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Old 2013-03-27, 19:24   Link #2821
Nanya01
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
For the most part the Twins were basically one character.

That still leaves like twelve characters.
Well, if you count their masked men versions, then it's 13.
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Old 2013-03-27, 19:26   Link #2822
Keroko
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Now what I mean is how nobady has been at the center for too long. First was Vivio knowing Einhart while starting a new school year and ready for her adventure. Then we jump to Einhart, who was befriended and add to the cast in such rushed way, and how she learns about Vivio. Then is this tournament that we never mention before but that is super important and all the people on it that fight so they can… win. Now is Sieg and Einhart’s ancestors being related to Vivio’s in the past… we shift the tone, the story and the characters all along. That is part of my problems with the story.
There's really two main storylines in Vivid. The "I want to get stronger" line, and the "ancient Belka past haunts me." Both lines are connected, and have remained on the forefront consistently.

And pray tell, how would you have introduced the tournament? The training camp was a good spot for that.
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Old 2013-03-27, 19:43   Link #2823
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The first one is really nothing that counts because has been so poorly handle that I don’t even think it should be consider a story. Vivio wanted to be stronger and yet she acted like practicing her martial arts, at which she sucks by the way, is a game. They don’t handle the tone right. And I know Vivio can be good at fighting but I am trying to make a point here. Point being the "I want to get stronger" is not even a consistent theme that keeps along the series. Little girls beat each other because is fun and they will beat the one who beat them now because is fun. I really don’t get the “I want to be stronger” as something important when is use in such light manner.

At first Vivio did mention she wanted to be stronger to protect those she loves. Then again she always see this as her hobby, fun and never really see any kind of passion about it. And by passion I don’t mean enthusiasm. What I mean is that if this is something so important to her we could as well see it how and why is important instead of being told. Because as it is right now Vivio only sees this as a funny way to kill time. Not really the stuff of legends.

Now on that matter let’s bring the first season. For the record I am not against compare if use to illustrated a point, I am against it when the whole argument is “Well if that is bad, this is the same”. So back to the season the feeling of the Jewel Seeds where this dangerous crystals that cuase misery and problems. So we really learn why Nanoha must take those things away before they destroy everything. At no point Nanoha just acts like if this is the best moment of her life because she is flying and risking breaking her neck every single time she does it. The tone is set so we can learn why to care. ViVid on the other hand handle it poorly with Vivio acting like she doesn’t really care, friendly happy about it and the light sentiment really makes it feel like a harmless unimportant thing. The whole “I want to be strong part”.

The "ancient Belka past haunts me” part is even worse. At first it seems the real focus on the manga. But that was quickly ruin by Einhart’s introduction. Even so we could have a story but with the elements in place nothing happens. What I mean is that Vivio and Einhart become friends and want to be close to the other but is not until now, almost 40 chapters later, that they get the idea to find information about it. And only because Hayate bring that up. So how is that a key central plot if they didn’t even talk about it during the tournament saga? This is more interesting but generates so little that I don’t really see it as a theme up until now.

But that is just my opinion and, believe or not, the opposite is just your opinion. The fact remains on how things were handle but is up to us how we look at it. So really I am giving you my take on the matter and telling you why I think is a bad story, despite you disagreeing with me. So really saying that I call it “is just my opinion” to avoid being find wrong is not true since when it boils down to interpretation everyone has something to say.

And Keroko I would not introduce the tournament at all or I will introduce it early. The tournament was casually mentioned in the trip like an idea the author had in that moment. One of them just brings it up and then is all of the sudden important.
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Old 2013-03-28, 05:46   Link #2824
Uno Scaglietti
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the tournament was just a obvious plot device so that Vivio could see some of her ancestor's memory the trigger being einhart using her special move personally I like vivid a lot while the plot is not the fastest one I actually like the slice of life story telling even if it gets a bit heavy at times

and while this is Vivio's story its nice to see some more Nanoxfate I just wish the creator would grow a pair and have them kiss already I'm not expecting them to let us see them jump into bed or anything this is not a doujin after all but still all i ask is a single kiss

though the way they write now wouldn't surprise me if Nanoha is not even human but the freaking God Empress of Al Hazard reincarnate just you watch she's suddenly going to become SSS Rank by some strange plot device then get de-powered by Hayate Deus Ex Machina "I'm to afraid of my own power" so I don't want to improve at using it though knowing Nano being that wouldn't even phase her nor would she be mary sue but some reason Hayate and Fate would suddenly gain SSS too heck the potential is there Precia was according to her rank SSS i think and you know the odd thing i'm totally fine with that .......
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Last edited by Uno Scaglietti; 2013-03-28 at 07:03.
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Old 2013-03-28, 08:19   Link #2825
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
But that is just my opinion and, believe or not, the opposite is just your opinion. The fact remains on how things were handle but is up to us how we look at it. So really I am giving you my take on the matter and telling you why I think is a bad story, despite you disagreeing with me. So really saying that I call it “is just my opinion” to avoid being find wrong is not true since when it boils down to interpretation everyone has something to say.
So... what you're saying is that it's your opinion, and thus it's a fact? 'Cause that is at the core of why people disagree with you so much.

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And Keroko I would not introduce the tournament at all or I will introduce it early. The tournament was casually mentioned in the trip like an idea the author had in that moment. One of them just brings it up and then is all of the sudden important.
It was introduced in chapter 16. That's quite early.
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Old 2013-03-28, 11:40   Link #2826
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while there is still no real signs of the plot I just can't help but be charmed by Vivio everytime she shows be it in Vivid or Force its just something about her personality starting to wonder if Olive was the same if its some sort of genetic quirk

the expression she has in Issue 8 page 19 is still her best I can't help but laugh its so Kawaii
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Old 2013-03-28, 11:46   Link #2827
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No, what I am saying is that we all have an opinion and that is what we take as our own. Each have one, none being better than the other just because is something the other thinks. People disagree with my opinion but that doesn’t make it “wrong” or needs to end the debate with a single respond. I don’t think you proof me wrong on my opinion and so I let you know and why, but that doesn’t make you wrong either just that I don’t share your view of things. I can’t be more clear on this one.

Kereko, the problem is still how it was introduce and how that arc doesn’t come as a natural result of the first two arcs. They just say they will now do that without any continuity other than temporal and that was bad enough. But the tournament didn’t do anything that we didn’t have already. Just give us more faces to look at, instead of working with the ones we already had and introduce new characters if we need them.
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Old 2013-03-29, 06:55   Link #2828
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Sansker's stance: Since everything here are just opinions, none are truly "right" and none are truly "wrong". I am still right but you are not wrong either.

If it is, that is one fucked up stance. Cause really, following your stance, it would mean this: the idea of "Killing another person" for fun isn't that wrong - cause hey, there are people viewing their opinion (read: serial killers) - but since there's also people not accepting it, it's also not a right idea.
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Old 2013-03-29, 08:20   Link #2829
Uno Scaglietti
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I've been evaluating Heidi's motivation and I believe the real reason is not that she want's to become stronger for her self or even to prove the strength of her kaiser arts her motivation to be to be successful where Claus failed at first it was more a genetic thing pushing her in the right direction but as she gets to know Vivio the more she feels the need to protect Vivio her ancestor's feelings most likely play a large role in this but she also seem to know she's not Claus and Vivio is not Olive

the main problem with Heidi is that she needs to find her own path but the problem is that her own path looks exactly like Claus's path right down the fact that her feelings for vivio may in fact be exactly the same without any genetic reasoning you have two paths that look almost exactly the same for two different reasons how do you choose the right one

Vivio and Heidi have chemistry Vivio however has the omeka's manga funnies Nanoha Defense against Fate [those always made me laugh] but lets not forget that Heidi has a advantage in maturity thanks to her genetic memory while Vivio is merely 10 and her parent's strange relationship aside is not picking up Heidi's vibes which is most likely a good thing there has been to much loli already if they was ever going to make it "Nanoxfate" I'd be more comfortable if the writer waited until their Adult form was their actual form heck most doujins don't even have nanoxfate [i only read yuri straight is boring] until their at least 16 they had feelings before that stage but they was not "doing it"

But ultimately Heidi's motivation fueled by the power of loli love is to become strong enough to protect Vivio so she never have to make the self sacrifice choice that Olive made ..... as a big fan of vivioxheidi ..... you better get cracking if the Tournament is all the power you got your in serious problems here Einhart

at least one reassuring thing in this manga Sacred Heart don't seem half as Evil as Raising Heart ... I swear that thing is powered by the Lord of Nightmares or something from Slayers specially given the Omake though given Vivio's obvious Warhammer Reference I guess it's powered by the Blood God or something Sacred Heart that is
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Last edited by Uno Scaglietti; 2013-03-29 at 08:31.
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Old 2013-03-29, 08:27   Link #2830
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Sorry but... who the fuck is Heidi? Unless you mean Einhart.
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Old 2013-03-29, 08:30   Link #2831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhklan View Post
Sorry but... who the fuck is Heidi? Unless you mean Einhart.
Uno means Klaus Heidi Ingvalt.
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Old 2013-03-29, 09:11   Link #2832
Uno Scaglietti
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Heidi is the very first name she introduces her self as E.S is her middle name while Ingvald not sure if i spelled that right was her last
which I must admit I found confusing because one would assume she would use her first name rather then a middle name specially given her Family line pride

Though I suppose Einhart sounds "cooler" then heidi or something ... sighs loli kings one can never understand them
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Old 2013-03-29, 09:19   Link #2833
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Well I'm obviously not saying that the current Vivio is all powerful I'm just saying that she has the potential to even be more badass the nanoha or anyone in the franchise is while still not making her mary sue the ff 8 wannebe's just aren't doing it for me they use broken powers and relay purely on that over used concept
Again, based on what?

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Keroko is established that using the Cradle is pretty much akin to suicide there for by logical Olvie could not have gained her reputation by relaying on a ship that would pretty much kill her she has no control once she actually gets on the throne its like being a puppet as claus put it so by that logic her power and reputation had nothing to do with the cradle it self it was merely the Ultimate weapon on which to actually end the war but it required a sacrifice that hunts Einhart even to this day
Do you have any source that it's "established" that using the Cradle is akin to suicide? Because I have seen none.

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remember her legend don't come from using the cradle her term Saint King most likely comes from ending the war her legend as the ultimate warrior most likely came from actually fighting
.... No? Her legend comes from ending the war and being a powerful fighter. That's it. Not to mention that legends have a habit of growing beyond the truth, even more so when it comes to a central figure in religion.

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and saying Vivio will have a peaceful life is unlikely all hints to the Saint War restarting is actually there depending on how they write the story force may not ultimately matter in terms of story telling the whole ff 8 wannabe's may ultimately end up falling into the saint war if anything vivid will mostly just be the for shadowing but keeping the darker elements to force since it takes place like 2 years later
Saint War restarting? What? Where? There's been no sign of a large scale conflict anywhere in Vivid. Where are you getting all this?

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nah she wants to master striker arts despite the fact that people keep insisting she's not suitable for it since she maybe lost her Saint Kaiser armor which i always found kinda weird since her Data card after Strikerx actually state that Saint Kaiser Armor is actually one of her Abilties
Yeah, that's what we call a retcon. Old canon goes out the window to make room for the new canon. Never liked that it was just erased either.
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Old 2013-03-29, 09:43   Link #2834
Uno Scaglietti
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Well I never stated the saint war was restarting as fact but here's my take on Vivid so far
you have 4 Kings who was at least part of the Saint war [Saint kaiser, Hagemon, Lighting Emperor, Queen of the Netherworld. ] you honestly expect me to believe 4 people who played a part in the war magically reappeared? with memory intact seeing how even Vivio has memories that she can see on specific triggers

granted the Queen of the Netherworld has a habit of Zzzzzz'ing her way through history and I'm still not sure where the Lighting Emperor fits in but I just can't shake the feeling that this very convenient one is special ... .4 kings that usual means plot even if it's not easy to see

as for the Cradle being suicide did you forget the whole reason why Klaus decided it was a good idea to inflict his whole family line with curse of reliving his epic failure was exactly because Olive died using the cradle we both know the cradle is perfectly intact in Strikersx my take on the cradle is that it perhaps a double edge sword that it does not so much Empower as Drain what if you had a ship that by all right is the Ultimate Weapon but the price for this power was that who ever used it would ultimately bleed them self dry

If the Cradle was really such a weapon you might see why Klaus tried all he could to stop Olive from using it and his failure has torment him and all who came after him including our adorable einhart who has had nothing but nightmares until she met Vivio of course we can't exactly say there was love because in the nanoverse there no such thing even between dead people there might be a few hints but they never say well that person loves that person ......

but the story seems pretty Romeo and Juliet but that's my take on it
another thing on the saint war that bothered me is how the war ended and then it hit me ....... Olive most likely used the Cradle to nuke the various parties involved including perhaps Balka

by the time they finished with the final planet aka where the cradle was olive was mostly likely at death's door the ship crashed the survivors founded the Saint Church in her honor

which seems to have spread across the dimensions seeing how those nuns in force was mostly Saint King followers too
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Old 2013-03-29, 10:39   Link #2835
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But there have been no signs whatsoever of a war restarting. Heck, the only one of the kings of old that still commands an army is Ixpellia, who has expressed a great desire not to use it ever again. The others are just regular girls. Even Victoria, while being a rich lady, doesn't seem to be commanding anything.

Sure, all the kings of old gathering will lead to something, but a grand war? That's the least likely scenario right now.

On to the Cradle, Klaus never once mentioned it was the Cradle that killed Olivie. It is rather unlikely that it has a weapon that drains the caster since it's main reactor is the reason Vivio was so powerful during her fight with Nanoha in the first place. It gives energy, it doesn't take it away.

And we know it wasn't used to nuke all opposition, because the war was called the "Sankt Kaiser unification war" and was fought to unite the remnants of Belka, not destroy them (incidentally, Belka was rendered uninhabitable by pollution speculated to be caused by an unknown weapon before the unification wars had started).
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Old 2013-03-29, 10:56   Link #2836
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Originally Posted by Lhklan View Post
Sansker's stance: Since everything here are just opinions, none are truly "right" and none are truly "wrong". I am still right but you are not wrong either.

If it is, that is one fucked up stance. Cause really, following your stance, it would mean this: the idea of "Killing another person" for fun isn't that wrong - cause hey, there are people viewing their opinion (read: serial killers) - but since there's also people not accepting it, it's also not a right idea.
Everything is relative, Lhklan ...everything is relative xD

Maybe that guy do had a heavy reason for doing that? Maybe the person who died was an ever worse evil than the killer? For us in the west who were raised to believe lethal means are utterly wrong it looks horrible but that opinion doesn't hold truth around the entire globe. That was some extreme example the one you posted but even then it's all submitted to matter of opinion influenced by several stuff like culture, region, personal life experiences and such.

I don't believe in stablished facts nor in taking things for granted. Much less when it comes to works of fiction xDU
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Old 2013-03-29, 10:57   Link #2837
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Don't know what's been going on here, but...

Yuuno finally gets an appearance though it looks like it's just for a page where Vivio calls him, likely to ask if they can all go to the library.

So now Infinite Library shenanigans ensue.
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Old 2013-03-29, 10:58   Link #2838
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Don't know what's been going on here, but...

Yuuno finally gets an appearance though it looks like it's just for a page where Vivio calls him, likely to ask if they can all go to the library.

So now Infinite Library shenanigans ensue.
A male in Vivid!? SOMEONE CALL THE YURI POLICE!
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Old 2013-03-29, 10:59   Link #2839
Uno Scaglietti
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Empowering seems to be a emergency feature if it was not draining Vivio she would not have cried out it hurts

and Yuuno and here i was hoping the writer would have conviently forgotten him by now
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Old 2013-03-29, 10:59   Link #2840
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Eh? i tought it was already commented but yeah, Yuuno ..Adult Yuuno finally made an appearance on ViVid, you guys can now prepare for Armaggedon xD
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