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 AnimeSuki Forum To Aru Kagaku no Railgun - Character Discussion - Shirai "Jealousy" Kuroko

leukrota
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2011
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Dyingbreath Given teleportation's most logical mechanism there is no warping of space-time involved. Teleportation is, by necessity, instantaneous or else it is just regular movement.
In TAMNI, there is warping as the teleporting object displaces what was previously occupying the space where it arrives. Otherwise I cannot see how the displacement could take place (other than moving whatever object was in the space to a different dimension)

Dyingbreath
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen ARE YOU SURE? Frontal Lobe- associated with reasoning, planning, parts of speech, movement, emotions, and problem solving. And if you think you don't use math outside of the classroom...
Actually the angular gyrus is responsible for simple calculations, and more complex calculations are simply groups of simple calculations strung together. For most powers there would also be the whole spatial element which would involve the right parietal lobe.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen Teleportation in this story is when they move objects through the 11th dimension to reach their destination.
That's such a vague and nebulous explanation. I don't think that there is another dimension that they're dealing with.
One version of string theory,M-Theory, has 11 dimensions and it is a unifying theory that deals with strings, but the implications of that are a little fuzzy.
Most likely teleportation has to do with quantum superpositioning.
To make it simple imagine you put schrodinger's cat in a box then put that box in a warehouse of other identical boxes. According to quantum superpositioning that cat would be in all of the boxes at once. Teleportation would allow one to exploit this by being able to actually make the cat move from one box to the other. Displacing would be automatic if this happened because this would mean that the teleported object replaced the original's place in existence.
It's the most rational explanation given what I know of ESPer powers (it fits very well with the idea of personal reality). As shown by the fact that it did not instantaneously materialize Awaki's power is not this, but Kuroko's still might be.

 2013-03-30, 18:30 Link #523 leukrota Senior Member   Join Date: Mar 2011 Don't forget that it's only pseudoscience what is used in this fiction, it isn't exactly sci-fi.
Chaos2Frozen
Retroactive Momentum

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Digital World
Age: 27
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Dyingbreath As shown by the fact that it did not instantaneously materialize Awaki's power is not this, but Kuroko's still might be.
That's because we haven't seen Kuroko teleport anything truly massive.

And because she can't.

Well, they call it the 'hypothetical 11th dimension' if it means anything to you.
__________________

Dyingbreath
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen That's because we haven't seen Kuroko teleport anything truly massive. And because she can't. Well, they call it the 'hypothetical 11th dimension' if it means anything to you.
But we do see that her teleportation is instantaneous. We also see that it redefines the object's current velocity, which is interesting in its own right.

 2013-03-30, 18:42 Link #526 leukrota Senior Member   Join Date: Mar 2011 Don't mind me, I'm just randomly hitting the keyboard. Any resemblance with coherent speech is merely coincidental. *Sits in a corner, grumbling*
Chaos2Frozen
Retroactive Momentum

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Digital World
Age: 27
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Dyingbreath But we do see that her teleportation is instantaneous. We also see that it redefines the object's current velocity, which is interesting in its own right.
For smaller objects sure, even Move Point was 'instantaneous'.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by leukrota Don't mind me, I'm just randomly hitting the keyboard. Any resemblance with coherent speech is merely coincidental. *Sits in a corner, grumbling*
*pat pat*
__________________

Dyingbreath
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
 Originally Posted by leukrota Don't mind me, I'm just randomly hitting the keyboard. Any resemblance with coherent speech is merely coincidental. *Sits in a corner, grumbling*
-pats leukrota's head- there there, I'm listening to you, it's just that in an argument about fictional physics bringing in the fact that it's fiction ruins the fun of it.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen For smaller objects sure, even Move Point was 'instantaneous'.
Yeah, that doesn't really make sense. Though I suppose you could use the concept of M-theory to explain it.

 2013-03-30, 19:35 Link #529 leukrota Senior Member   Join Date: Mar 2011 Hmmm... ok, since you want to use real science, using the quantum superposition, why are objects displaced when Kuroko teleports something into them? If I understand that theory correctly, the teleported object would need the (entangled) energy available at the spot where it is to appear in order to reconstruct itself. BTW, an unfortunate consequence of her power being used under this theory would be that Kuroko kills herself (and anyone she carries) every time she teleports
Dyingbreath
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
 Originally Posted by leukrota Hmmm... ok, since you want to use real science, using the quantum superposition, why are objects displaced when Kuroko teleports something into them? If I understand that theory correctly, the teleported object would need the (entangled) energy available at the spot where it is to appear in order to reconstruct itself. BTW, an unfortunate consequence of her power being used under this theory would be that Kuroko kills herself (and anyone she carries) every time she teleports
Well that's getting into the whole question of "Prestige", but technically QSP is the only method of teleportation where that doesn't happen.
Quantum super-positioning would mean that an object's existence would shift to another place on the argument that it was technically there to begin with due to electron clouds being technically unbounded. Anything that was there to begin with would be displaced because electrons repel each other. No additional energy is needed in this case because nothing is changed. the cat was simply in that other box all along, even if only technically.

 2013-03-30, 19:58 Link #531 leukrota Senior Member   Join Date: Mar 2011 OK... let's see if I'm getting it... no wait, I'm more confused now. Does this imply an initial composite of quantum states accounting for a virtual omnipresence, where Kuroko choses the outcome (the place to be) among infinite posibilities of existence? Or does she create the desired quantum state on the fly and simply shifts between just two possibilities? Also, about the displacement, wouldn't the electron repulsion explode the two superposed objects if one isn't moved beforehand?
Dyingbreath
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
 Originally Posted by leukrota OK... let's see if I'm getting it... no wait, I'm more confused now. Does this imply an initial composite of quantum states accounting for a virtual omnipresence, where Kuroko choses the outcome (the place to be) among infinite posibilities of existence? Or does she create the desired quantum state on the fly and simply shifts between just two possibilities? Also, about the displacement, wouldn't the electron repulsion explode the two superposed objects if one isn't moved beforehand?
The repulsion isn't that strong.
And it would be the former. That is the definition of super-positioning though technically the extent of it would simply be the later since she can only choose origin and target, but she can choose the target within a 2.5million cubic meter sphere so the possibilities of existence are hardly slight.

leukrota
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2011
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Dyingbreath The repulsion isn't that strong.
I'm not talking about atomic-strength explosion, but how the... vectors, would be all over the place if the teleported object appears in the same place as another.

... Or would the objects merge?... although that's not what happens here, there's a clear displacement.

Basically my concern is how can the teleported object remain unharmed in the event of physical superposition.

Dyingbreath
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
 Originally Posted by leukrota I'm not talking about atomic-strength explosion, but how the... vectors, would be all over the place if the teleported object appears in the same place as another. ... Or would the objects merge?... although that's not what happens here, there's a clear displacement. Basically my concern is how can the teleported object remain unharmed in the event of physical superposition.
it's simple electromagnetic repulsion, no nuclear explosions. The objects wouldn't merge but they would be as close as physically possible. The teleported object remains unharmed because there is nothing that would harm it and when there is, for example a large concrete pillar, the object is harmed.
There would be no vectors because there is no movement

 2013-03-30, 21:04 Link #535 leukrota Senior Member   Join Date: Mar 2011 So at worst, Kuroko would be passing gas all the time, due to the absorption of the accumulated air from the places she teleports to. Maybe that's the real reason Mikoto tries to avoid her all the time.
 2013-03-31, 00:56 Link #536 tsunade666 Senior Member     Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: In my room you guys are making it more complicated. teleport in tamni works the same as warp technology. the object is send through 11th dimension and squeeze back into this dimension. __________________
Dyingbreath
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
 Originally Posted by tsunade666 you guys are making it more complicated. teleport in tamni works the same as warp technology. the object is send through 11th dimension and squeeze back into this dimension.
There is no proof that that is how all the teleporters teleport and it makes no sense in terms of personal reality. Quantum Super-positioning is perfect in that regards so it is way way more likely.

leukrota
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2011
Quote:
 Originally Posted by tsunade666 you guys are making it more complicated. teleport in tamni works the same as warp technology. the object is send through 11th dimension and squeeze back into this dimension.
Well, I know, but it's still fun to play along a thought experiment.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Dyingbreath There is no proof that that is how all the teleporters teleport and it makes no sense in terms of personal reality. Quantum Super-positioning is perfect in that regards so it is way way more likely.
At the least that's how Kuroko does it, according to her own statements.

...You may have the wrong impression of personal reality. ALL Espers have it, independently of what's their ability, and I can't see Quantum Mechanics explaining them all.

Dyingbreath
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
 Originally Posted by leukrota At the least that's how Kuroko does it, according to her own statements.
Where exactly does she say that.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by leukrota ...You may have the wrong impression of personal reality. ALL Espers have it, independently of what's their ability, and I can't see Quantum Mechanics explaining them all.
You can explain everything through quantum mechanics, that's the point of quantum mechanics. Quantum physics leads to regular physics which leads to everything else (except math but to hell with math).

leukrota
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2011
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Dyingbreath Where exactly does she say that.
Hmm... I don't feel like searching the manga, but here's something from the novels

Spoiler for TAMNI Vol.8:

There are further mentions of the 11th dimension in that volume. You can go see for yourself.

If you're still dissatisfied I can search the manga. I could swear Kuroko mentions it somewhere.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Dyingbreath You can explain everything through quantum mechanics, that's the point of quantum mechanics. Quantum physics leads to regular physics which leads to everything else (except math but to hell with math).
I can't say I'm an physics expert, but wasn't the whole problem with quantum mechanics that it could not explain everything?

Which is the reason of the constant search for a different theory that can, being the M-theory, strings and superstring attempts at doing just that.