AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Games

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-03-27, 03:54   Link #201
Sides
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Edinburgh
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
He's not the one really denying you Versus or KH III, that's mostly up to Nomura and if anything can be learned from past big console titles with similar troubles (i.e FFXII and XIII) that team wasn't really prepared next gen either.
Normally the CEO and others in the upper management will halt such a project, because it takes up too much resources and the final project might not even break even when it makes it out onto the market. So in a sense Wada and his lackies were wrong to give Nomura and Toriyama too much freedom and trust.

So at the moment I'm still hoping, as a gamer, that XIII: Versus will be released, but my common sense tells me that this game is dead, or will be branded as something else.
Sides is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-27, 03:57   Link #202
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
We already have 3 FFXIII games. Sadly I feel the damage is done and Versus is better off cutting ties to the "XIII" name entirely.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-27, 12:44   Link #203
Sassarai
Army of One
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
I bet if FF7 was released during this era of jrpgs instead of the golden age, it probably wouldn't meet sales expectations either.
Sassarai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-27, 20:48   Link #204
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
I bet if FF7 was released during this era of jrpgs instead of the golden age, it probably wouldn't meet sales expectations either.
FF7 is far more ambitious and grand than any current FFs. That's why it isn't possible to create a modern remake; to re-create everything in modern CGI would be impossibly expensive.

I mean, there is a reason they said having shops is too hard in FFXIII. There are just too many characters and backgrounds to re-create. Current SE is not capable of replicating VII while still earn a profit.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-27, 20:53   Link #205
creb
Hiding Under Your Bed
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
FF7 is far more ambitious and grand than any current FFs. That's why it isn't possible to create a modern remake; to re-create everything in modern CGI would be impossibly expensive.

I mean, there is a reason they said having shops is too hard in FFXIII. There are just too many characters and backgrounds to re-create. Current SE is not capable of replicating VII while still earn a profit.
Oh, I've heard this excuse so many times. I just don't believe it, because it makes no real sense.

I can't help but think of Hitler every time I hear this excuse that modern CGI is too expensive to allow the type of expansive worlds we had in the past. What hogwash.

There are western games far more expansive than say...FF 13, without having mediocre graphics.

Now, don't get me wrong. I don't doubt for a minute that it is too "expensive" for SE to do, but not because it's actually too expensive, but because whoever is managing these games, is incredibly bad at their job.
creb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-27, 20:57   Link #206
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
On the other hand, back at Metal Gear 5 Kojima has showcased his Fox engine that allows his team to create realistic texture easily via simulation. I am not saying it is impossible, I am saying with what Square currently have they can't do it. They need what Kojima has, the means to create people and clothing in HD that are as fast as back when FF7 create polygon people.

Re-creating FF7 is only a matter of graphics, as the rest of the game already exists. That's why I say the only limitation is the CGI. And SE is extremely inefficient at it. Like that short tech film they put out recently that took them 2 years to create. You can't expect to raise the graphics all the time without finding a way to speed up the production time as well.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-27, 21:29   Link #207
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
I don't think it's possible for Square to remake FFVII without changing the game mechanics.

While I do think they could easily remake the ATB battle system since it would just be a modification of what XIII is already, I don't think they have what it takes to recreate FFVII's massive open world in HD graphics. Instance-based areas like a town or dungeon area is very possible, since that's what they already do with FFXIII and the Kingdom Hearts series: load one section of the area you are in like a "room", then load the next when you reach the "door" of that room to the next area.

Rendering a large, open world seamlessly however is an entirely different ordeal however. It would be too large of a strain if the processing unit has to load every single texture and model required on the world, so what most open world MMORPGs like WoW, Perfect World, etc and other games with an overworld like The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Super Mario 64, etc. do is that they limit your field of vision, where certain landscapes and other models don't appear until you are within a certain distance from the thing that needs to be loaded.
Other games like Tales of Symphonia, and Final Fantasy VII itself have their corners cut by chibifying the models on the overworld. The models are shrunken and far less detailed, making them easier to render.

Expecting Square or any company to render a large open field in current Metal Gear Solid or Final Fantasy graphics is asking for too much.
Shadow5YA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-27, 23:38   Link #208
Iron Maw
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sides View Post
So at the moment I'm still hoping, as a gamer, that XIII: Versus will be released, but my common sense tells me that this game is dead, or will be branded as something else.
There's too much work and hype put into Versus at this point for it not to come out. Whether it's renamed something else is or not doesn't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
FF7 is far more ambitious and grand than any current FFs. That's why it isn't possible to create a modern remake; to re-create everything in modern CGI would be impossibly expensive
I think SE is capable of remaking FFVII on consoles, but the time and effort spent on that instead of a brand new FF would be hard to justify especially with such a different market as we have today.

Quote:
I mean, there is a reason they said having shops is too hard in FFXIII. There are just too many characters and backgrounds to re-create. Current SE is not capable of replicating VII while still earn a profit.
It was Towns not shops (which FFXIII-2 had anyway). To be quite frank they aren't be far the only one ones having trouble in this area. Hell, Xenoblade barely has any buildings the player can enter and most of cities vary between one to two screens despite being the most expansive game this gen. Most other RPGs nowadays either have one hub with limited interaction or the buildings are just window dressing.
Iron Maw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-28, 01:28   Link #209
Sassarai
Army of One
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
What was the last jrpg that was a major hit in the U.S?
Sassarai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-28, 03:08   Link #210
ZGoten
Custom User Title
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Age: 24
Send a message via ICQ to ZGoten
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
What was the last jrpg that was a major hit in the U.S?
Well, what qualifies as a major hit? FFXIII sold 2.7 million copies in NA (1.57 for the PS3 and 1.13 for the 360). That's quite a lot, actually. However, Pokemon Black and White, which are also JRPG's from 2010, sold 5.3 million copies combined. The follow up games fell down to 1.99 million sales in 2012. Aside from that, though, there hasn't been any JRPG in the past five years, that passed the 1.5 million mark. Not even the Persona series.

There were a few games that should have, though. Like The Last Story and Xenoblade Chronicles. Sadly they only sold 180.000 and 390.000 units respectable. It kind of makes me angry at the market, to see such excellent games not getting the sales they deserve.

Source: vgchartz.com
__________________
Truth is elusive to those who refuse to see with both eyes.
ZGoten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-28, 05:41   Link #211
Sides
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Edinburgh
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
Well, what qualifies as a major hit? FFXIII sold 2.7 million copies in NA (1.57 for the PS3 and 1.13 for the 360). That's quite a lot, actually. However, Pokemon Black and White, which are also JRPG's from 2010, sold 5.3 million copies combined. The follow up games fell down to 1.99 million sales in 2012. Aside from that, though, there hasn't been any JRPG in the past five years, that passed the 1.5 million mark. Not even the Persona series.

There were a few games that should have, though. Like The Last Story and Xenoblade Chronicles. Sadly they only sold 180.000 and 390.000 units respectable. It kind of makes me angry at the market, to see such excellent games not getting the sales they deserve.

Source: vgchartz.com
Thing is most people I know, paid around 15-19 for FXIII and XIII-2 during the launch month. Someone made massive losses selling this game, who? i don't know, but shifting volumes doesn't necessarily means that it is a profitable product. If you compare it to atlus games, iirc, just like nintendo games they are rarely discounted, those games don't need to sell that high to be a hit and profitable for them.
Sides is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-28, 06:09   Link #212
ZGoten
Custom User Title
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Age: 24
Send a message via ICQ to ZGoten
Frankly, I haven't heard of anyone paying that little during march of 2010. But even if that had been true for most of the people, which I highly doubt, FFXIII would have still made more money than say Persona 4. In that case it sold for just one fourth of the price but it sold about eight times the amount of units (FFXIII: 2.7 mill, P4: 0.34 mill). So in essence, that's still twice as as much money. Of course one has to consider production costs as well, which I suppose where higher in the case of FFXIII.
__________________
Truth is elusive to those who refuse to see with both eyes.
ZGoten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-28, 08:51   Link #213
Xagzan
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
I don't think it's possible for Square to remake FFVII without changing the game mechanics.

While I do think they could easily remake the ATB battle system since it would just be a modification of what XIII is already, I don't think they have what it takes to recreate FFVII's massive open world in HD graphics. Instance-based areas like a town or dungeon area is very possible, since that's what they already do with FFXIII and the Kingdom Hearts series: load one section of the area you are in like a "room", then load the next when you reach the "door" of that room to the next area.

Rendering a large, open world seamlessly however is an entirely different ordeal however. It would be too large of a strain if the processing unit has to load every single texture and model required on the world, so what most open world MMORPGs like WoW, Perfect World, etc and other games with an overworld like The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Super Mario 64, etc. do is that they limit your field of vision, where certain landscapes and other models don't appear until you are within a certain distance from the thing that needs to be loaded.
Other games like Tales of Symphonia, and Final Fantasy VII itself have their corners cut by chibifying the models on the overworld. The models are shrunken and far less detailed, making them easier to render.
I'm no tech genius: why were graphics like this possible then? Just because of the animation style?

Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post

It was Towns not shops (which FFXIII-2 had anyway). To be quite frank they aren't be far the only one ones having trouble in this area. Hell, Xenoblade barely has any buildings the player can enter and most of cities vary between one to two screens despite being the most expansive game this gen. Most other RPGs nowadays either have one hub with limited interaction or the buildings are just window dressing.
Actually the first real town I'm seeing in Ni No Kuni reminds me of the old school FFs more than any other RPG I've played in recent memory. You have your mostly linear streets, several shops and inn that you can enter and are stunningly detailed (duh, Ghibli), and I'm presuming there are a couple of other buildings open to you. It's really quite refreshing...in a familiar sort of way.

Yes, Xenoblade was vast and open, with a "go absolutely anywhere as long as it's in this outside area" attitude, but in exchange for this it sacrificed more interactivity with the environment. NNK, as far as towns are concerned at least, seems to have gone the opposite direction.
Xagzan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-28, 10:22   Link #214
amaterasu4
CAUSE I FEEEEEEEEEEEEEL!!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Shame Car
Wonder when we'll have an official announcement that Versus became FF15. Isn't the Tokyo Game Show in some weeks?
amaterasu4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-28, 10:30   Link #215
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xagzan View Post
Yes, Xenoblade was vast and open, with a "go absolutely anywhere as long as it's in this outside area" attitude, but in exchange for this it sacrificed more interactivity with the environment. NNK, as far as towns are concerned at least, seems to have gone the opposite direction.
I got sick of NNK's towns the fiftieth time I was forced to walk from one end of Hamelin to the other... I'd rather have no towns at all than something like that.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-28, 13:12   Link #216
Folenfant
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
Well, what qualifies as a major hit? FFXIII sold 2.7 million copies in NA (1.57 for the PS3 and 1.13 for the 360). That's quite a lot, actually. However, Pokemon Black and White, which are also JRPG's from 2010, sold 5.3 million copies combined. The follow up games fell down to 1.99 million sales in 2012. Aside from that, though, there hasn't been any JRPG in the past five years, that passed the 1.5 million mark. Not even the Persona series.

There were a few games that should have, though. Like The Last Story and Xenoblade Chronicles. Sadly they only sold 180.000 and 390.000 units respectable. It kind of makes me angry at the market, to see such excellent games not getting the sales they deserve.

Source: vgchartz.com
I bought both yet still haven't gotten around to either.

Also Square Unix published Just Cause 2 which features a MASSIVE open world with tons of detail so they have plenty of experience there. I don't see why creating something like FFVIIs open world in HD would be beyond the realm of possibility. Maybe they could also take some pointers from what Namco Tales studio is doing with their graphics to get around some of the difficulties or developing for HD consoles. Tales of Xillia looks absolutely gorgeous despite apparently not taking 5+ years to develop.
Folenfant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-28, 13:13   Link #217
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I got sick of NNK's towns the fiftieth time I was forced to walk from one end of Hamelin to the other... I'd rather have no towns at all than something like that.
Towns in old RPGs allow you to literally run from one side to the other in seconds. But once you start portraying towns in realistic sizes and also restrict running speed realistically, going around town become a time waster.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-28, 13:22   Link #218
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
Well, what qualifies as a major hit? FFXIII sold 2.7 million copies in NA (1.57 for the PS3 and 1.13 for the 360). That's quite a lot, actually. However, Pokemon Black and White, which are also JRPG's from 2010, sold 5.3 million copies combined. The follow up games fell down to 1.99 million sales in 2012. Aside from that, though, there hasn't been any JRPG in the past five years, that passed the 1.5 million mark. Not even the Persona series.

There were a few games that should have, though. Like The Last Story and Xenoblade Chronicles. Sadly they only sold 180.000 and 390.000 units respectable. It kind of makes me angry at the market, to see such excellent games not getting the sales they deserve.

Source: vgchartz.com
Bigger companies for mainstream titles put more money into developing the game and promoting it via advertisements.

Final Fantasy is anything but a niche game, so S-E naturally would expect several million copies sold.

Let's say for example that the next mainline 3D Mario game only sells 1 million copies. Considering its history would you honestly consider that number to be a success?


Perhaps there is a bit of a "power creep" on expectations, but the fact is that bigger titles have high expectations for success placed on them.
Shadow5YA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-28, 13:26   Link #219
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Towns in old RPGs allow you to literally run from one side to the other in seconds. But once you start portraying towns in realistic sizes and also restrict running speed realistically, going around town become a time waster.
Well, part of that is certainly because NNK is a poorly-designed game more than anything else...
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-28, 15:18   Link #220
RRW
Unspecified
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Unspecified
Quote:
Originally Posted by amaterasu4 View Post
Wonder when we'll have an official announcement that Versus became FF15. Isn't the Tokyo Game Show in some weeks?
You meant E3?
__________________
RRW is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.