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Old 2013-03-29, 06:36   Link #81
Triple_R
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I'm just about positive that 2nd quote Midonin listed is from me, so I'm going to attempt to explain it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin View Post

Now, many people probably enjoy both of these things, or many of them. People who can enjoy over-the-top, somewhat fanservicey comedy and drama. People who can enjoy cute girls doing cute things with the background adding flavor and military things. But what annoys me about these two posts is the idea that the "fanservice fans" or the "moe fans" are somehow more gullible, and the ones who see what either show ends up evolving into and is glad it isn't another "generic" thing are somehow above them.
I don't think that fanservice fans are gullible. However, they aren't necessarily interested in the same things that I am. And that's fine - They have a right to their interests, and I have a right to mine.

With this in mind, consider the Love Live! series thread.

Some people there are focusing primarily, if not exclusively, on the following:

1. Putting up cute/sexy pics of various cast members.
2. Expressing appreciation over said pictures.
3. A sort of breezy back-and-forth where they write short posts admiring one or more of the girls, taking about making one or more of them their waifus, etc...

And that's fine. That's cool. I can get why people would enjoy this. Some of the pictures I like myself, and I might comment on the odd one.

But personally, I want to really dig into the plot, the wonderful drama, and the very solid characterization. And that's what I mostly do on the Love Live! thread. If you look over the 5 or so most recent pages on the Love Live! series thread, there really is a divide here. The people who are focusing on the pictures and breezy back-and-forth, are generally not the people who are delving into lots of discussion on characterization and plot. There's a couple people who do a fair bit of both, but that's about it, IIRC.


Love Live! has the eye candy for the fanservice fans, and it has some really good character development and plot twists/turns for those who want that.

Now, like you said, many people enjoy both of these things, so there is overlap here (not a clean division) and that's fine. But clearly not everybody is particularly interested in both of them. And that's why having both of them is noteworthy, imo. Having both of them increases the viewership. That's true of something like Sakurasou as well. If Sakurasou never had the sort of things I look for in an anime, I wouldn't think less of its fans, I'd just conclude "This show isn't for me". But it did have some of the things I look for in an anime, so I followed it for a long time, although admittedly I've had it stalled for awhile now.


If Love Live! took its characters and story much less seriously than what it does, I can't say for certain if I'd still be watching the show or not. The eye candy is nice, but I doubt I'd stay for that alone.

For me, strong character development and superb drama, framed well by the Director, are the highlights of the show - All of these impressively developed character relationship dynamics, and picture perfect plot/drama developments. Love Live!'s story might not be as complex as, say, many a Gundam would be, but it's story is nonetheless a very well-told one that is not pure fanservice. That's not an insult of fanservice fans. It's just a comment that Love Live could conceivably appeal to people with little to no interest in fanservice.


Quote:
I enjoy cute girls and nerd slang and marveling in the derivative works fan create based on these things, on character goods and character songs and anime that doesn't feel a need to conform to realism. The Akiba-type of fan and Akiba culture aren't just peripheral to anime, to me, they're a vital part of the experience. But all I ask is to not feel like, if I'm watching for those elements, that I'm just a tool of marketing, a momentary distraction before the "real" show begins.
These don't make you a tool of marketing. These are your tastes. That's fine. Many share your tastes.

Nonetheless, the anime industry is very in-touch with its core customer-base, and naturally will tend to give that customer-base the elements and things that it wants. There's nothing shady here. There's nothing wrong with this. Industries generally should strive to give their best and most reliable customers what they want. If they fail to do that, and such a product fails to succeed, that's the industry's problem, not the customer-base's.

But it's also nice, imo, to see something truly different every now and then. Something relatively fresh and novel. That's not to say that the norm is terrible. It's just to say that I don't want the norm all the time.


Quote:
Why always compare against a negative? You can build up a show's merits without tearing something else down in the process.
Let's say that a show looks like "the norm". But you want to convince people that it isn't the norm.

Let's say you were pitching Madoka Magica to someone who says "Sorry, but I'm just not into magical girl anime. It's not my thing. Too cutsey, sugary, and fluffy for my tastes." And you just know this guy would love Madoka Magica because beyond the aesthetics, it's precisely what he's looking for (i.e. dark, edgy, lots of drama, ensemble cast feel, interesting sci-fi and philosophical concepts explored, etc..).

Doesn't it help to say, "Yes, I know it looks like a classic magical girl show, but trust me, it's not"? If you don't make any such comparison to the magical girl norm, the guy might fear that your praise of the show is meant in the vein of "It's dark... for a magical girl show. It's edgy... for a magical girl show." Do you see the potential problem here?

It's better to make it clear how Madoka Magica differs from the norm for its genre, imo.
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Old 2013-03-29, 15:13   Link #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Let's say you were pitching Madoka Magica to someone who says "Sorry, but I'm just not into magical girl anime. It's not my thing. Too cutsey, sugary, and fluffy for my tastes." And you just know this guy would love Madoka Magica because beyond the aesthetics, it's precisely what he's looking for (i.e. dark, edgy, lots of drama, ensemble cast feel, interesting sci-fi and philosophical concepts explored, etc..).

Doesn't it help to say, "Yes, I know it looks like a classic magical girl show, but trust me, it's not"? If you don't make any such comparison to the magical girl norm, the guy might fear that your praise of the show is meant in the vein of "It's dark... for a magical girl show. It's edgy... for a magical girl show." Do you see the potential problem here?

It's better to make it clear how Madoka Magica differs from the norm for its genre, imo.
Completely reminds me of this
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Old 2013-03-29, 15:29   Link #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I don't think that fanservice fans are gullible. However, they aren't necessarily interested in the same things that I am. And that's fine - They have a right to their interests, and I have a right to mine.
The part I was focusing on was more that this theoretical boardroom meeting had the fanservice fans drawn in "first", followed by the word "deeper", which seemed to be placing hierarchies into things. It implied that the fanservice fans are somehow shallower or something like that.

Going back to Sakurasou (and the very similar Toradora), it's this idea that the energetic characters like Misaki and Minori have their energetic personalities as some sort of veneer and their "real" selves aren't like that rubs me the wrong way. I'd love a series with a bit of drama where the mood maker is like that because they're like that. They can get conflict from other areas, but it speaks to some larger train of thought where the comedy/fanservice elements are there to provide a springboard for the drama, where I often view things the other way around - the drama is there to support the comedy and fanservice which I now realize in midsentence sounds like I'd be supporting your view. The point is that we're coming at the same idea from opposite angles.

To give another example of what I'm trying to say, many shows in the "Watched, Expected, Got" meme have K-ON! in the second box, and every time I see it there, it sends a message about K-ON! (and moe as a whole?) that the fandom is still trying to come to terms with.
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Old 2013-03-29, 16:27   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
The part I was focusing on was more that this theoretical boardroom meeting had the fanservice fans drawn in "first", followed by the word "deeper", which seemed to be placing hierarchies into things. It implied that the fanservice fans are somehow shallower or something like that.
Deeper may not have been the best word to use.

Perhaps this would work better:

"Let's hook in the biggest fanservice fans first, and then see who else we can pick up through good character drama and romance." - Production Member A

"Agreed, but going by the three-episode rule, we need to move to that drama and romance no later than Episode 3." - Production Member B

My main point is that Sakurasou was designed to appeal to different fans looking for different things. That's all.


Quote:
Going back to Sakurasou (and the very similar Toradora), it's this idea that the energetic characters like Misaki and Minori have their energetic personalities as some sort of veneer and their "real" selves aren't like that rubs me the wrong way.
Actually, I agree with you there. What's wrong with a genki girl that's just sincerely genki? It's no less legitimate approach to life than any other. In fact, it's arguably a happier and more enjoyable approach to life than most.
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Old 2013-03-29, 17:22   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
The part I was focusing on was more that this theoretical boardroom meeting had the fanservice fans drawn in "first", followed by the word "deeper", which seemed to be placing hierarchies into things. It implied that the fanservice fans are somehow shallower or something like that.
Shallower is a loaded term. Creating character designs that fans will like is something every animation studio is capable of. Using these characters to interact and create comedy or drama that is widely appreciated seems more difficult given the fail rates.

If anime producers have a pretty good idea what pleases fan-service fans, this would make them less risky customers, while pitching a type of plot is a far more of a hit-and-miss thing. It's not necessarily involves a value judgment of the type of fan.
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Old 2013-03-29, 17:56   Link #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
My main point is that Sakurasou was designed to appeal to different fans looking for different things. That's all.
I know. I pointed out none of it was malicious, but I felt it provided a good jumping off point for me to get all that out.
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Old 2013-03-29, 18:14   Link #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
With this in mind, consider the Love Live! series thread.

Some people there are focusing primarily, if not exclusively, on the following:

1. Putting up cute/sexy pics of various cast members.
2. Expressing appreciation over said pictures.
3. A sort of breezy back-and-forth where they write short posts admiring one or more of the girls, taking about making one or more of them their waifus, etc....
Nice post there. Pretty true.
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Old 2013-03-30, 04:35   Link #88
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Hey, bunch of people with cute girl avatars and sigs defending cute girl anime! Geewiz.


I mean no offense, just humor. Carry on.
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Old 2013-03-30, 04:58   Link #89
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Hey, bunch of people with cute girl avatars and sigs defending cute girl anime! Geewiz.
Actually I prosecute some girl animes..
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Old 2013-03-30, 06:12   Link #90
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Feeling left out because the producers decided to cater to the miltakus rather than the "usual" crowd? So, how does it feel to be in the shoes of every of those who are out of the loop, have wanted something out of their anime watching experience, or those whose aesthetic tastes can't resonate with nowaday productions?

You used Aria in one of your example. But you have not mentioned that Aria also have meaningful development for Akari. Each episodes added to her character, each of her experiences with people and the places of the planet have added new layers to Akari's character, molding her into a full-fledge Prima and Martian rather than just a immigrant from Earth.

That genre is reviled by the people from the "other side" because the watching experience felt hollow, meaningless and wasted. The best entries of that particular genre are treasured because they have made their characters different from point A to point B, for Azumanga Daioh, someone like Sakaki finally gets a cat that don't run from her, in Aria, Aika becomes Prima on her own because she decided to be herself instead of trying to be like Alicia. As demonstrated by Aria, those characters don't have to go through suffering to become more complete characters. But at least show us that they are evolving.

In another genre and media, Junpei from Persona 3 is without a doubt one of the best side characters I have seen recently. He is the class clown. But he have doubted, have been shaked by his experiences both at schools and outside and he have a romance subplot that changed the man.

Now to go back to that "feeling left out" part, well, tough luck, deal with it.
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Old 2013-03-30, 14:30   Link #91
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Now to go back to that "feeling left out" part, well, tough luck, deal with it.
Except that wasn't the point I was hoping people would focus on. I also said that, I understand the situation, and wanted to find common ground. I fully understood the feelings I had for this show had more to do with myself than anybody else, and extended the olive branch. Getting rebuffed just sets everything back to square one.
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Old 2013-04-01, 03:39   Link #92
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Love Live!'s story might not be as complex as, say, many a Gundam would be
- It would depend on which Gundam series you're talking about. Some have complex storylines that make sense at the end, others are just a hodgepodge of stuff that eventually becomes a trainwreck. Even among Gundam fans there's no agreement.

Complexity of plot is just one factor. Storytelling method and medium is another. You could have a really straightforward story that still becomes apealing because of the way it's delivered. Or you can have a crazy, convoluted plot that's just pure gibberish because delivery was awful.

Question with the anime is: What are you trying to do? With most mainstream anime, the answer is simple: Sell more product.

Quote:
Let's say you were pitching Madoka Magica to someone who says "Sorry, but I'm just not into magical girl anime.
- The question is whether the individual person you're pitching it to does actually want to see something new or something different done with a story, or if they're that closed-minded. I still hear a lot of arguments about Madoka Magica starting with someone declaring it to be "Another Sailor moon ripoff" (Yes I hear these arguments a lot inside anime shops). Considering that the anime has been out for a while, anyone who's actually open about it would have googled it by now and gotten some clue.

Some do, many don't.
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Old 2013-04-07, 11:51   Link #93
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Originally Posted by wavehawk View Post

- The question is whether the individual person you're pitching it to does actually want to see something new or something different done with a story, or if they're that closed-minded. I still hear a lot of arguments about Madoka Magica starting with someone declaring it to be "Another Sailor moon ripoff" (Yes I hear these arguments a lot inside anime shops). Considering that the anime has been out for a while, anyone who's actually open about it would have googled it by now and gotten some clue.

Some do, many don't.
What do you mean by "new" or "different"? Because Madoka Magica is hardly original, at least not if you start looking outside of magical girl shows.

Also, since this is a thread about fandom, I need to ask something else: are yuri/yaoi fandom really homophobic when it comes to actual homosexuality? Like mentioned here:

Quote:
On 2chan, the response was, “why should I care?” and a lot of derision about lesbians and why they don’t want lesbians in their Yuri. That’s why this story is important. Because, no, Yuri fandom, especially the male half, are not more open-minded and accepting. If anything they are usually less – sexually immature sometimes, sexually conservative frequently. Otaku in Japan are rarely socially liberal. Social and political equality for gay couples is not even in the playbook, much less a priority.
How true is this, and has it changed since that was written? I haven't been able to find much about homophobia in this kind of culture besides things like companies refusing or being reluctant to sell/distribute yaoi or yuri media, (which is kind of irrelevant) and a post about the "yaoi/yuri is hot, real gay people are gross" attitude.

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Old 2013-04-07, 12:10   Link #94
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You should watch what you want no matter the content, but I think too many of us limit ourselves to subgroups to the point where we fail to acknowledge anything outside of our respective comfort zones.

This is another issue in the anime community that I think fans are exclusively to blame for. The medium really shouldn't be as divided as it is.
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Old 2013-04-08, 02:19   Link #95
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Old 2013-04-09, 06:38   Link #96
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OP's post is very meaningful and stands tall.

The obnoxious elitist vibes that come from some people that argue that modern fans only care about visuals/moe and don't give a shit about story or whatever, or that people's tastes are limited... well kindly fuck off. Practically no viewer has watched exclusively anime. They're had experience with other mediums and can adapt their experience to anime. I'm just going to say that just because you watch "intelligent" anime does not make you intelligent. >.>
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Old 2013-04-09, 08:03   Link #97
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There is also the fact that people enjoy and expect different things out of their media that pretty much come from what they were exposed to. Someone enjoy period drama like Versailles no Bara or HBO's and action movies like those starring Bruce Lee instead of craving for the "more sophisticated" Nouvelle Vague French movies is no less intelligent than those enjoying those Nouvelle Vague French movies, they just enjoys different things from you, that's as simple as that.
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Old 2013-04-09, 08:35   Link #98
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Apparently someone at GAINAX likes nouvelle vague films based on this extraordinary ED from Hanamaru Youchien. The Jean Seberg stand-in selling newspapers tipped me off.
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Old 2013-05-19, 14:37   Link #99
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This thread continues to be relevant.

Doesn't anyone feel a bit of irony when people who say that they are anime fans but then make derogatory generalizations about another anime fandom group that are resounding similar to the stereotypes put on by non-fans that attempt to generalize all of anime? I must say I think of ANN when it comes to this, but can't say they didn't deserve such a distinction.

I think it's because anime is a niche form of entertainment, and then people have a goal of bringing it to the mainstream. While this is a noble goal, it does feel like it frequently involves so much exclusion that it would force people to tend towards other conventional tastes, and I'll just say one must be careful of what one wishes for. One wants to be like "well, derp, anime is just as good as other forms of entertainment!"

For example, some people think anime is all porn and big boobs. So down with ecchi! It's the plague that serves as the #1 block to acceptance or some shit. Though not all anime is ecchi, and honestly society being too prudish to accept sexuality seems like a problem with itself.

Or the infamous lolicon/pedo accusations, frequently from moral pundits. We must artificially increase the characters' ages so it somehow makes it all better like they do in practically every eroge! And then they try to pass laws protecting fictional children while doing nothing about protecting actual people. Never mind that lolis don't actually resemble children, anime teenagers don't resemble actual teenagers and anime characters aren't actually people like us. Or one doesn't understand the more extreme version of Dawson Casting. Then again fools will believe playing a FPS encourages people to start murdering, so...

And then the whole weeaboo insult. Nobody wants to be called one, and obviously they are a lower form of life or something. Yes, it's insulting to take superficial aspects of culture and try to reenact them in a butchered fashion, but then again the idea that one shouldn't take on aspects of another culture just because they are not that race, seems umm... sorta racist. In any case, anyone that uses the term seriously is pretty silly.

Then again, there's nothing wrong with disliking any of this. It's just not good to be like "well, I like great anime, but those deviants are ruining it!" It's fine to say this trend is doing anime a bad name or whatnot, but fan hating does nothing, as anyone who's learned the concept of divide and conquer would know. My point is, you're not doing any good by creating additional fractures in an already marginalized group.

Though I do understand it's not easy. It'll take years for any progress to be made. I live ina country that finds exploding heads less offensive than naked people, after all. Of course, the more anime titles popping up at Fry's or whatnot that aren't hentai tend to be encouraging. Or the fact that they're even daring to sell hentai.
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Old 2013-05-19, 15:13   Link #100
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I personally view these attempts at trying to make anime more "presentable" and "serious" and "mainstream" as trying way too hard. I understand where the people doing it are coming from, but trying so hard to appear mature (to who?) makes the image of the anime fandom out to be insecure.

The message I want the fandom to spread is "fun", and being so uptight about being taken seriously has the opposite effect. One or two fanservice episodes or series isn't going to damage the macrofandom's reputation that badly. Or at all. That's the advantage of having an entirely new crop of shows every three months. Everything has a chance to shine - and writing off a good portion of it (and by extension, its fans) with a dismissive tone really doesn't help.
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