Sansker, if you can't figure out who to care about, then just pick a character and focus on them.

It helps.
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Old 2013-03-27, 15:36   Link #2808
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Well, I tell the same thing to the story. Because for some silly reason I thought this was Vivio’s story. And I can bring myself to care about anyone when they are all the same level of bland good girls as the rest. They do posses hints of clichť personalities but nothing really comes out of it and their interactions feel really odd. Worse the story itself shifts the tone of scenes constantly so I really don’t know where I am suppose to care or where I am suppose to laugh.
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Old 2013-03-27, 15:46   Link #2809
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Yeah, a lot of people thought the same of the first season being Nanoha's story, and that just wasn't the case. But as far as stories go, this one is far from complete, so Vivio may have a role to play--try not to condemn it too much before it plays out, and enough of the gibberish about it taking too long; your precious Bleach manga is just as big of an offender.
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Old 2013-03-27, 15:55   Link #2810
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Again, even if Bleach has flaws they don't just erase ViVid's flaws. I have my own take on Bleach but that is for its forum.

Like I say I am just simple lost here because the story doesn’t have any plot so far. All the elements are here to just be here and there is no purpose to many of them. Now that you mention the first season Nanoha had a role to play there from the start we didn’t have to wait until chapter 10 to learn how she fits in the story. Vivio has been dragging along this situations and her part was almost forgot since the first arc. We even get a new girl to fit the spot of being related to Einhart’s ancestor.
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Old 2013-03-27, 15:59   Link #2811
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But has not been a focus.
Define "focus."

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Overall I think this is actually about how you and I perceive the story Keroko. Where you see something that is good, full with characters and dynamic I see something else. The characters have been introduced as a group and most of them just step in, say their names and hang around until they have their fight. I am not asking for 20+ poorly done characters, I will be fine with 5 focus people. So far this people really give too little for me to grab and, again, lack of story makes it even harder to know who I am suppose to care about.
Except that's wrong. A minority of exceptions aside (barrier girl comes to mind, and to a lesser degree Shante) every character has been steadily introduced over several chapters before their fight began.

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Well, I tell the same thing to the story. Because for some silly reason I thought this was Vivio’s story.
Now that's a piece it critisism I agree with. Vivio seems to suffer her mother's habit of other characters around her being more important than herself.
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Old 2013-03-27, 16:13   Link #2812
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Focus, on this case, will be staying with one story. Either Vivio’s, the tournament or the ancient Belka thing. Then keeping that as a constant theme gives us some sense of continuity with the actions of the characters beyond the weak links the tournament creates. This fights come first and then this one and then this one, etc. And I already say why I think the tournament is so bad on itself because the way is introduce and happen here.

Now about the characters themselves they do have problems. The cast is too large and I really have problems keeping up with them because I am not sure what their roles are. The story is lost on who is the main character and with this many people around some of the new ones obscure the old ones and then the old ones return to a spot light only to be send back again in the sideline. There is when the focus also loses me. Characters are not stable and when I need to comment on them individually there is not much to say.
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Old 2013-03-27, 16:17   Link #2813
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Focus, on this case, will be staying with one story. Either Vivioís, the tournament or the ancient Belka thing.
You're disregarding shit again, and it's getting really friggin' annoying. The tournament was a lead-in to the Old Belka plotline, it appears, so they're bloody well connected to each other. Christ, you think there's no story and bitch about it, and when it proves that there's a story, you bitch about it anyway.
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Old 2013-03-27, 16:53   Link #2814
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Now about the characters themselves they do have problems. The cast is too large and I really have problems keeping up with them because I am not sure what their roles are. The story is lost on who is the main character and with this many people around some of the new ones obscure the old ones and then the old ones return to a spot light only to be send back again in the sideline. There is when the focus also loses me. Characters are not stable and when I need to comment on them individually there is not much to say.
Fun fact: A's had about... 15 important characters.

Anyway, the story's not really lost on who's the main character. From the beginning until now, Einhart's always been at the center of everything. And I'm not seeing this obscuring you're talking about. At all. And what do you mean by stability? Consistency? Because the characters have all been very consistent so far, natural growth of character included.
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Old 2013-03-27, 19:10   Link #2815
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No really, A’s had 5 important characters. Or 8 if you really push it.

Now what I mean is how nobady has been at the center for too long. First was Vivio knowing Einhart while starting a new school year and ready for her adventure. Then we jump to Einhart, who was befriended and add to the cast in such rushed way, and how she learns about Vivio. Then is this tournament that we never mention before but that is super important and all the people on it that fight so they can… win. Now is Sieg and Einhart’s ancestors being related to Vivio’s in the past… we shift the tone, the story and the characters all along. That is part of my problems with the story.
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Old 2013-03-27, 19:14   Link #2816
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No really, A’s had 5 important characters. Or 8 if you really push it.
Nanoha, Fate, Graham, Vita, Signum, the twins, Zafira, Arf, Chrono, Hayate, Shamal, Yuuno...

I count 13 off the top of my head.
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Old 2013-03-27, 19:17   Link #2817
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And yet you feel the need to put the twins as if they were a single character. However that is for the A’s thread.
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Old 2013-03-27, 19:20   Link #2818
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Too bad, we're allowed to use comparisons in our examples; quit using it as an excuse to worm out of your falsehood argument.
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Old 2013-03-27, 19:22   Link #2819
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That still doesn’t make this the A’s thread to discuss who is and who isn’t an important character in that series.
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Old 2013-03-27, 19:23   Link #2820
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For the most part the Twins were basically one character.

That still leaves like twelve characters.
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