AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Nanoha

Notices

View Poll Results: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's - Rating
Perfect 10 14 22.95%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 16 26.23%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 13 21.31%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 4.92%
6 out of 10 : Average 8 13.11%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 3.28%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 4.92%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.64%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.64%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-03-29, 10:31   Link #1041
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
speaking of which, what episode was this from
For those curious, it was ep 13, almost 14 minutes in.

Now, @Demi: Since our conversation is more of a comparison, I will make a post response in the other thread later.

@Triple_R: Our conversation has more to do with the movie itself and not as much of a comparison, so I think it is still okay to continue here. But there are two things I would like acknowledgement from you, before you read more into this post:

#1. You are aware that I said those are essentially potential cuts, essentially the maximum number of cuts I would make to free up some time. Depending on time needed, not all of them would be made. Please acknowledge this before you panic too much, so we can continue to have a nominal conversation.

#2. An understanding that you don't need to panic. You got what you wanted already, and you'll get more of it. Before you get really upset, realize that I have no power to alter what has already been done, nor what will happen in the 3rd movie, which will happen regardless of what you or I think. So calm down and try to understand, rather than blow a gasket.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'm tempted to stop reading here.

My first thought was...seriously? Probably the most emotional and emotionally satisfying NanoFate scene in the entire movie?

The scene where Nanoha reunites with Fate is an absolutely key scene for NanoFate fans. To take away Fate's "We're Friends" rescue and to take this scene away as well - Frankly, that strikes me as downright cruel and heartless to NanoFate fans.

And what truly puzzles me is this - Why target this and not some of the lead-up that came before it? 4:28 to 6:20 is all lead-up to this one moment. Most of this lead-up turns into an absolutely horrible tease without the emotional payoff moment that you would axe out. 5:43 to 6:10 is just flashbacks and Nanoha running. There's almost thirty seconds right there, and I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to trim 10 to 15 seconds from the other scenes at Nanoha's home.

You think Nanoha and/or NanoFate fans would miss this more than they would the actual reunion scene between Nanoha and Fate?
I figured you'd have questions, and I was hoping you'd ask for clarification. As I mentioned in this post you are replying to, I'd rather go with Fate swooping in to rescue Nanoha as their first meeting. I liked that scene in the series, more than how it was done here, and I think you agreed with this sentiment at one point. Having Fate and Arf double-team Vita quickly and knock her into a building and put up binds; complete surprise attack. Signum and Zafira quickly intervene, but not soon enough to break the binds, thus Vita is out of the fight for awhile (though she gets back into it and double-teams Fate with Signum to put Fate down).

Nanoha running, I could cut. In fact, good catch. The wake up part, was a concession to leave, because it shows that Nanoha is looking forward to meeting Fate that day... I'm just having the meetup happen later.

Quote:
Kaijo, I have to be frank - It's like you're either intentionally trying to destroy NanoFate, and are using "The plot, the plot! Everything for the plot!" as a pretext for doing so. Or you just don't get the emotional side of this movie at all (at least from the perspective of a NanoFate fan).
Let me be clear: I don't give a damn who my axe falls on, because yes, I am more concerned with the plot of the movie then anything else. And we all knew things would have to be cut to fit into an A's movie. In that light:

Hayate is vital to the plot
The Wolks are vital to the plot
Reinforce is vital to the plot
The Book of Darkness is vital to the plot
Chrono and Lindy's emotions I consider vital to the plot, given their connection
Nanoha is NOT that vital
Fate is NOT that vital
Yuuno is NOT that vital
Leti is NOT that vital

Sure, the "not vital" people still have some roles, but they are also looked at harder when something needs to be cut. The only reason that people like Yuuno and Leti didn't have more cut, is that they didn't have much to begin with. Although, as I said, I am considering ways to cut Leti out totally. Perhaps have Chrono see the book as he does in the series, instead of being briefed. As much as I hate Nanoha's early SLB being cut, it is a sacrifice I am willing to make for the plot. I'm upset, but I understand. THAT is what I'd like to see from other people.

Quote:
I'm going to see which of the two it is with this question - Are you willing to keep the NanoFate reunion scene if we take away the flashback/Nanoha running bit and 10 to 15 seconds more of the lead-up that lead to it? Better to have short lead-up and an actual and wonderful payoff than careful and smooth lead-up that goes absolutely nowhere...
Oh, it goes to Fate swooping in to rescue Nanoha, as what I wanted to do above. It's build up, but also in a heart-breaking way that is more emotional. I liked the hospital bed NanoFate scene in the series, where Fate comes in to visit Nanoha, far more than the park reunion. You could feel more complex emotions going on in that scene. It would have been something I was mentally tossing around about adding; a scene where Nanoha and Fate wake up together in hospital beds that are next to each other. Add in complex emotions, tearful reunion, and fade out with Nanoha reaching out to grasp Fate's hand to reassure her (because Fate thinks she failed).

But if you'd rather have your park scene....

Quote:
Let's look at the 44 seconds that came before it. First, a brief and throwaway bit focusing on a DAB ship out in space, and Chrono and his girlfriend talking about Nanoha and Fate's reunion. You'd leave this in, but take out the actual reunion. I have to say, if your intention is to destroy NanoFate, I'm genuinely impressed at the pure evil genius of leaving this bit in given that you've just removed the NanoFate reunion itself. Talk about heart-wrenching tease! We have 2 minutes of lead-up to the reunion, and Chrono/his girlfriend talk about the reunion, but we don't show the actual reunion.
I thought about it, but it does establish that Fate is on her way to visit Nanoha. I'd probably adjust it to have them on the way as well (to visit Lindy) but well behind Fate, so they arrive later to back up Lindy in driving the Wolks off.

Quote:
Somewhere I imagine a colorful theatrical villain, who also happens to be a Nanoha/Yuuno shipper, laughing maniacally.
You haven't read my fics, or you'd know better.

Quote:
After this Chrono/girlfriend bit (that doesn't tie in to any aspect of the plot of this movie except, ironically, the Nanoha/Fate reunion) we have a short Lindy/Alph moving scene. Because seeing Nanoha and Fate's reunion is obviously less important than watching two random guys move around mattresses while Lindy and Alph exchange a couple smiles/blushes (seriously, there's no dialogue worth mentioning here at all).
Establishes that the Harleowns are moving into the neighborhood. But you're right, I could cut this out, too. But given that the Harleowns do end up moving into the neighborhood while the Arthra is being refitted, I figure it had to happen eventually, and might as well do that at the start. I hope this explains why this scene was kept because, yes, it was plot relevant.

Quote:
I continue to be impressed with your attempt to destroy NanoFate (if that is indeed what it is). The two best NanoFate bits in the entire movie are now gone thanks to you. But teasing remains. Such pure, evil genius!
Understand that you seem to think NanoFate and NanoFate fans are destroyed by the loss of 2.5 minutes of their screentime. Before you knew the movie existed, were NanoFate and their fans "destroyed"? If you can answer yes to this, I'll concede your point. But if you can't give up 2.5 minutes, and can't see how how emotionally invested you are to be unable to let go... Though, if you care to explain how these scenes are important to the Book of Darkness plot, feel free. But I might save you the trouble and say, "Sure, fine, we'll keep these 2.5 minutes if it makes you feel happy. I think I can still do my changes with the 8.5 minutes I have left."

Quote:
And here, you're taking away some of the precious little screentime that Suzuka and Arisa have.

Has it occurred to you that this might actually hurt the plot? I'm pretty sure that with your edits, Suzuka's first scene in the movie will be her befriending Hayate. Given how minor a character Suzuka is, a lot of people aren't going to remember the Nanoha/Suzuka connection without Suzuka showing up in the movie before Suzuka and Hayate's befriending scene. The significance of Suzuka befriending Hayate may well be lost for viewers who are caught up in the action of the movie, and have temporarily forgotten just who this purple-haired girl is.
As you said, Suzuka is important, because she is the connection between Hayate and Nanoha/Fate. Sad to say, Arisa isn't important. And remember that the A's movie isn't for new viewers; it's for people who have already seen the series. Too much is cut that a new viewer would likely be confused by things anyway. The new viewers I showed the 1st movie to, were confused by a few things, like Arisa's behavior; I had to explain that it was explained better in the series.

But part of cutting this, would also be to expand Suzuka's library scene with Hayate, helping to develop their friendship to the level where Suzuka would bring her friends to the hospital. Other than a sudden, "Oh, Suzuka met this person and has known them all of 10 seconds, and is thus really buddy-buddy with them."

Quote:
I thought you might cut this down. Because even I'd admit that they are a bit more elaborate than they need to be. But I didn't think you'd remove them entirely. A magical girl movie without any magical girl transformation scene for either of the two main protagonists... wow. And Nanoha is now guaranteed to get one-upped by Madoka Magica in an area that, like it or not, is important to many magical girl genre fans.
Probably. I suppose I could deal with 30 seconds for both transformations (15 seconds a piece) to make it quick, and hopefully non-pedo. At least, I really hope you're not arguing for the pedo aspects, like up close ass and crotch shots with nipples while clothes disappear.

Quote:
It's at this point that I realize that you expect Nanoha and Fate to sacrifice a helluva lot more than you do the Wolkenritter. All those Wolkenritter fluff scenes go entirely untouched (and like it or not, many of them are cute fluff scenes), but NanoFate are expected to lose arguably its two best scenes in the entire movie.
Because those Wolkenritter scenes are important to the plot. The movie needs to show that Hayate has built a close bond with them, such that they feel compelled to break her order to try and save her life. And to be blunt: this is Hayate and the Wolks movie, more than anyone else, even Nanoha. Much as I like Nanoha more than Hayate, I recognize that the needs of Hayate outweigh my wants. That is my logic.

Quote:
I don't particularly care. But at this point, I seriously wonder "What's the real point of this all?".

Kaijo, this scene touches directly on Lindy coming to terms with the death of her husband. It's actually part of the reason why I felt you were understating the degree of focus Lindy/Chrono get in this movie.

Isn't the whole point of this slice-and-dice exercise to get more time to devote to Lindy/Chrono focus as it pertains to how The Book of Darkness took their husband/father away?

What exactly are you trying to save up these minutes for? A really big, long, elaborate gravesite scene for Chrono/Lindy?
Yes, actually. I'd rather have an actual grave site visit where there is a little talking, and more movement. I detailed a bit of this before, but I'd like to see Lindy and Chrono kneeling, incense burning, Fate and Arf standing to the side. Perhaps they say a few words. Then Lindy gestures for Fate and Arf to come forward and join then, which they do nervously. And Lindy introduces Fate to Clyde, saying, "This is our new daughter and her friend/pet, Fate and Arf. They are a part of our family now." Something like that. And Fate can say something like, "Pleased to meet you, Mr. Harleown. I am honored to join your family, and hope I can prove worth of it." Then maybe have Chrono finally open his eyes and turn, an say with a smile, "I think you already have." (Because she would have saved him from the dream eater earlier)

Quote:
There is something that I want to say here.

Plot is important. But is it more important than emotionally engaging the audience? Because many of the scenes that I found the most emotionally engaging, and probably about half of the most emotionally satisfying moments in the entire movie for me, are moments that you have slated to axe. And I'd say that most Nanoha and Fate fans would agree with me on that. And that's most Nanoha fans in general, of course.
And I'd say "vocal minority" as we always like to believe that people on our side are in the majority. Hell, I might even concede that 51% of people are in it solely for NanoFate... but I know quite a few NanoFate fans, who also want to see the other characters develop; they aren't shallow enough to prize what they like over the good of the series. So I'd say a majority of NanoFate fans would side with me!

But these are merely opinions we both carry, and we each like to believe we hold the more correct view, ya?

Quote:
I think that plot is important, but when you prioritize it this much over emotional engagement, I think there's a good chance you end up with a final product that feels very cold. Something that feels a bit heartless and soulless.

And I think that the net effect of your changes would be to make Nanoha and Fate seem rather shallow relative to Hayate and the Wolkenritter (who aren't asked to sacrifice a single second of their 'fluff' scenes together). I think this could skew perception of the two competing sides in a way that's very unflattering to Nanoha and Fate.

And when looking over what I've wrote in this post, and the emotional cost of your changes, I can't help but strongly feel "It isn't worth it".

I really do think it just isn't worth it. Not simply for a bit more Chrono/Lindy focus and plot focus.

In my view, the plot is mildly improved while the emotional engagement aspect of the film is halved (at best) or gutted, at worst.

So in the end, I disagree with you, Kaijo. And I think that my reasons for disagreeing with you are much more legitimate than how you have framed them.
Let me use your own arguments and words, and ask: Why are you being such a killjoy? Why are you trying to kill any aspect of Chrono/Fate? What about fans of Chrono and Fate? I mean, even if we do all of my cuts, Nanoha and Fate still have MANY scenes together (and would get even more with my changes). They still develop their relationship.

You know how many scenes Fate and Chrono have to develop their relationship?

Zero.

Zilch.

Nada.

None.

Hell, Fate's relationship with Signum was heavily cut in this movie, and I'd argue that is a very important relationship that could only really be developed here. So, to use Fate's words, "Stop being selfish!" You're getting plenty of candy already, and when people voice an opinion that they'd like a piece or two of candy as well, your response is, "NO! My Candy! Stop killing my joy!"

Can you not afford to share some candy? Or are you like Reinforce, who prizes the well-being of one, over the destruction she'd bring to the entire world in the process, which prompts Fate's line?

And as I have mentioned many times, you are already getting what you want anyway, so why worry at all? Chrono and Lindy are done; this was their only real moment to shine, and to have their first beginning moments of a family with Fate shown to us. From here on, they will just be assumed to be a family, with none of the close beginning bonding moments (something like the series had with Lindy buying a cell phone for Fate). In the next movie, unless the new antagonist has something to do with Lindy and Chrono (other than their role as DAB officers), I'll agree there that their role should probably be kept to a minimum and they don't need development.

So, given that you got what you wanted already, and are going to get a whole lot more while everyone else gets deprived, can you not at least show some empathy and go, "Yeah, your situation sucks, and I wish we all could have gotten something good out of this movie" ? Or do you want to be a killjoy and say, "No, you don't get what you'd like" ?

We already lost Graham and the Lieze twins, and Hayate's complex relationship with that, forever ruining that particular relationship.
We don't have, and never will, Chrono and Hayate chatting it up and connecting as friends over a shared loss (they both lost someone to the book)
We don't have Chrono and Fate.
We barely have Fate and Lindy

And you want them all those potential relationships to go to hell, because one relationship that has already gotten TONS of development, and will get TONS more, can't even give up a few minutes?
Kaijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-29, 11:56   Link #1042
Triple_R
"...Why?!", Sailor Faerie
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
For those curious, it was ep 13, almost 14 minutes in.

Now, @Demi: Since our conversation is more of a comparison, I will make a post response in the other thread later.

@Triple_R: Our conversation has more to do with the movie itself and not as much of a comparison, so I think it is still okay to continue here. But there are two things I would like acknowledgement from you, before you read more into this post:

#1. You are aware that I said those are essentially potential cuts, essentially the maximum number of cuts I would make to free up some time. Depending on time needed, not all of them would be made. Please acknowledge this before you panic too much, so we can continue to have a nominal conversation.
Sure, I acknowledge that. And I'm not panicking. I'm genuinely mind-boggled. Surely you must see how bizarre it is to leave in all the build-up to Nanoha and Fate's reunion, and even Chrono's conversation comments pertaining to it, but not the actual reunion itself... unless you do change the reunion to be as it was in the A's TV show, as I felt my previous argument to you was clear.

If your perspective is "The reunion should have been handled like it was in the A's TV show", then that calls for a major re-working of the entire first half of the movie narrative. Simply slicing and dicing 40 seconds here, and a couple minutes there, is no longer enough to be the focal point of discussion. You basically have to go right back to the drawing board for the first half of the narrative.

In which case, it would be more productive if you were to lay out a sequence of plot points, how long each would be, and what you'd include in each of them, until you reach a point where you could say "From this point onward, I stick with what the movie showed". I will admit this would be a lot of work, so I can understand it, and would not fault you over, opting not to follow up on this point.

Nonetheless, if your argument is "Let's handle the Nanoha/Fate reunion like the TV show did", then laying out new plot points like this would be helpful.


Quote:
#2. An understanding that you don't need to panic. You got what you wanted already, and you'll get more of it. Before you get really upset, realize that I have no power to alter what has already been done, nor what will happen in the 3rd movie, which will happen regardless of what you or I think. So calm down and try to understand, rather than blow a gasket.
Please understand I was just poking some fun with the "pure evil genius" stuff. I wasn't mad when I wrote that.


Quote:
Nanoha running, I could cut. In fact, good catch.
Thank you.


Quote:
The wake up part, was a concession to leave, because it shows that Nanoha is looking forward to meeting Fate that day... I'm just having the meetup happen later.
There is a point Keroko made that I agree with, after giving it more thought. Paraphrasing, that point is "Editing is about seconds, not minutes." How much can you trim a scene while still preserving it enough to satisfy the plot and/or please the fans?

Showing Nanoha waking up, freshening up, looking forward to meeting Fate that day, leaving home to run off to meet her - Yes, that's all important. But while watching this two minute or so scene, I noticed that it is slow paced. A really good editor could maintain what's good and effective about it, and still chop 40 or so seconds off of it, I think.


Quote:

Let me be clear: I don't give a damn who my axe falls on, because yes, I am more concerned with the plot of the movie then anything else.
Well, understand then that this is probably an area of lasting disagreement between us. Also understand that there's plenty of anime fans in general that care minimally about the plot. There's far, far more anime shows that are character-driven than plot-driven, and I think that reflects the taste preferences of anime fans in general. At least those living in Japan.

Ultimately, even the extended audience for the Nanoha movie are going to be thoroughly dominated by anime fans. And, like it or not, modern anime fans tend to go more for simplified plots with lots of great/wonderful character moments than a masterpiece plot that is more about story than characters.

In some ways, this is an uncomfortable place for me to be arguing from, as I typically don't think that plots get enough credit/focus in modern anime. Usually, I'm on your side of the plot/'pandering to fans' argument. Because the balance in many anime shows is heavily skewed to the 'pandering' side.

Which is why the umbrage over the relatively minimal pandering in this movie surprises me so. I can think of numerous anime shows/movies that pander far harder than this one did.


Quote:

And we all knew things would have to be cut to fit into an A's movie. In that light:

Hayate is vital to the plot
The Wolks are vital to the plot
Reinforce is vital to the plot
The Book of Darkness is vital to the plot
Chrono and Lindy's emotions I consider vital to the plot, given their connection
Nanoha is NOT that vital
Fate is NOT that vital
Yuuno is NOT that vital
Leti is NOT that vital
Arguing that Nanoha and Fate are not vital to the plot when they are the main protagonists of the plot strikes me as truly bizarre. I have to be frank there.

Imagine the following...

World's Finest: Joker's Winning Hand

It's a superhero movie. The main plot of the movie is that The Joker has recruited the Royal Flush gang into helping him wreck havoc on a national scale. Batman and Superman are forced to team up to try to stop him!

Joker is using stolen Lexcorp technology to mentally manipulate the Royal Flush gang and give them false memories that push them into bad decisions.

Now, the core characters in the story are really Ace and the other Royal Flush members (Ace being analogous to Hayate; the Royal Flush gang to the Wolkenritter). They are to be redeemed in this story from Joker's control. This is their story. They end up joining The Justice League at the end of the movie.

Jim Gordon and Barbara Gordon are also in the movie. Their wife/mother is killed in the opening scene of the movie by the mentally manipulated Royal Flush Gang.

The conflict of the story pits Batman and Superman (and, at the very end, with the help of Jim Gordon, Barbara Gordon, and the entire GCPD) against Joker and The Royal Flush Gang. You can think of Joker as being analogous to The Book of Darkness, or at least its defense program.

Without Batman and Superman's involvement, the Joker wins. Totally. The movie is obviously pitched first and foremost to Batman and Superman fans.

Now, final question: Are Batman and Superman vital to the movie's plot?

My answer - Yes, definitely. And so are Fate and Nanoha vital to this movie's plot.


Now, how important is Jim and Barbara Gordon's visit to their mother/wife's gravesite at the end of film? How much focus do you think it needs to make the plot work? And who do you think are the main draws of this movie - Batman and Superman, or Jim and Barbara Gordon? Who you think your average movie-goer most wants to see scenes of?


Quote:
Oh, it goes to Fate swooping in to rescue Nanoha, as what I wanted to do above. It's build up, but also in a heart-breaking way that is more emotional. I liked the hospital bed NanoFate scene in the series, where Fate comes in to visit Nanoha, far more than the park reunion. You could feel more complex emotions going on in that scene. It would have been something I was mentally tossing around about adding; a scene where Nanoha and Fate wake up together in hospital beds that are next to each other. Add in complex emotions, tearful reunion, and fade out with Nanoha reaching out to grasp Fate's hand to reassure her (because Fate thinks she failed).
You deserve credit here, so I will give it. This sounds like a very good scene.


Quote:
Establishes that the Harleowns are moving into the neighborhood. But you're right, I could cut this out, too. But given that the Harleowns do end up moving into the neighborhood while the Arthra is being refitted, I figure it had to happen eventually, and might as well do that at the start. I hope this explains why this scene was kept because, yes, it was plot relevant.
It's plot relevant in a way that's easily "told" though. It's not something that really needs to be "showed". It's one of those cases where "Show, don't Tell" doesn't really apply. It's fine to show it, of course, but Lindy just saying "We moved into town yesterday" is fine. We don't need to actually see the movers with the mattresses.


Quote:
Understand that you seem to think NanoFate and NanoFate fans are destroyed by the loss of 2.5 minutes of their screentime.
I was saying that if someone wanted to destroy NanoFate, you're suggested edits (left without something to make up for them) would be a good way to go about it.


Quote:
But I might save you the trouble and say, "Sure, fine, we'll keep these 2.5 minutes if it makes you feel happy. I think I can still do my changes with the 8.5 minutes I have left."
Good to know.


Quote:
As you said, Suzuka is important, because she is the connection between Hayate and Nanoha/Fate. Sad to say, Arisa isn't important. And remember that the A's movie isn't for new viewers; it's for people who have already seen the series. Too much is cut that a new viewer would likely be confused by things anyway. The new viewers I showed the 1st movie to, were confused by a few things, like Arisa's behavior; I had to explain that it was explained better in the series.

But part of cutting this, would also be to expand Suzuka's library scene with Hayate, helping to develop their friendship to the level where Suzuka would bring her friends to the hospital. Other than a sudden, "Oh, Suzuka met this person and has known them all of 10 seconds, and is thus really buddy-buddy with them."
I still think there's a risk that people forget the Nanoha/Suzuka connection if Suzuka's first scene in the movie does not re-establish it visually. I mean, hardcore fans won't forget exactly who Suzuka is, but more casual fans might.


Quote:
Probably. I suppose I could deal with 30 seconds for both transformations (15 seconds a piece) to make it quick, and hopefully non-pedo. At least, I really hope you're not arguing for the pedo aspects, like up close ass and crotch shots with nipples while clothes disappear.
30 seconds might be enough. And no, I'm not arguing for the pedo aspects.


Quote:
Yes, actually.
I figured, but I wanted to confirm, which is why I asked. For what it's worth, I agree that this is the best way to give more Chrono/Lindy focus.


Quote:
I'd rather have an actual grave site visit where there is a little talking, and more movement. I detailed a bit of this before, but I'd like to see Lindy and Chrono kneeling, incense burning, Fate and Arf standing to the side. Perhaps they say a few words. Then Lindy gestures for Fate and Arf to come forward and join then, which they do nervously. And Lindy introduces Fate to Clyde, saying, "This is our new daughter and her friend/pet, Fate and Arf. They are a part of our family now." Something like that. And Fate can say something like, "Pleased to meet you, Mr. Harleown. I am honored to join your family, and hope I can prove worth of it." Then maybe have Chrono finally open his eyes and turn, an say with a smile, "I think you already have." (Because she would have saved him from the dream eater earlier)
That sounds nice. I suspect you could do it justice in 2 to 3 minutes of content. Well, it might need 4.


Quote:
And I'd say "vocal minority" as we always like to believe that people on our side are in the majority. Hell, I might even concede that 51% of people are in it solely for NanoFate... but I know quite a few NanoFate fans, who also want to see the other characters develop; they aren't shallow enough to prize what they like over the good of the series.
People can legitimately disagree on what's "good for the series", you know.

I don't think any potential sequel to "World's Finest: Joker's Winning Hand" would benefit much from cutting heavily into Batman and Superman's screen-time. Since that could, you know, hurt the commercial and fan reception of the film.


Quote:
Let me use your own arguments and words, and ask: Why are you being such a killjoy? Why are you trying to kill any aspect of Chrono/Fate? What about fans of Chrono and Fate? I mean, even if we do all of my cuts, Nanoha and Fate still have MANY scenes together (and would get even more with my changes). They still develop their relationship.
Even on this thread, where critics abound, I don't see many people clamoring for Chrono/Fate.

But I'm going to make a confession here - Just as I think you find vague lesbianism between two nine-year old girls creepy, I worry about the potential for Chrono/Fate to be portrayed in accordance with the modern anime craze of "cute younger sister that may or may not have sexual longing for her older brother". Seriously, given anime's extreme difficulty in portraying a sibling relationship in the light of platonic, familial love, I do worry about what might come of greater Chrono/Fate focus.

There's enough brother-sister combos that are portrayed with a lot of sexual tension. I don't necessarily want another one.


Quote:
And as I have mentioned many times, you are already getting what you want anyway, so why worry at all? Chrono and Lindy are done; this was their only real moment to shine, and to have their first beginning moments of a family with Fate shown to us. From here on, they will just be assumed to be a family, with none of the close beginning bonding moments (something like the series had with Lindy buying a cell phone for Fate). In the next movie, unless the new antagonist has something to do with Lindy and Chrono (other than their role as DAB officers), I'll agree there that their role should probably be kept to a minimum and they don't need development.
I don't see any particular reason why the next movie can't focus more on Lindy/Chrono or Chrono/Fate (though again, I have reservations there).

Perhaps this is one area where we differ - I think that the continuation/development of something is just as important as the origin/beginnings of something. This is why I see legitimacy in, and arguably even need, for more NanoFate development in this movie. To show that what began is genuinely continuing.


Quote:
So, given that you got what you wanted already, and are going to get a whole lot more while everyone else gets deprived, can you not at least show some empathy and go, "Yeah, your situation sucks, and I wish we all could have gotten something good out of this movie" ?
Sure, it's unfortunate that Nanya, yourself, and some other critics of this movie, had less in it that could satisfy them. It sucks that your situation isn't better, and that there isn't more in the movie that you could get something good out of.
__________________

Last edited by Triple_R; 2013-03-29 at 12:20.
Triple_R is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-29, 20:18   Link #1043
Nanya01
Left for TFF
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Frozen Hell of the North
Age: 32
Send a message via AIM to Nanya01
Like I said, this movie suffers heavily from "love it or hate it".

How about we just end it there?

Because, Triple_R, Demi., Kaijo, this movie is really bringing out the worst in myself and you three.

It's well past the point where we start attacking each other (Demi. calling me a troll for example for expressing a consistent opinion on the only board that will allow me to do so about a movie I really dislike, or Kris saying that I was the only one who didn't think the movie was amazing due to the graphics, though that's not an attack, just pointing it out).

So, let's just cut it here.

You either love it.

Or you hate it.

That... Pretty much sums up all the arguments. Since we seem to be unable to get any middle ground with what to cut out (as any cuts to ANY NanoFate time seem to be "highly unfair"), we should just drop it.

In fact, challenge time for Demi., Triple_R and Kaijo...

How would you change the movie, what scenes would you edit out, what would you add in...

To make the movie more appealing to a broader audience, not just the Fate and NanoFate fans.
__________________

My fics Due to certain things, I am not here, find me over on TFF.
Nanya01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-29, 20:25   Link #1044
Dr. Casey
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tennessee
Age: 27
Ah, could you post that in the thread Kenobi made, Nanya? It's probably too close to what he asked us to stop discussing in here, and I don't want him getting on to us.
Dr. Casey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-29, 20:32   Link #1045
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 27
Asking how they'd change scenes in the movie isn't necessarily a comparison to the original season, so it's fine here.
__________________
Rising Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-30, 05:45   Link #1046
Triple_R
"...Why?!", Sailor Faerie
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post

In fact, challenge time for Demi., Triple_R and Kaijo...

How would you change the movie, what scenes would you edit out, what would you add in...
That's much of what we've been discussing for awhile now.

I don't disagree with the idea of more screen-time for Lindy/Chrono. I do see the potential benefit of getting more screen-time for them. However, there's certain prices I wouldn't be willing to pay to achieve that.

When people talk about removing scenes to add different hypothetical scenes, people are essentially doing a cost-benefit analysis in their mind. People could agree on "the benefit", but disagree on "the cost", leading to a disagreement on whether or not the changes would be worth it. There is an inescapable element of subjectivity here. I think this is primarily what is going on here.

Since I more or less agree with Kaijo's assessment of "the benefit" of more Lindy/Chrono focus, but disagree with Kaijo's assessment of "the cost" of some of his suggested edits, I'm looking for different ways to gain that "benefit" while paying a lesser "cost" to get there. In other words, I've suggested different cuts.


To be more direct and specific about it, I think we can shave off about 3 to 4 minutes worth of content without having to significantly affect NanoFate or Fate. And with those added 3 to 4 minutes, there is your extended Chrono/Lindy gravesite scene. There is your closure for them.

Beyond that, I'm not sure how I would edit/re-cut the movie. I do see how the initial action scene could be improved, and on the whole, I do prefer how Nanoha and Fate's reunion went in the TV show to how it went in the movie. However, that would require major editing work to the first half of the movie, and I'm not sure if I'm willing to take the time to fully thought experiment that. I mean, Kaijo is right about how we're just talking about hypotheticals here. Love it or hate it, the movie is done, and it is what it is.


However, it really is a shame that you didn't enjoy the movie more, Nanya. It sucks that there wasn't more in it that you could take something positive out of it.

Still, IIRC, a lot of your issues are with the action scenes side of things.

When it comes to modern action scenes in anime, I think there's a sliding scale of WhizBang! sheer technical merit vs. Theatrical Combat Charm where it's all about the characters. This is brute force/power/speed/chaotic feel vs. the action slows down to let a character shine with a showing of grit, determination, resolve, and/or finesse.

Nanoha A's the TV show leaned towards Theatrical Combat Charm, while this movie leans towards WhizBang! This is a largely subjective thing, as some people totally love the Whizbang! approach to action scenes and may find TCC slow and relatively boring. On the flip side, some people love what TCC does for characters and may find the brute force/power/speed/chaotic feel of WhizBang! to be kind of soulless and "style over substance" after awhile.

I think there's a happy medium on this sliding scale, and this movie is just inside of it, but it does lean towards WhizBang. I get the impression that you greatly prefer the TCC approach, so naturally the action scenes are dissatisfying to you. Personally, I'd also prefer a bit more TCC in the movie, so I'd probably edit the action scenes some to reflect that, which would likely make them more pleasing to you.

Yes, I would have liked to have seen more "Divine Busters!" and "Starlite Breakters!" and Nanoha shouting like Leonidas from 300. So I probably would have put that in the film.


Edit: To make it more clear what I mean by WhizBang! vs. Theatrical Combat Charm, let me show you an example of each...

This is WhizBang!

Spoiler for Kara no Kyoukai action scene:


Notice the sheer speed, intensity, power, and sense of brute force in this scene. The choreography is fairly complex with Shiki flying all over the place and twisting about a whole lot. However, the action scene never slows down much, and there's not a lot this scene can tell you about the characters. But then, given that Shiki is basically fighting zombies here, this is an action scene that's best off being the WhizBang! way that it is. They're just mindless zombies, after all. And many would consider this a great action scene.


This is Theatrical Combat Charm.

Spoiler for Superman vs. Darkseid:


Now, yes, this scene obviously has a lot of brute force and power in it. However, the choreography is very simple, and very easy to follow. It's a few punches (including one epic one), the villain slowly crashing through buildings, and a double axe-handle for the finish. For some, this is too slow and simple to count as a great action scene. But for others, the epicness of it is what makes it a great action scene. And Superman's biggest fans absolutely love it to death. Because, as is consistently the case for TCC, this is a "Character Shines" moment as much as it is an action scene one.
__________________

Last edited by Triple_R; 2013-03-30 at 06:22.
Triple_R is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-31, 18:12   Link #1047
Kuze
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
As far as I feel about the movie, there should be a extra 4koma or short on Lt. Colonel Hayate's point of view after watching the movie asking herself, "why? Why did they do that to my children?! they allowed Fate's mother to be not be as monstrous dammit!"

Cue Wolkenritter being redeployed to fringe systems that didn't have access to the movie due to concerned TSAB citizens from core worlds sending letters to Public Relations asking them to not let the Wolkenritter destroy their planet like psychopaths.
Kuze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-31, 18:15   Link #1048
Demi.
Ass connoisseur
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Florida
Age: 27
Not sure if serious but, unlike Precia, the Wolkenritter never were monstrous.
__________________
Demi. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-31, 18:37   Link #1049
Kuze
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Not sure if serious but, unlike Precia, the Wolkenritter never were monstrous.
That's missing the point - the allowed Precia to look better.

The Wolkenritter in movie 2nd look a whole lot worse when their memories are a lot more intact and yet they don't stop and certainly don't respond to diplomacy. They're not monstrous but they're certainly not examples of sound judgement.
Kuze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-31, 18:49   Link #1050
Demi.
Ass connoisseur
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Florida
Age: 27
Well, Precia was still a raving lunatic, and only during her final moments did she realize how badly she messed everything up.

Wolkenritter only cared about Hayate. But I don't recall them ever knowing that once the book is completed it will very likely kill their master (why would they complete it then?) -- But they never did kill anyone, in A's at least.

Point being, I don't think they were anywhere near the level of villainous as Precia was. The Wolkenritter were antagonists, while Precia was a Villain and Fate the antagonist.
__________________
Demi. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-31, 19:05   Link #1051
Kuze
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Except that Precia is dead, and it's a public fact that the Wolkenritter are working as active duty members of the TSAB.

People who were going to go full speed ahead with the plan that ended up killing off all of their prior masters /and/ knew about NW. That casts them in considerably worse light than they actually were in.

I am not saying that Precia was redeemed or a saint in the movie 1st, but she was given a far better shake at things than how it actually went.
Kuze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-31, 19:21   Link #1052
Archon_Wing
Throw it on the ground
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: The Mists
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to Archon_Wing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuze View Post
As far as I feel about the movie, there should be a extra 4koma or short on Lt. Colonel Hayate's point of view after watching the movie asking herself, "why? Why did they do that to my children?! they allowed Fate's mother to be not be as monstrous dammit!"

Cue Wolkenritter being redeployed to fringe systems that didn't have access to the movie due to concerned TSAB citizens from core worlds sending letters to Public Relations asking them to not let the Wolkenritter destroy their planet like psychopaths.
That actually sounds very cool. After all, we can assume the Wokies must have committed numerous atrocities under their former masters as well as their questionable deeds here as well.
__________________
You just try again... through the darkness.You just go away... the future is waiting for us!
Avatar and Sig courtesy of TheEroKing
Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480 (Stormbluff Isle)
MyAnimeList || Reviews
Archon_Wing is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-31, 22:29   Link #1053
Sunder the Gold
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Hey, so I'm watching the movie on Youtube. No subtitles, but would I honestly need them?

So, Yuuno casts an all-new spell: Caging Circle!

...I'm not sure what to think. It seems to incidentally wipe out a number of the Beast's tentacles just in getting set up, but it's not clear WHY. Is getting hit by this thing like getting hit with a Divine Buster? Given how the screen subtly shakes with each obliteration, there's clearly some force behind the ring's closure. But if so, why couldn't Yuuno cast a Divine Buster?

At least with Chain Bind, it made sense that the chains could cut if pulled hard enough. That sort of physical damage also made it clear why Yuuno would normally not use Chain Bind in that fashion against opponents like Fate and Arf.

More, Caging Circle doesn't seem to do all that much caging, except in serving as an anchor for Arf's Chain Bind. Which is kind of cool in itself, as it hints at the possibility of cooperative magic, where techniques are composed of multiple spells cast in concert by teams.

It (and the dual-forced teleport) also alludes to the fact that Yuuno taught Arf new tricks, and that they seem to have learned how to work together as a team. So, relationship development! Awesome. (The team-teleport also seems to surprise the Arthra's bridge-crew with how fast it works, and Shamal didn't help that spell at all.)

I can't say that Caging Circle actually DID anything on its own, though. The Beast stays put inside the circle even after the chain binds break, without even trying to test the circle's ring. It's not clear if the Beast is ignoring the ring as insignificant or deciding that it's too much trouble to challenge. It just moves forward a couple of steps when breaking out of the chains, stops short of the ring, and resorts to long-range attacks.

But I noticed that EVERYONE's attacks avoid striking the cage's ring. Vita hammers down through it. Fate's first slash sails over it. Signum shoots under it.

Fate's second slash --which comes from outside the Caging Circle-- is what finally breaks the spell. Conspicuously, THIS is when the Beast finally moves out of that spot, if only to float upwards now that it's lost its legs.

So maybe the Caging Circle was really powerful in the specific task of "keep the target from leaving the circle" while otherwise powerless to prevent the target from moving in any other way?


Oh, and Zafira displays his beam-firing punches from the video game; Raging Wolf Fang. It could even be considered a response to a long-range attack against him by the Beast.


I have to say, I like how Nanoha's initial role is to provide covering fire for Vita so that the Hammer Knight can get into position unmolested. Another nice bit of teamwork; more so than "everyone just hits the monster as hard as they can".

Nanoha gets to blast the thing with Starlight Breaker anyway, so why not give her something different and personally appropriate to do before that? Especially when, if she had the time to cast Force Burst / Excellion Buster, she could have just used an early Starlight Breaker.
Sunder the Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-31, 22:58   Link #1054
Archon_Wing
Throw it on the ground
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: The Mists
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to Archon_Wing
BTW, if I were to edit the movie, I would go with what I was imaging how it should be done before I saw the actual movie.

I'd start the Nanoha vs Vita fight asap after introductions are made. We just need to briefly introduce Hayate, have that scene, have Nanoha introduce herself and what happened previously. Honestly, Vita should be beating the crap out of Nanoha while the opening credits are still fresh. This will involve the audience more.

Yes, cut out everything before that and restore Fate intervening with Yuno and Arf. They fight for a bit but the Book is invoked, draining them though Nanoha manages to get her SLB off anyways.

This completely sacrifices Chrono, but oh well. You can even have Nanoha and Fate at the sunrise when they recover, thanks to the extra time we gain and then take you can use Fate's body language to indicate the degree of closeness between the two. Fate is distraught, but Nanoha is there for her... wait wtf, didn't A's have that anyways? >.>

At this point, we can deal with Fate moving in and having a talk with Lindy.

The moment we cut out the Chrono/Grahmn subplot, we can just forget about worldbuilding and just go balls to the wall on these things. The movie made a clear choice to go in that direction, so, no point in trying to backtrack.

This quickly establishes all necessary information for a viewer to realize what is going on without prior watching.
__________________
You just try again... through the darkness.You just go away... the future is waiting for us!
Avatar and Sig courtesy of TheEroKing
Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480 (Stormbluff Isle)
MyAnimeList || Reviews

Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-03-31 at 23:09.
Archon_Wing is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-01, 03:28   Link #1055
Hoki
Professor Lech
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Somewhere in Asia
Ah finally, I get to make an account here.

Greetings fellow Nanoha fans, I'm Hoki. I've been around for some time but this is my first post here.

Well then, to the current topic.

This movie is better compared to the first (most people would agree with me I hope) and also has some things they improved in the series; like giving an actual name to the corrupted defense program. The fight scenes were awesome... really really awesome!!! though they cut the part where Reinforce bombs Nanoha and Fate with SLB, it did make Nanoha's Excelion Buster charge more awesome!

I'm just disappointed that they removed Graham's involvement in the story, since his motivations could be fitted seamlessly with the corrupted defense program going berserk. Fate's rescue of Nanoha from Vita, which is one of the things that made Nanoha A's quite a show was also altered, and that is also a disappointing alteration. Finally, they gave a small chance for Lindy to show she can kick ass, only to abort that... that seriously sucked, since I had wanted to see Lindy vs Wolkenritter. I believe it would've been an awesome action scene.

Overall, this movie is very good, and it was worth the wait.
Hoki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-01, 05:43   Link #1056
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Hey, so I'm watching the movie on Youtube. No subtitles, but would I honestly need them?

So, Yuuno casts an all-new spell: Caging Circle!

...I'm not sure what to think. It seems to incidentally wipe out a number of the Beast's tentacles just in getting set up, but it's not clear WHY. Is getting hit by this thing like getting hit with a Divine Buster? Given how the screen subtly shakes with each obliteration, there's clearly some force behind the ring's closure. But if so, why couldn't Yuuno cast a Divine Buster?
It's a bind spell. A powerful one, but still a bind spell. Given how the various different types of spells have all shown people having shown talent for them ranging from genius level to "why bother?" the structure of a bind spell is completely different from a shooting spell like Divine Buster.

Kind of like how someone good at running isn't automatically good at other sports.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
So maybe the Caging Circle was really powerful in the specific task of "keep the target from leaving the circle" while otherwise powerless to prevent the target from moving in any other way?
That would fit with its name, yes. A cage does not prevent its occupant from moving, it just prevents it from leaving it.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-01, 06:14   Link #1057
Hoki
Professor Lech
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Somewhere in Asia
Wouldn't that make Yuuno more badass? I mean he can actually keep an eldritch abomination caged... A freaking world destroying creature caged!!!.

Surely he gets some badass points for that.
Hoki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-01, 06:16   Link #1058
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 27
... Yes. Yes, it would.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-01, 07:52   Link #1059
Nanya01
Left for TFF
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Frozen Hell of the North
Age: 32
Send a message via AIM to Nanya01
Again, by that point, who freaking cares? The movie was such a train wreck that any awesome points that the final fights MAY have had were so minor that it didn't matter.
__________________

My fics Due to certain things, I am not here, find me over on TFF.
Nanya01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-01, 08:02   Link #1060
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Again, by that point, who freaking cares?
... I do? While the movie has its flaws, I am still of the opinion the good outweighs the bad.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 15:52.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.