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Old 2013-03-19, 09:58   Link #2021
NeutralZero
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Originally Posted by Fwarlord View Post
Women can choose love over their pride, especially someone as passionate and innocent in love as "her".
True to that...
but not to her...
She could have chosen to run away with him in the earlier chapter when he asked her to join him yet she didn't...
Before she joined them(assuming she will and hope she will) a very and we mean a really very big development is needed to overwrite her pride and current virtue...

If that's an easy thing to do to make an individual suddenly change with little to no stimulus then behaviorism and psyco-social development and the likes would lose all meaning...

Last edited by NeutralZero; 2013-03-19 at 10:06. Reason: add on
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Old 2013-03-19, 11:30   Link #2022
Mentar
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Originally Posted by Soji View Post
Seriously?
Coperare with Esdese of all people? The same Esdes that enjoy torture, kill, humiliate and let her men rape the girls of the village that she conquest?
Right. Let Esdese cooperate with the same people who mutilate and murder left and right - the Night Raid.

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But of course she is pretty and dere dere with Tatsumi so she is the perfect ally and help to solve something like this.
It's not about being pretty. It's about enabling Tatsumi to fulfill his dream. Whoever seriously thinks that Tatsumi can achieve that via Night Raid murders probably also thinks that the US can pacify Afghanistan via drone strikes. It's not going to happen.

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But of course who cares that she is a sadistic and psycho and that if Tatsumi do something like that would destroy his character.
It would not destroy his character at all, just the opposite. Tatsumi is no murderous avenger, he wants to HEAL the republic. And he is uniquely suited to build this bridge due to his special relationship with Esdese. He can't succeed by killing her, he can only succeed by ARRANGING HIMSELF with her.

This is exactly where our opinion simply differ. You, Soji, have this strange notion that all it takes for the story to reach a happy ending is to have your "Justice" side kill all evildoers. Unfortunately, that's exactly the OPPOSITE of what I think the story is about, namely showing that there is no such thing as a "good" and "bad" side. Showing that merely fighting to avenge former comrades only guarantees PERPETUAL BLOODSHED. And showing that in order to overcome this cycle of violence you need to be able to arrange yourself with your former enemies.

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Really I cant belive that many people forgive Esdes,Kurome and even Justice girls only because they are cute.
Seriously man, you're the posterboy avatar of the very thinking which the story _criticizes_.

Ah well. We'll just have to wait until we reach the ending, I guess. And then see who was right.
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Old 2013-03-19, 11:48   Link #2023
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Right. Let Esdese cooperate with the same people who mutilate and murder left and right - the Night Raid.



It's not about being pretty. It's about enabling Tatsumi to fulfill his dream. Whoever seriously thinks that Tatsumi can achieve that via Night Raid murders probably also thinks that the US can pacify Afghanistan via drone strikes. It's not going to happen.



It would not destroy his character at all, just the opposite. Tatsumi is no murderous avenger, he wants to HEAL the republic. And he is uniquely suited to build this bridge due to his special relationship with Esdese. He can't succeed by killing her, he can only succeed by ARRANGING HIMSELF with her.

This is exactly where our opinion simply differ. You, Soji, have this strange notion that all it takes for the story to reach a happy ending is to have your "Justice" side kill all evildoers. Unfortunately, that's exactly the OPPOSITE of what I think the story is about, namely showing that there is no such thing as a "good" and "bad" side. Showing that merely fighting to avenge former comrades only guarantees PERPETUAL BLOODSHED. And showing that in order to overcome this cycle of violence you need to be able to arrange yourself with your former enemies.



Seriously man, you're the posterboy avatar of the very thinking which the story _criticizes_.

Ah well. We'll just have to wait until we reach the ending, I guess. And then see who was right.
TBF the purpose of Night raid is to assassinate key members to allow the rebel army operative word being army to take control. That is possible with nightraid though it would very difficult. Killing esdes alone would be a massive blow to the countries army, killing the prime minister and they would probably be able to successfully pull off a coup d'etat assuming his son doesn't acquire enough power to smoothly succeede him.

Whether the country would actually be better for it would be anyones guess.
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Old 2013-03-19, 13:19   Link #2024
Mentar
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
TBF the purpose of Night raid is to assassinate key members to allow the rebel army operative word being army to take control.
No, this is not the purpose of NR. The purpose of NR is to assassinate bad guys for revenge, and NR takes gold for these hit contracts. Reread the early chapters.
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Old 2013-03-19, 16:07   Link #2025
willx
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
No, this is not the purpose of NR. The purpose of NR is to assassinate bad guys for revenge, and NR takes gold for these hit contracts. Reread the early chapters.
In addition to softening the enemy up so that the Rebel Army can eventually come in and take control. You should also re-read the early chapters..
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Old 2013-03-19, 16:21   Link #2026
Soji
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Mentar@ Just to make clear I don't think that kill all the *evildoers* will bring the happy ending, hell I not even sure if there is a happy ending at the end of this story.
Also ,again even if something like that really happen , there is all the people that Esdes make suffer thanks all the people she killed and tortured I don't think that the people that have survived or/and the families and friends of the one that have died would take a well If Esdes is not punished.
Of course this can be said for all the NR and Jaegers , I really can't see one or more of them survive at the end of this story.
Whatever the NR survivors are betrayed by the RA or die in their last mission ...I don't know,but I'm pretty sure all of them will have their punishment.

After all the Nr tell this to Tatsumi that they are no hero and they know that their punishment will come sooner or later.

Tenchi Hou Take@ I agree with you.

willx@I thought it was also to earn the money they needs in addition to what you said.
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Old 2013-03-19, 17:06   Link #2027
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Soji: The point of the whole story is to paint a gruesome picture of a core reality: If you have two sides locked in a bitter deadly struggle over many years, then there is no way to EVER break this cycle of violence unless both sides learn to change and _forgive_ the murderous bastards from the other side, for the greater good. This "they need to be punished for their deeds" thinking is the biggest obstacle for any peaceful resolution. It may be emotionally understandable, but it is irrational to the highest degree, and it is very relevant in the real world, too.

This is one of the collateral damages that Hollywood style storytelling causes in real life: It breeds a generation of clueless ignorants who actually believe that all it takes is the "good" side to valiantly fight the "good" fight to reach the happy ending where everything is peachy. The world isn't like that at all. And this show manages to properly capture the essence of this truth.

So, the option is to continue the pointless carnage until everyone has been completely corrupted and cut to pieces, or to hope that it succeeds in pointing out that in the end, if you DO want real change and a chance to end a long war, each side will need to accept that the "murderous bastards" from the other side go scot free for the sake of the greater good. Due to the special relationship between Tatsumi and Esdese, I am hopeful that this is what we'll eventually see.

But hey, if you want to pick a side and cheer for it, be my guest...
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Old 2013-03-19, 17:18   Link #2028
OverSeer
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come on guys this becoming more like " I am right and you are wrong, listen to what i am saying" can we just drop it and see what happens?


I know how the story will end








..............................................HOW THE AUTHOR DECIDES, that is how it will end.
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Old 2013-03-19, 17:18   Link #2029
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Soji: The point of the whole story is to paint a gruesome picture of a core reality: If you have two sides locked in a bitter deadly struggle over many years, then there is no way to EVER break this cycle of violence unless both sides learn to change and _forgive_ the murderous bastards from the other side, for the greater good. This "they need to be punished for their deeds" thinking is the biggest obstacle for any peaceful resolution. It may be emotionally understandable, but it is irrational to the highest degree, and it is very relevant in the real world, too.

This is one of the collateral damages that Hollywood style storytelling causes in real life: It breeds a generation of clueless ignorants who actually believe that all it takes is the "good" side to valiantly fight the "good" fight to reach the happy ending where everything is peachy. The world isn't like that at all. And this show manages to properly capture the essence of this truth.

So, the option is to continue the pointless carnage until everyone has been completely corrupted and cut to pieces, or to hope that it succeeds in pointing out that in the end, if you DO want real change and a chance to end a long war, each side will need to accept that the "murderous bastards" from the other side go scot free for the sake of the greater good. Due to the special relationship between Tatsumi and Esdese, I am hopeful that this is what we'll eventually see.

But hey, if you want to pick a side and cheer for it, be my guest...
Fact of the matter is if this was real life Esdese would be tried and executed for war crimes, the members of NR not so much. There is indeed crimes within war that are deemed to be never commited and esdese has crossed many of those. It isn't actually exactly a silly notion when comparing the two sides, of course within the story they don't have the luxury or stability to declare such things but from a readers perspective there is a distinction, or least should be.

That's not to say she can't be forgiven since that depends entirely on the character but the two sides of this story aren't the same. At least from a NR jaegers perspective.
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Old 2013-03-19, 18:36   Link #2030
Xion Valkyrie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Soji: The point of the whole story is to paint a gruesome picture of a core reality: If you have two sides locked in a bitter deadly struggle over many years, then there is no way to EVER break this cycle of violence unless both sides learn to change and _forgive_ the murderous bastards from the other side, for the greater good. This "they need to be punished for their deeds" thinking is the biggest obstacle for any peaceful resolution. It may be emotionally understandable, but it is irrational to the highest degree, and it is very relevant in the real world, too.

This is one of the collateral damages that Hollywood style storytelling causes in real life: It breeds a generation of clueless ignorants who actually believe that all it takes is the "good" side to valiantly fight the "good" fight to reach the happy ending where everything is peachy. The world isn't like that at all. And this show manages to properly capture the essence of this truth.

So, the option is to continue the pointless carnage until everyone has been completely corrupted and cut to pieces, or to hope that it succeeds in pointing out that in the end, if you DO want real change and a chance to end a long war, each side will need to accept that the "murderous bastards" from the other side go scot free for the sake of the greater good. Due to the special relationship between Tatsumi and Esdese, I am hopeful that this is what we'll eventually see.

But hey, if you want to pick a side and cheer for it, be my guest...
Your point would be valid if the author actually presented both sides in that manner, but the Empire has pretty much been consistently presented as the most depraved, corrupt, inhuman organization that would sooner kill off every one of it's own citizens than to negotiate any terms of surrender. Almost all of the soldiers we've seen working for the Empire are either extremely evil or outright insane. Only Wave and Bors are reasonable people stuck in a terrible situation, and Bors is dead. Seiryu and Kurome are kind of screwed in the head so their aren't as accountable for their actions. Frankly, even compared to real life conflicts the actions of the Empire would be topping the list for the most evil governments in history.

On the other side, we pretty much know nothing about the actual rebellion, but Night Raid themselves have been painted in an unrealistically positive light compared to real life rebels. They have barely any collateral damage, they investigate their targets before hand, and they pretty much kill in the quickest manner possible. All of the characters in NR have been portrayed with positive qualities and almost zero negative traits aside from the fact that they do kill people.

Also like Tenchi Hou Take said, if you want to make a comparison to real life, then most of the Empire would be tried for war crimes even after a settlement was reached. A peaceful settlement is also impossible if you look at the current state of the Empire. Remember that the prime minister pretty much killed all the politicians who raised any sort of objection to his tyranny. Esdes's had a personal assassin squad that specialized in those jobs, which Night Raid eventually killed. Even if the rebellion wanted to negotiate there is no one left in the Empire to negotiate with.

What you said could work for the story, but it'd require a lot of major changes to the characters. Here are my thoughts on how the factions could actually be balanced in terms of portrayal:

Prime Minister: I think somewhere in the story it was mentioned that the Empire is actually beset on all sides by enemies looking to invade it. The Prime Minister is basically doing his best to hold his country together. He declares martial law because there are many aristocrats who want to surrender (ie, they were bought out by the enemy) and have enough influence to get the senate/congress to consider such an option. He uses Esdese's hit squad to kill politicians he knows (or believes to be) sympathizers or even agents of the enemy nations, as he doesn't believe he could get them via lawful means and their potential for damage is too great to ignore. The son could be left as a depraved monster who still commits those atrocities, but the Prime Minister loves his son too much and turns a blind eye to his actions. The punishment he dishes out are extremely harsh because he needs to set an example, as well as show his enemies that he is not someone to be trifled with. He also turns a blind eye to the atrocities some of the capital aristocrats commit because he needs their financial support. He also can't be so strict on trying to bring them to justice because his own son is part of that group.

Esdese: The whole torture for pleasure thing probably has to go. The idea of strength = everything should be the primary motivation. She adopts a policy of total war in order to achieve her goals in the most efficient way possible. Ie, everything she does is done logistically, even if they end up being immoral. Hence, total annihilation of surrendering enemy forces because she cannot logistically keep prisoners while maintaining the safety of her own troops, etc. She'd wipe out an entire village to make sure that 1 spy does not escape with information critical to the safety of the Empire. She enforces military structure and law to such a strict degree that her own troops fear her, but it's what's necessary for her in order to fight off against the stronger neighboring nations. She strongly believes in the kill 100 to save 1000 'rule'.

Kurome: I think instead of her puppets being people she killed, they should be her dead friends from training. Hence every single one of her puppets is extremely important to her and losing them is like seeing them die again. They were also all killed by Akame, so there's a love/hate relationship between Akame and Kurome, where Kurome only hates her sister because her sister killed all her friends. Akame's goal could be the eradication of all the subjects from the experiments, as she feels they are unnatural and should not exist, whereas Kurome wants to live, and keep the memory and sacrifices of her friends alive.

Seiryu: She could still be insane, but mostly due to the fact that she cannot reconcile her sense of justice with the things she has to do for 'the greater good'. So her insanity is an escape in order for her fragile state of mind to hold itself together. She also owers her life to the doctor and this adds to her state of mental conflict, as the doctor represents everything she is supposed to fight as a believer of justice.

Doctor: He could still be just as evil as he is originally portrayed. Everyone puts up with him because his skills are necessary.

The rebellion would be funded by politicians who want to seize power for themselves, as well as the foreign nations who want to take control of the Empire (think US proxies in the Middle East). They recruit people who have been harmed by the policies of the current Prime Minister and put them in the front line, forming the Night Raid. Thus Night Raid are really just cannon fodder who are led to believe they are fighting for a just cause but in reality are just pawns of the very aristocrats they are fighting to bring down.

Last edited by Xion Valkyrie; 2013-03-19 at 19:36.
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Old 2013-03-19, 21:51   Link #2031
Fwarlord
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Originally Posted by NeutralZero View Post
True to that...
but not to her...
She could have chosen to run away with him in the earlier chapter when he asked her to join him yet she didn't...
Before she joined them(assuming she will and hope she will) a very and we mean a really very big development is needed to overwrite her pride and current virtue...

If that's an easy thing to do to make an individual suddenly change with little to no stimulus then behaviorism and psyco-social development and the likes would lose all meaning...
Things just need time to work out, please be patient
The more time and memories she share with Tatsumi, the larger their love will grow.
I have read a lot of series where main characters' love interest are full of pride and their bitchiness have no end (Taiga in Toradora, Louise in Znt, Aria in HnA), but somehow things work so well with them. They all managed to win main characters' heart without destroy their own images. So there is no reason it's not the same in Esdese's case.

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Originally Posted by Soji View Post
Also ,again even if something like that really happen , there is all the people that Esdes make suffer thanks all the people she killed and tortured I don't think that the people that have survived or/and the families and friends of the one that have died would take a well If Esdes is not punished.
Of course this can be said for all the NR and Jaegers , I really can't see one or more of them survive at the end of this story.
Whatever the NR survivors are betrayed by the RA or die in their last mission ...I don't know,but I'm pretty sure all of them will have their punishment.

After all the Nr tell this to Tatsumi that they are no hero and they know that their punishment will come sooner or later.
Why would you want them to be punished so much?
If that "you killed people, you need to pay by your own life" kind of justice worked in every case, the would be no one dare to become general or soldier. Even in modern time, war crimes was committed in every war, but only a few amount of culprits was punished, let alone that fact that this manga's setting is similar to the Middle Age when punishing war crimes is nothing more than a laughing matter.
Let's take some example in ancient China. Generals at that time tend to kill enemies in the most inhuman ways and they don't care about the number at all. It's not unusual when ten thousands of people was decapitated or buried alive. And it's very normal for general to let their soldier go loose in cities they defeated, rob, kill, rape citizens and burn down structures. Despite that, those general received no punishment.
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Old 2013-03-19, 23:59   Link #2032
NeutralZero
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^point taken
But...
but...
and there's always a but... though that doesn't mean we're against the idea... but...
It's not that easy... will never be easy... but as easy as entering heaven... wait, that's not easy either...
We mention earlier and waaaaaaaay before this that before she even manage to overwrite her pride and initial upbringing brought to her by her 'very good father', a huge stimulus is needed...
Love or her loving him in a narrow minded yet pure way is as effective as putting a dust mask (rather than a chemical respirator) while painting... in short not enough...
The factor that differ between her and wretched bi***** heroine in the likes of Taiga, Aria, Louise and especially Louise (with Claire being second to our list) is that the MC is/are always by their side while in her case both characters' world is/are located at the far ends of the world kinda like the distance between heaven to hell and vice versa...
She love him so much... a pure first love that never dies...
he has taken an affinity for her but has taken the general idea base from his last interaction before their second parting that their next meeting will be like that of Madara and the first hokage...
For her to actually change they need to stay together for a longer period... or have the empire turn their back on her and have her as an enemy... (or other huge stimuli that is yet to come to light like the son of the PM and the third party of Lan)...

another reason why we mentioned that if a person easily change with little to no stimulus (humans need a huge stimuli for change) then the works of Thorndike, Erikson and the likes would and will lose all meaning... and her form of love is weaker compare to her base pride (and or ego) and childhood development... in the game of pulling or whatever it was/is called; love is being dragged to the ground or overpowered...

Last edited by NeutralZero; 2013-03-20 at 00:31.
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Old 2013-03-20, 02:42   Link #2033
Mentar
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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
Your point would be valid if the author actually presented both sides in that manner, but the Empire has pretty much been consistently presented as the most depraved, corrupt, inhuman organization that would sooner kill off every one of it's own citizens than to negotiate any terms of surrender.
If you mean the ruling class around the Prime Minister as "the Empire", then you're right. However, "the Empire" isn't fighting here - it's NR against Jaegers.

Quote:
Almost all of the soldiers we've seen working for the Empire are either extremely evil or outright insane.
If you mean the Jaegers, you're obviously wrong.

Quote:
Only Wave and Bors are reasonable people stuck in a terrible situation, and Bors is dead.
Bors was a nice guy who was a typical neutral soldier. Wave is arguably more "Lawful Good" than Tatsumi - he's formally working for the government in power, while Tatsumi is a murderer.

Quote:
Seiryu and Kurome are kind of screwed in the head so their aren't as accountable for their actions.
Seryuu is a classic victim of the war, who would have been a nice, kind civilian in a normal life, but who was warped and emotionally destroyed by loss and the drive of revenge. The sad truth is that Seryuu became who she was to a good part due to _Night Raid_.

Kurome's story is a bit more complex and not yet finished, so I'd like to withhold comments here.

And Esdese, who you left out, is also shown in a partially positive and partially negative light. The negative aspects - her extreme cruelty - have been explained with her past and how she grew up. Why give her her positive aspects if she's only supposed to be an antagonist?

Quote:
Frankly, even compared to real life conflicts the actions of the Empire would be topping the list for the most evil governments in history.
The _Empire_, yes. The Jaegers, no. That's the point. The Jaegers are introduced as pretty much the same kind of people as Night Raid. They're cut from the same cloth, just had the war toss them to different sides. Showing this equivalency (think Tatsumi-Wave for example) is the whole point of the story. There is no "right" and "wrong" or "good" and "bad" sides. We only get various shades of grey, and people are pointlessly dying.

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On the other side, we pretty much know nothing about the actual rebellion, but Night Raid themselves have been painted in an unrealistically positive light compared to real life rebels.
Oh really? Well, I see their deeds as a bit less glorious, honestly. As example: Am I supposed to admire Chelsea for killing Bors in a cowardly backstab assassination? Am I supposed to feel pity with her when her second attempt failed and she was killed?

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Also like Tenchi Hou Take said, if you want to make a comparison to real life, then most of the Empire would be tried for war crimes even after a settlement was reached.
Careful. If this (excuse me) naive logic would be applied back, Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld would have had to be tried for war crimes a long time ago for starting a war of aggression on purposely falsified evidence. This is the kind of "victor justice" in a war which is only seemingly over and rather still ongoing.

In those comparable cases in which a war was actually ended by compromise (e.g. the situation in Northern Ireland), there were no "war crime tribunals" at all, even though there was ample cause for something like this on both sides.

Quote:
A peaceful settlement is also impossible if you look at the current state of the Empire.
Again, you equate the Prime Minister with the Jaegers. In my opinion, that is patently wrong.

The Prime Minister is unquestionably displayed as consistently evil, without exception. The Jaegers are not. which is why I expect the story to end by the Jaegers turning on the PM. It will NOT end happily due to NR being victorious.

Last edited by Mentar; 2013-03-20 at 03:03.
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Old 2013-03-20, 05:50   Link #2034
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
If you mean the ruling class around the Prime Minister as "the Empire", then you're right. However, "the Empire" isn't fighting here - it's NR against Jaegers.

If you mean the Jaegers, you're obviously wrong.

The _Empire_, yes. The Jaegers, no. That's the point. The Jaegers are introduced as pretty much the same kind of people as Night Raid. They're cut from the same cloth, just had the war toss them to different sides. Showing this equivalency (think Tatsumi-Wave for example) is the whole point of the story. There is no "right" and "wrong" or "good" and "bad" sides. We only get various shades of grey, and people are pointlessly dying.

Again, you equate the Prime Minister with the Jaegers. In my opinion, that is patently wrong.

The Prime Minister is unquestionably displayed as consistently evil, without exception. The Jaegers are not. which is why I expect the story to end by the Jaegers turning on the PM. It will NOT end happily due to NR being victorious.
The Jaegars are pawns, just like how NR are pawns for the rebellion. Aside from Esdese they are basically expendable soldiers that have pretty much no say in the policies of the empire. Also, aside from Esdese, their battle power is not really higher than Night Raid, so the Jaegars turning on the Prime Minster would be no more effective than NR trying to kill the prime minister themselves. Only Esdese is in a position to try to topple the regime, and if she does, the other Jaegars might follow suite (although I'm pretty sure by that point there's probably only 1 or 2 of them alive).

Then there's the question of why Esdese would turn on the prime minister. Unlike some of the other Jaegars she has no moral conflicts with any of the policies of the Prime Minister. In fact, the PM and the current empire is an enabler of her desires to fight, conquer, and dominate. There's only two reasons why she might overthrow the Prime Minister. The first would be to overthrow him as part of a challenge. Maybe she feels all her opponents are too weak and the next most satisfying prey is the empire itself. This might actually be a possible route in the story, but in that case that'd just leave her as the final boss, as Tatsumi and Akame are still the main characters so their story needs a resolution, otherwise it should have just been written from Esdese's point of view.

The second possible reason would be for Tatsumi to convince her to turn to his side. However, he already tried once and failed because despite her infatuation with him, her belief in her ideals is stronger. There is no way she'd submit herself to the ideals to a man weaker than herself. So Tatsumi would need to become stronger both physically and mentally. Physically, I can see it happening as it's a pretty standard shonen trope to have your main characters become ridiculously overpowered. Mentally though, I don't really see anything Tatsumi can use to challenge Esdese's philosophy of the strong devouring the weak. His own beliefs are fairly naive and unrealistic and most of his actions are spurred on by his own emotions. He's no match against someone like Esdese who is fully in control of her own emotions and has the life experience to back up her view on life.

Quote:
Bors was a nice guy who was a typical neutral soldier. Wave is arguably more "Lawful Good" than Tatsumi - he's formally working for the government in power, while Tatsumi is a murderer.
I actually liked Bors a lot. He's probably the best written character in the series. He understands how his actions do not fit with his ideals, but he realizes that his ideals cannot protect his wife and child. Wave is pretty much just Tatsumi on the Empire side, but I don't think Lawful Good is actually any better than Chaotic Good, which is what I'd categorize Tatsumi as.

Quote:
Seryuu is a classic victim of the war, who would have been a nice, kind civilian in a normal life, but who was warped and emotionally destroyed by loss and the drive of revenge. The sad truth is that Seryuu became who she was to a good part due to _Night Raid_.

Kurome's story is a bit more complex and not yet finished, so I'd like to withhold comments here.
I don't particularly like how they enjoy making others suffer, but like I said they're not really fully in control of their actions so I can't really apply the same criteria on them.

Quote:
And Esdese, who you left out, is also shown in a partially positive and partially negative light. The negative aspects - her extreme cruelty - have been explained with her past and how she grew up. Why give her her positive aspects if she's only supposed to be an antagonist?
There's nothing particularly positive about Esdese. In her background, even her father says despite the fact that she's a natural born hunter, there's something 'missing' from her, and in that same panel it shows her with a very sadistic glare. Up until the point where she randomly falls in love with Tatsumi she's been pretty much portrayed as a sociopath, which to me makes the sudden introduction of her 'positive' qualities extremely jarring. It just makes her character badly written rather than making her a complicated character.

I also don't pity her like I do for Kurome and Seiryuu because so far, with the way she has been written, she is someone who is fully in control of her mental state. She has her own philosophy that she has forged through her life and there's no way Tatsumi's own naive idealism would be able to stand up to that, which is why I don't think she will side with Tatsumi.

The way Esdese is portrayed up to her love at first sight at Tatsumi reminds me of Irma Grese

Quote:
Oh really? Well, I see their deeds as a bit less glorious, honestly. As example: Am I supposed to admire Chelsea for killing Bors in a cowardly backstab assassination? Am I supposed to feel pity with her when her second attempt failed and she was killed?
They don't believe their deeds are glorious. They do them in order to fund the rebellion and also to try to minimize some of the damage the corrupt Empire aristocrats are doing to the citizens who can't protect themselves.

NR and Jaegars are both active participants in a war so there's nothing cowardly about using subterfuge and trickery to gain the upper hand. What separates NR from Jaegars is that NR really believes in the greater good the rebellion can bring about, whereas if you look at the Jaegars, their motivations is far more removed from what you'd consider 'just'. Bors completely abhors his actions and the policies of the Empire. Wave has a hard time reconciling his orders with his ideals too, but he still believes there might be some good somewhere, although his new motivation seems to be protecting Kurome. Esdese and Dr. Stylish pretty much are in alignment with the Empire's policies. Seiryuu is crazy and wants revenge and Kurome is there to kill her sister, as well as not get killed herself for being useless.

So on one side you have people who's motivations are as close as you can get to morally justified in a series like this, who's actions minimize collateral damage and don't try to inflict unnecessary suffering. Then on the other side you have people who don't believe in what they're doing, or are completely fine with how immoral their actions are, or are just crazy.

Quote:

In those comparable cases in which a war was actually ended by compromise (e.g. the situation in Northern Ireland), there were no "war crime tribunals" at all, even though there was ample cause for something like this on both sides.
Like I said earlier, there's no reason for the Empire or even Esdese to compromise with Night Raid or the Rebellion. Maybe if the actual Rebellion finally shows itself and it turns out to be a capable force. However, the compromise in Ireland was only reached after decades of fighting and pressure from the international community as well as dissension from their own internal communities. They haven't even started the 'war' yet in the Akame storyline.
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Old 2013-03-21, 08:21   Link #2035
OverSeer
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@xion you do know Dr. Stylish is dead right?
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Old 2013-03-28, 11:44   Link #2036
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chapter 35 of akame ga kill is out.
Spoiler for ch 35:
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Old 2013-03-28, 15:12   Link #2037
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Spoiler for 35:
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Old 2013-03-28, 15:54   Link #2038
Kleeyook
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Somewhere close to Valhalla
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Animesuki has become a horrible place for me to post my own opinion now that it seems to be filled with people who will always criticize anything they feel like.

The Empire is just simply horrible. It's unrealistically corrupted that I can't believe a lot of people still live there.

Of course the villains must have their own private life where they show their human side, but they're damn ridiculously ruthless when it comes to others, even their own citizens...

Those villains wouldn't be forgiven for their horrible crimes and be tried anyway. Do you have a guts to forgive a rapist who just rape your sister and kill her? Damn hypocrites! You can't! Then don't just fucking say something about double-standard or grey morality like it's nothing (seriously, do you think it'll make you look smarter to always cite those phrase?)! Horrible is simply horrible. While I'm against capital punishment, some other punishment need to exist in order to judge criminals, not just let them free and unrepentant, at least like how Pol Pot got house arrested and have to live alone and die alone for his ridiculously stupid campaign!

Esdese is a ruthless general, she treats her subordinates quite well and that's just about the only good quality she shows. There are many dictators who are as horrible as her in real world and they at least have their soft side, like...Hitler and Stalin, probably (and now I wonder any of you dare telling others that they're just a little ruthless dictators who have no choice but to purge millions of life for their own ambition?). But it doesn't change the fact that they should be punished for their war crime. Especially if the war crime they committed were to your loved ones...
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Old 2013-03-28, 17:31   Link #2039
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleeyook View Post
Animesuki has become a horrible place for me to post my own opinion now that it seems to be filled with people who will always criticize anything they feel like.

The Empire is just simply horrible. It's unrealistically corrupted that I can't believe a lot of people still live there.

Of course the villains must have their own private life where they show their human side, but they're damn ridiculously ruthless when it comes to others, even their own citizens...

Those villains wouldn't be forgiven for their horrible crimes and be tried anyway. Do you have a guts to forgive a rapist who just rape your sister and kill her? Damn hypocrites! You can't! Then don't just fucking say something about double-standard or grey morality like it's nothing (seriously, do you think it'll make you look smarter to always cite those phrase?)! Horrible is simply horrible. While I'm against capital punishment, some other punishment need to exist in order to judge criminals, not just let them free and unrepentant, at least like how Pol Pot got house arrested and have to live alone and die alone for his ridiculously stupid campaign!

Esdese is a ruthless general, she treats her subordinates quite well and that's just about the only good quality she shows. There are many dictators who are as horrible as her in real world and they at least have their soft side, like...Hitler and Stalin, probably (and now I wonder any of you dare telling others that they're just a little ruthless dictators who have no choice but to purge millions of life for their own ambition?). But it doesn't change the fact that they should be punished for their war crime. Especially if the war crime they committed were to your loved ones...
TBF the loved ones part is irrelevant, though your point still remains (as terrible as it is for something to happen someone you know practically everyone is someones loved one, it shouldn't play a part in your decision making otherwise you end up being capable of commiting crimes just as bad as those you hate, since simply being a soldier means your aiding the death of someones loved one and even soldiers from democratic countries will not be sqeeky clean).

Your point about dicators I find very true, Hitler stayed in power in Germany because there were people who supported him, he wasn't hated by most germans, heck if you were Aryan life was great. No one can rule with fear alone you can only stay in power with support, plenty of people are gunning for your position anyway if you don't have iron clad support you'll get back stabbed and betrayed.

Hitler wasn't voted into power by the german people hell he was losing support before he was given the position of Chancellor by the president, he did not have popular support but he had loyal followers, a lot of them.

Modern society does not Judge someone by the beliefs of ones followers but rather by their actions, and actions alone.

On another point I wouldn't say it was unrealistically corrupt to the point noone would want to live there. that's not how life works. People don't stay in war torn, poverty stricken, natural disastor prone places because they feel like it. They do it because they can't afford to move, have lived there all there lives and it was their ancestors land, there home, have family who are unable to move and they're unwilling to ditch them, are simply forced to stay due to national measures and a host of other reasons. There are places that corrupt in this world (obviously far more complex and not nearly as cartoony shallow) and yes people do continue to live there Though obviously most don't want to.
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Old 2013-03-28, 19:23   Link #2040
Kleeyook
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Join Date: Mar 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
TBF the loved ones part is irrelevant, though your point still remains (as terrible as it is for something to happen someone you know practically everyone is someones loved one, it shouldn't play a part in your decision making otherwise you end up being capable of commiting crimes just as bad as those you hate, since simply being a soldier means your aiding the death of someones loved one and even soldiers from democratic countries will not be sqeeky clean).

Your point about dicators I find very true, Hitler stayed in power in Germany because there were people who supported him, he wasn't hated by most germans, heck if you were Aryan life was great. No one can rule with fear alone you can only stay in power with support, plenty of people are gunning for your position anyway if you don't have iron clad support you'll get back stabbed and betrayed.

Hitler wasn't voted into power by the german people hell he was losing support before he was given the position of Chancellor by the president, he did not have popular support but he had loyal followers, a lot of them.

Modern society does not Judge someone by the beliefs of ones followers but rather by their actions, and actions alone.

On another point I wouldn't say it was unrealistically corrupt to the point noone would want to live there. that's not how life works. People don't stay in war torn, poverty stricken, natural disastor prone places because they feel like it. They do it because they can't afford to move, have lived there all there lives and it was their ancestors land, there home, have family who are unable to move and they're unwilling to ditch them, are simply forced to stay due to national measures and a host of other reasons. There are places that corrupt in this world (obviously far more complex and not nearly as cartoony shallow) and yes people do continue to live there Though obviously most don't want to.
Yeah, but what choices do they have left? Living in fear, hopelessly getting killed for the amusement of those psychos? They'll get killed if they don't fight back. I don't think it's grey vs grey but rather black vs grey at this point, or that their morale concept is too alien for us.

I don't think assassins are good guys either, but at least they didn't go around killing innocent civilians or average soldiers. The morale of the story is that not everyone will agree with your opinion and while it's OK to talk about your POV, you shouldn't just act like a realist and saying things your way trying to force everyone to simply agree with you.

I don't think the killing of those corrupted assholes are great either, but something has to be done. They wouldn't bother assort to assassination if they can pressure the the prime minister politically... well, even UN fail to reason with many dictators... and the problem with it is that we have no idea how to fix. No one does...

Life as aryans in Nazi Germany wasn't so good btw. Most of the victims of the holocaust weren't jews, but any races and anyone that the Nazi think they suck as well as their political enemies (communists, democrats). Most of the Nazi and germans didn't even know about the holocausts either, since it was supposed to be military secret, until some spies who infiltrated the concentration camps told the world.

And the majority of Germans weren't even the supporters of Hitler, it's just that Hitler's supporters were louder...

And lastly, I'm against capital punishment. But the punishment needs to exist, because it's impossible to forgive a crime and let the criminals go free without counter-measure that he will never commit the crime again. I know that it's ideal if the criminals repent and became good, but will that really happen? Some people can, some can't. If you were talking about the right of the criminals, then what about the victim's right?

BTW, Saddam was tried and hanged. Hitler killed himself and his family to escape capture and trial. Most of the tyrants who lost never met a good fate... But they'll keep doing that because some tyrants died normally (Stalin) and those who failed just happen to fail. It doesn't change the fact that it's horrible though. BTW, at least they still have their good sides, although to their enemies (or people they dislike) they would be like a demon.

The situation with corrupted and war torn countries are like those in Middle Eastern and Latin America (as far as the popular media cover), whether it's from the extremists or the war between the corrupted government and not-any-better rebels, and people from there fled their countries for such reasons. It's too messy there. But what will you do anyway? I'm not keen about accepting a lot of immigrants into my country (a lot of whom are so proud of their own country that they fled from), but would that make me look like a jerk without any chance for me to express my opinion? It'd be better if we somehow interfere with the conflict and fix their homeland so that we won't have to accept immigrants, but then the criticism will always come... whatever!
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