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Old 2013-03-29, 02:00   Link #1
CrowKenobi
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Arrow Nanoha A's Movie and TV Comparison Thread

As the title of this thread suggests, the purpose here is to allow discussion which compares the content between the Nanoha A's movie and the TV series of the same name which it was adapted from.

As already shown in the Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's Discussion Thread (spoilers) thread, such discussion can become heated at times, but please try to keep a cool head and calmly discuss the differences (both good and bad) between the two formats. If things become too heated, warnings and/or infractions will be issued and posts will be deleted.

Have fun!
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Old 2013-03-29, 07:43   Link #2
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I think the thing about this movie is that it's very much a Love It or Hate It kind of movie.

yes, this seems to be the only corner of the internet that has Nanoha fans that hate it, but, as Keroko has pointed out in the movie thread...

Fans who didn't like it won't speak up because they'll get flamed, trolled and outright banned if they do. This is the only forum that allows for people to be critical of Fate without being banned for it.

The only things that are universally liked by everyone is the visuals, the fight scene against the core of the book of darkness, Reinforce showing up earlier and her device NachtWal. The only thing that we all agree on that was done badly was the first action sequence, though we disagree on the why to that.

Other than that, you pretty much either loved the movie or hated it.

If you loved the movie, as Demi., Triple_R and others have pointed out, time and time again, the friendship bonding between Nanoha and Fate was nice, Fate having more screen time was also nice and the visuals were outstanding.

However, if you didn't like the movie, you found that Yuuno basically being written out, Chrono and Lindy not getting any closure, the bland action sequences, the bland music, the Wolkenritter having to grab both the Conflict AND Idiot Balls to make the plot work to be extremely horrible, as I have commented on for nearly 40 pages in the movie thread.

The movie could have been a lot better than it was, the problem is, we're now disagreeing on what can be done to fix the movie's problems. Some of you (those who love the movie) don't see where the problems are and some of us (those who hated the movie) probably see too many problems that may or may not be there.

The problem with resolving this comes down to bias, as some will use their bias too strongly to say that you can't change certain things because it would make the movie bad for them while others say that the movie was already bad for them, why not change it to make it better for more people over-all?
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Last edited by Nanya01; 2013-03-29 at 08:14.
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Old 2013-03-29, 07:54   Link #3
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...And 52 pages and a new thread later, no progress was made.
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Old 2013-03-29, 08:00   Link #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
...And 52 pages and a new thread later, no progress was made.
Actually, i'd like to think that we HAVE been making some progress.

Been VERY slow, but there's been some.

Hell, I've been the most vocal (as you pointed out) in how much I disliked the movie, and I still showed that there were things I liked about it and I pointed out that, despite the NanoFate fluff I didn't like, I would have kept some of it in the movie.

You, on the other hand, have been willing to admit that some of that NanoFate stuff could have and probably should have been trimmed down and removed.

I think it's slow, but we're making some progress.

And by slow, it feels like we're trying to pull teeth that don't want to come out.
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Old 2013-03-29, 08:49   Link #5
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I don't see much progress, Nanya, when people favoring your position on the movie (or something close to it) refuses to acknowledge your own biases, and act like only the Fate and NanoFate fans (or "fanatics", as Kaijo tried to paint us) are biased.

We can talk about progress when people who want substantially less Fate and/or NanoFate moments in the movie start admitting to their own biases.
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Old 2013-03-29, 09:07   Link #6
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
...And 52 pages and a new thread later, no progress was made.
It's a thread discussing a movie we have no chance of influencing. "progress" was an impossible benchmark from the start.
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Old 2013-03-29, 09:33   Link #7
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It's amazing how this has spun off into its own thread now

And hey, better be careful throwing that "everyone agrees on", because I didn't find the first fight scene bad at all. Yeah, it was short and I would've loved it to be longer, but other then that it had nothing wrong with it. It was still great.

I don't know what you mean by bland music, because the Spanish guitar is pretty awesome. When my friend went through it quickly to check times, he could still hear it - even with the sound muted. It kind of sticks in your head pretty well
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Old 2013-03-29, 10:54   Link #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
But fluff isn't glory hogging.
Nanoha had that whole Reinforce battle virtually to her self and all of the longer battles. Fate did get shafted as far as battles go, whether you want to believe it or not.
Fate lost one battle, her main one with Signum. Although the ones she had were chopped a bit. But if it were me, I'd chop NanoFate fluff scenes to get her fight and relationship with Signum better developed. If you think Fate had the right amount of time total, would you feel that chopping some NanoFate to develop the Fate/Signum relationship be something worthy of doing? Because that friend/rival relationship is really interesting to me.

But let's be clear: out of all the characters, Fate lost the least in the transition to the movie.

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I guess my stance is Fate should have close to the same time as Nanoha, maybe a little less...But you think she should have a lot less? It's the only thing I'm able to pick up on from this circular debate.
Because it is not a matter of screentime to me. Hell, if they managed to cover Chrono and Lindy and resolve their angst towards the book, and also Fate's relationship with her brother and mother, I wouldn't care if they had NanoFate scenes as well. But if we need to cut things, then I start looking at what is not vital.

Let me be clear about this as well: I do like the NanoFate dynamic. I like their friendship. I like Yuuno, and I like his relationship with Nanoha (and would like to see more of his relationship with Fate as well). There are a lot of characters I like. But I am willing to take the axe to any of them, to give what is *needed*. Needs outweigh wants to me, plain and simple.

And going into the future, Fate and NanoFate will continue to get scenes and development. This was about the only time for Lindy, Chrono, Hayate, and the Wolks. I'm pretty much betting that none of them will receive *any* real development in the future. They are all side characters who won't get jack shit from here on.

Quote:
Actually it's Chrono I have a hard time picturing acting all emotional. He also feels stone cold to me. He lightens up in StrikerS, but until then...I just can't see it.
And we see why. I mean, I think you'd argue that Fate's cold demeanor in the first movie and series made sense. You know why. Thus we also know why Chrono is "stone cold"; he's the Fate of A's. Yet, Fate is still more important? We go for the girl who has emotional issues from childhood that turned her into someone who carefully guarded her emotions... but screw the guy who turned out similarly? True, the situations aren't exactly similar, but it obviously affected Chrono enough to have him bury his feelings and emotions, and you don't want him to ever deal with that?

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This is just one of those things that I'd have to see to believe. I loved how it was in the movie, if your version would have an equal impact, I couldn't say. I mean putting it down on paper is one thing, but animating it is another. There are a whole lot of issues you could come across.
So I suppose writing it out what matter much to you. You probably aren't reading any of my Fate fics, either, since the written form doesn't do anything for you? Obviously, I can't animate it, so you've set this up as something that can never be resolved for you. You aren't open to the idea, because it would have to be animated, but because it never can, you can't be open to it. Talk about circular.

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I just feel that Fate really needed that dream scene with Precia. It completed her character so that she actually could move on.
And yet, she doesn't. If she had, Jail wouldn't have been able to hit hard at her. And in the next movie, Fate will have another issue with Precia. And the one beyond that, and the one beyond that... because I guess Tsuzuki can't think of any other way to give her issues, other than her mother. Is that what you want?

Quote:
It's probably my favorite scene of any season, and it is the scene where Fate had the most impact on me. I'm obviously not going to willingly give it up easily. And to me, Nanoha is the largest part of Fate's life in A's. She almost feels completely dependent on her. Similarly to how she was with Precia in the first season.
So, Fate has exchanged one dependency for another? Isn't that not healthy? I think, then, the greatest development for Fate's character, would be her ability to exist on her own, not dependent upon anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
It's sort of true, a good editor could probably get in that Lindy/Chrono scene you all so dream of having without even touching an inch of NanoFate screen time. But the preconceived notion that NanoFate is mere "pointless fluff" instantly leads to those scenes being targeted...Despite them being far from an over-abundance in the first place.
I wouldn't say "pointless fluff" although some might. As I said above, I do think it has some value... but if everything has value to someone, then nothing can be cut and we end up with a 6 hour movie. Obviously, some things have to be cut, then. And the only objective way of doing that, is looking at what is most central to the plot.

We get that it is good for Fate and the NanoFate relationship. We really do. I don't know how many times I have to say this for it to get through to you. But you're being subjective about it, which is understandable, while we are trying to be objective.

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...And say what you will, but they're important to fully delve into the NanoFate dynamic. If I'm not left thinking of what great friends they are or how dependent they are on each other by the end, then something went terribly wrong.
Essentially, unless the movie pleases you 100%, then it is a terribad movie? But even with those cuts, I still think you'd find their relationship to be a close one.

And realize that none of the people you are arguing with, think it is a "bad" movie. Well, maybe Nanya, heh. I'm one of the lower ones, and I think it is just average (even though a 5 should be average, thus I went with 6). So you're upset with people who still rated it highly, and thus still found good within in.
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Old 2013-03-29, 11:56   Link #9
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Fate wasn't important to the Book of Darkness Incident. She honestly had as much of a role to play as Yuuno; for the both of them, their only stake in the conflict was that it had hurt Nanoha and threatened her planet.

Chrono and Lindy were more important for the Book incident, since they had suffered a very personal loss to it already, and they are also official members of the organization whose very job is to neutralize such things.

Chrono and Lindy should have gotten more screentime and development than any other hero but Nanoha, whose planet is at stake and whose name is on the title. And who didn't get devloped in the previous movie.
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Old 2013-03-29, 19:25   Link #10
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Fate lost one battle, her main one with Signum. Although the ones she had were chopped a bit. But if it were me, I'd chop NanoFate fluff scenes to get her fight and relationship with Signum better developed. If you think Fate had the right amount of time total, would you feel that chopping some NanoFate to develop the Fate/Signum relationship be something worthy of doing? Because that friend/rival relationship is really interesting to me.
I would have liked to see her fight a bit more. All of those upgrades and never really put to use. Nevertheless, I do feel the movie had a pretty good blend of elements. To me it felt like Nanoha fought all of the main battles, Fate was trying to live a normal life and deal with the ghost of her mother, while Hayate was in between the conflict of it all. I'd gladly give the NanoFate reunion scene up for the BDH moment, though. I'm not as hard to please as you think, but unlike most of you here, I enjoyed the movie a lot as it was. Some changes may make it better, but I don't feel it's so crucial as some make it out to be.

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But let's be clear: out of all the characters, Fate lost the least in the transition to the movie.
Say hello to Reinforce who GAINED from the transition. Also, I don't think Nanoha or Hayate lost any more than Fate, either. Or Vita. So that makes a handful of characters who were treated the best.


Quote:
Because it is not a matter of screentime to me. Hell, if they managed to cover Chrono and Lindy and resolve their angst towards the book, and also Fate's relationship with her brother and mother, I wouldn't care if they had NanoFate scenes as well. But if we need to cut things, then I start looking at what is not vital.
Did they have Chrono/Amy resolving their angst about the book in the series? If not, I do understand that you think they're relevant to the plot, but it's asking a lot for a series to develop that aspect on two characters who barely appear in the first place, especially if it didn't even happen in the series. That aside, did Fate even have anything going on with Chrono in the series? I remember they had one or two brief chats...But if these things were not really present in the series, why are they so important in the movie?

Quote:
But I am willing to take the axe to any of them, to give what is *needed*. Needs outweigh wants to me, plain and simple.
I really do think you put too much stock in "need." A lot of the most successful anime are without plot. Instead, they opt to sell based on character dynamics alone. That's not to say a series like Nanoha should be plotless, but often times character interaction is more important than the plot. As long as the plot doesn't completely fall flat on its face, then it's good enough.

Quote:
And going into the future, Fate and NanoFate will continue to get scenes and development. This was about the only time for Lindy, Chrono, Hayate, and the Wolks. I'm pretty much betting that none of them will receive *any* real development in the future. They are all side characters who won't get jack shit from here on.
I hope they do, but while future installments have proved this, nothing is a guarantee. I doubt they're going to scrap the Wolks or Hayate in the Reflection movie, at least. I doubt Fate's going to leave home if the movie takes place only a fw years later, so Chrono and Lindy could very well stick around as well. We'll have to wait and see. If you must blame anything, blame the ten year time gap between A's and StrikerS. And the masses of new characters that followed. I hope Reflection does not follow the same trend.

Quote:
And we see why. I mean, I think you'd argue that Fate's cold demeanor in the first movie and series made sense. You know why. Thus we also know why Chrono is "stone cold"; he's the Fate of A's. Yet, Fate is still more important? We go for the girl who has emotional issues from childhood that turned her into someone who carefully guarded her emotions... but screw the guy who turned out similarly? True, the situations aren't exactly similar, but it obviously affected Chrono enough to have him bury his feelings and emotions, and you don't want him to ever deal with that?
Point taken. Yet as far as him and Fate go, I feel it is too early for them to be all brotherly and sisterly to each other. So maybe he should resolve his issues elsewhere first.


Quote:
So I suppose writing it out what matter much to you. You probably aren't reading any of my Fate fics, either, since the written form doesn't do anything for you? Obviously, I can't animate it, so you've set this up as something that can never be resolved for you. You aren't open to the idea, because it would have to be animated, but because it never can, you can't be open to it. Talk about circular.
I'm no director, or script writer. What I see on paper (or this subforum) doesn't make me instantly think of what a good idea it may be. Plenty of good ideas have fallen flat when put to the test. What I do know is that the scene being replaced is my favorite scene of all time. I'd sacrifice anything, before it. Maybe your idea could work out, but I can't say it would be of equal significance. To me, at least.


Quote:
And yet, she doesn't. If she had, Jail wouldn't have been able to hit hard at her. And in the next movie, Fate will have another issue with Precia. And the one beyond that, and the one beyond that... because I guess Tsuzuki can't think of any other way to give her issues, other than her mother. Is that what you want?
I'll quote Dr.Casey on this, since I feel he put it rather eloquently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Casey
Right, and this is actually one of the reasons I enjoyed StrikerS so much - the characterization felt more nuanced, without the occasional rigid, artificial character moments that sprinkled the first two series. It's always been a pet peeve of mine when healing from emotional damage in anime is completely linear, where once a character has a moment of coming to peace with their past and their situation, that's it - the issue can never be allowed to hurt them again to any degree, ever. (On the same note, it's also irritating sometimes whenever anime fans complain about character development being undermined by characters having even brief moments of regression, as though healing and maturing is a 100% straight line.)

Of course, there might be a detail or two of these scenes that I'm forgetting. If Fate comes across as being less at peace with her past and her relationship with her mother in StrikerS than she was in A's, that would be kind of a screwy regression. Emotional trauma should generally be more healed up when you're a decade removed from said trauma rather than just six months. I don't remember the message of the dream lotus scene in A's, though, as being "Fate has completely moved on and will never feel sadness over her past again." It was a difficult decision that required a lot of strength on her part and contributed to the healing process, but I don't remember any implications that her issues were completely put to rest. And considering how deeply traumatic Fate's childhood was, it would feel very unrealistic and artificial to me for there to be no long-lasting effects. I think StrikerS struck a nice balance between conveying the damage caused by her middle childhood, and presenting her as a stronger, experienced, more mature woman.
tl;dr No one fully gets over traumatic issues, but StrikerS showed that she is not the same person we saw in A's, and especially the first season. She's matured, confident, and not afraid of intimate (I'm not saying of the sexual kind) relations.


Quote:
So, Fate has exchanged one dependency for another? Isn't that not healthy? I think, then, the greatest development for Fate's character, would be her ability to exist on her own, not dependent upon anyone.
No, it's not healthy, but I love it about her. The lengths shes willing to go to please that special someone is part of what I find so endearing about her. Of course, unlike Precia, Nanoha doesn't expect anything from her. So instead, Nanoha aids in the emotional support she so desperately needed. I posted this on Triple_R's wall, but I'll post it here to give a better example to how I see their relationship.

_________
Nanoha has always initiated handholding before with Fate feeling reassured. At the beginning of the movie, Fate held out her hand and waited for Nanoha to take it- probably thinking she’d just shake or something like that- but Nanoha grabs on with both hands and gets all intimate because that's Nanoha for you. Fate was always afraid of initiating intimate affection. That’s why Nanoha looks so surprised when Fate does finally grab her hand.

While Fate was trapped in that dream world and she realized there Nanoha and her family need her- she was told by her big sister even. It was something she was unsure of before- “I was useless in the end”- but trapped with this fake family, she realizes no, my real one needs me more, I need to get out of here and help Nanoha. And she does! She saves Nanoha, just like she promised she would in the last movie- “next time, I’ll save you”. And she’s finally able to move on from that place where she feels useless and trapped with the ghost of her mother. She has confidence in herself, she can move forward, and now she’s comfortable taking Nanoha’s hand, in comforting Nanoha, instead of always waiting for Nanoha to take her hand, instead of feeling unworthy of her.



The transition of events in moving form~



Quote:
We get that it is good for Fate and the NanoFate relationship. We really do. I don't know how many times I have to say this for it to get through to you. But you're being subjective about it, which is understandable, while we are trying to be objective.
Well, you're being subjective too, albeit in a different way. You think making the plot stronger will instantly make the movie a better watch the the majority of viewers. While I strongly disagree, stating that it has a perfect blend between action, plot, and character exposition. As perfect as any Nanoha title will ever get, anyways.


Quote:
Essentially, unless the movie pleases you 100%, then it is a terribad movie? But even with those cuts, I still think you'd find their relationship to be a close one.
No? But if we're simply making cuts that I feel will lessen my enjoyment of the movie, why should I accept them? And no, I'm not just in it for NanoFate but I don't feel there is enough of it in a first place to make that your target.

Quote:
And realize that none of the people you are arguing with, think it is a "bad" movie. Well, maybe Nanya, heh. I'm one of the lower ones, and I think it is just average (even though a 5 should be average, thus I went with 6). So you're upset with people who still rated it highly, and thus still found good within in.
It's not really about quality. I just have increasingly different opinions from the majority of people on this subforum. We could both think the movie was great, yet it would be for different reasons. Craxuan is an example of that...Since all of the negatives he gave the film were aspects of the movie I enjoyed. Yet he too enjoyed the movie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold
Fate wasn't important to the Book of Darkness Incident. She honestly had as much of a role to play as Yuuno; for the both of them, their only stake in the conflict was that it had hurt Nanoha and threatened her planet.
Main character ---> Planet threatened ---> Profit?
Really though, Fate had a ton of screen time in the series, it's not like they're going to cut her to side character status simply because she's not directly linked to the incident. And believe it or not, Fate still had the most emotional baggage in the entire cast, even after the first season. That's how much worse her circumstances were compared to everyone else. And it's what we'll never agree on since for me: Character exposition > Plot.
I feel like I'm talking into a black hole here.
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:02   Link #11
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A lot of the most successful anime are without plot. Instead, they opt to sell based on character dynamics alone. That's not to say a series like Nanoha should be plotless, but often times character interaction is more important than the plot. As long as the plot doesn't completely fall flat on its face, then it's good enough.
Just because someone else can get away with doing things poorly is no excuse for me or you to do the same.
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:08   Link #12
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Just because someone else can get away with doing things poorly is no excuse for me or you to do the same.
So prioritizing characters over plot is automatically "doing things poorly"? Plot-driven is inherently superior to character-driven?

This is a lot more debatable than some people seem to think it is.
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:10   Link #13
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So prioritizing characters over plot is automatically "doing things poorly"? Plot-driven is inherently superior to character-driven?

This is a lot more debatable than some people seem to think it is.
The best movies know how to drive enough plot and characterization without sacrificing either of them.
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:12   Link #14
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The best movies know how to drive enough plot and characterization without sacrificing either of them.
Yes, and I would say that the Nanoha A's Movie is a good example of this.

From my perspective, some people are too willing to sacrifice very important characterization for marginal plot improvement.
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:16   Link #15
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Yes, and I would say that the Nanoha A's Movie is a good example of this.
And I'll have to disagree with you completely because of how many characters ended up with the short end of the stick compared to how they were treated in A's comparatively.

Granted, we never had Chrono or Lindy get to address their past completely.
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:22   Link #16
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It really depends. Surely a movie that fails to do shit in one area will be shit, but diffrent stories put different emphasis. World building, builds the story tall, in that the world is larger, the scope is more epic, and opens up new avenues of discovery. Character building, builds the story horizontally, in which various aspects are given depth and interest.

For example, The Place Promised in Our Early Days does very little to build upwards. We don't really learn much about the setting even if it's interesting nor do we really gain any progress on the grand scheme of things; it's just a backdrop so we can explore the characters' emotions in that particular context which really defines the movie. It's a highly directed slice of the reality we are being exposed to, and that is where all the weight comes from.

On the other end, we have the Ghost in the Shell anime. While the characters are really cool, they're really not that deep and it's more of a focus towards societal issues that was masterfully imagined into the futuristic society that was presented. You're not really left thinking about the characters' emotions and thoughts that much, but how such a society behaves and interacts on a large scale, with key incidents in the world being the main focus of the plot.

The Nanoha movie picked a very narrow scope of horizontal development at the expense of nearly all vertical development by foregoing most of the intrigue around the Book of Darkness and past incidents, especially around the Haralown family. It certainly gives a very interesting focus on the few that it did focus on, though ultimately Nanoha is a character driven franchise-- indeed, many of the complaints lodged are that certain characters were just left out in the dark.
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:22   Link #17
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And I'll have to disagree with you completely because of how many characters ended up with the short end of the stick compared to how they were treated in A's comparatively.
That's inevitable. You're talking about 13 anime episodes vs. a 2 and a half hour movie. 2 and a half hour movie works out to about 7 anime episodes worth of content. You're basically slicing content in half. Of course some characters are going to suffer from that, if not be removed completely (like what happened to Gil Graham).

This is why, I would argue, the key is to make sure that your major characters aren't the ones to suffer, since they're the ones that have to carry your film and maintain interest in the narrative. The major characters here are Nanoha, Fate, Hayate, Reinforce, and the Wolkenritter. Take care of them first, and then do what you can for the supporting cast characters. And sure enough, this movie did justice amongst the major characters (some issues with the Wolkenritter's tendency towards violent solutions notwithstanding, in fairness).
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:28   Link #18
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Problem is, as has been stated, is that the movie gave Fate more scenes than was absolutely needed.

Hell, even Nanoha hasn't gotten any development from the movies yet.

Really, even if you're a Fate fan, you should admit that Chrono and/or Lindy should have had closure with the Book of Darkness.
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:31   Link #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Problem is, as has been stated, is that the movie gave Fate more scenes than was absolutely needed.

Hell, even Nanoha hasn't gotten any development from the movies yet.

Really, even if you're a Fate fan, you should admit that Chrono and/or Lindy should have had closure with the Book of Darkness.
I agree she got the most development, but if you scrapped her development scenes then she deserved more battle scenes. Which is why I think she's just fine as far as screen time goes. You don't like her development? Fine. But that doesn't change the fact it's where most of her screen time went, as opposed to action time; like Nanoha.
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:32   Link #20
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Hey, I agree she should have had better moments in her action sequences, as most of the action in the movie paled in comparison to the TV version.
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