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Old 2013-03-30, 22:00   Link #121
astayanax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
I never really liked how Tobirama was apparently killed by 20 nameless Kumo ninja either. I guess Kishimoto just couldn't come up with a guy who would be strong enough to kill them, so he went with this. Hashirama will probably have met a similar fate.
Tobirama getting killed by 20 nameless joes isn't a big deal by itself.

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Old 2013-03-30, 23:02   Link #122
Ulquiorra
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They weren't 20 nameless jonin. They were elite mooks named the Kinkaku Force. Which were probably similar to Konoha's 12 Fire Guardians and Kiri's 7 Swordsmen of the Mist.

The problem is Kishi has overpowered his Kages to the point where they are Super Saiyan clones who can level countries. The Third Raikage took on 10,000 ninja by himself for three days. So people can't see how 20 really good jonin could take out Tobirama. But what if they were all similar in power to Kakashi, Gai, and Ino-Shika-Cho?

That is why it is best to ignore the power levels in the manga. They'll change to fit the story.
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Old 2013-03-31, 05:31   Link #123
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
The problem is Kishi has overpowered his Kages to the point where they are Super Saiyan clones who can level countries. The Third Raikage took on 10,000 ninja by himself for three days. So people can't see how 20 really good jonin could take out Tobirama. But what if they were all similar in power to Kakashi, Gai, and Ino-Shika-Cho?
I complained about this when the 2nd part of the manga began, even Deidara had the power to destroy a ninja village with 1 bomb. And he had a lot more, as we saw in his fight against Sasuke. Kishimoto had to make teams of 2 for akatsuki to give some chance to ninja villages, had they all attacked together then the village would have no chance. The problem is simply that we have a lot of supermen but Kishimoto tells us about how important teamwork is, how important organizations like clans and villages are. For instance how come in 3 world wars not even one of the major 5 villages was destroyed, even in our world where wars are not as insane as there some powers were destroyed in each world war, that is the war had an actual outcome that matters and not just a huge amount of dead people.

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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
That is why it is best to ignore the power levels in the manga. They'll change to fit the story.
Yes, we should also ignore things like the feudal lords and godlike individuals being stronger than organizations, etc. After doing that the manga is quite enjoyable

But sometimes the anime filler just makes it obviously clear that such anomalies exist: for example in the recent episode when the alliance army fought the Edo tensei mizukage without Gaara and other kages. It was funny as hell All they could do is throwing Kunai at him and then he yells at them that they are idiots, then they slowly and sadly collect their weapons and walk back to the starting position to try it again You have to see it to appreciate how funny it is Seeing that scene i was thinking the only way that they can defeat the mizukage is if they use the super-secret weapon: the deadly joke that would make the mizukage lough so hard that he can't stop until he is sealed
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Old 2013-03-31, 08:56   Link #124
Monster0
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Then we find out that the world is already under a genjutsu created by the Sage.He created the ninja world right,he's considered a god right,he split the universe into yin and yang(his two sons that inherit his powers).Everything is already an illusion.That's messed up.
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Old 2013-03-31, 09:41   Link #125
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
But sometimes the anime filler just makes it obviously clear that such anomalies exist: for example in the recent episode when the alliance army fought the Edo tensei mizukage without Gaara and other kages. It was funny as hell All they could do is throwing Kunai at him and then he yells at them that they are idiots, then they slowly and sadly collect their weapons and walk back to the starting position to try it again You have to see it to appreciate how funny it is Seeing that scene i was thinking the only way that they can defeat the mizukage is if they use the super-secret weapon: the deadly joke that would make the mizukage lough so hard that he can't stop until he is sealed
that wasn't filler. also, i dont think it was bad. i couldn't imagine a group of nameless ninja killing anyone at kage level. people at kage level are not only good at protecting themselves in various ways, but they also usually have epic techniques that can wipe out many people at once. i imagine the same situation would happen regardless of what kage they faced, living or dead
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Old 2013-03-31, 09:53   Link #126
JustRob
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
But sometimes the anime filler just makes it obviously clear that such anomalies exist: for example in the recent episode when the alliance army fought the Edo tensei mizukage without Gaara and other kages. It was funny as hell All they could do is throwing Kunai at him and then he yells at them that they are idiots, then they slowly and sadly collect their weapons and walk back to the starting position to try it again You have to see it to appreciate how funny it is Seeing that scene i was thinking the only way that they can defeat the mizukage is if they use the super-secret weapon: the deadly joke that would make the mizukage lough so hard that he can't stop until he is sealed
That was filler? I thought that was canon. That's the fillers I hate the most, the one they mix in with canon stuff in one episode. Please, if you're gonna filler, do it in separate episodes so we can skip over them.
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Old 2013-03-31, 10:03   Link #127
james0246
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
For instance how come in 3 world wars not even one of the major 5 villages was destroyed, even in our world where wars are not as insane as there some powers were destroyed in each world war, that is the war had an actual outcome that matters and not just a huge amount of dead people.
Nuclear deterrents. Just as Russia and America didn't kill themselves during the Cold War (and why a less stabilized, country like N.Korea or Iran is more dangerous), the deterrent of an immediate counter strike prevented major damage to the villages. It is only after the most monstrous of figures were destroyed that any possible move could be committed against a major village.
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Old 2013-03-31, 12:52   Link #128
The Small One
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
I don't even get why they brought Minato back. He doesn't really know anything about what they're discussing, since he wasn't there. He's just kinda standing there acting as a small comic relief to show that Hashirama was a loud and hyper kind of dude.
IIRC the reason for Minato to be there was, that he could comment on Oro beeing able to break the seal.
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Old 2013-03-31, 12:57   Link #129
JustRob
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IIRC the reason for Minato to be there was, that he could comment on Oro beeing able to break the seal.
Yea except it was Hiruzen who commented on that not Minato
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Old 2013-03-31, 13:42   Link #130
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
that wasn't filler. also, i dont think it was bad. i couldn't imagine a group of nameless ninja killing anyone at kage level. people at kage level are not only good at protecting themselves in various ways, but they also usually have epic techniques that can wipe out many people at once. i imagine the same situation would happen regardless of what kage they faced, living or dead
The mizukage's fight with Gaara wasn't a filler, but the very long and pointless "fighting" of the mizukage and the noname ninja army was a filler. Some fighting did happen and the army could not defeat the mizukage, we see a panel where a lot of them are lying on the ground around the mizukage, some probably dead. But we don't get to see what happened, so we can assume that they did put up a decent fight, used elemental jutsu and summoning and whatever tactics they devised, it's up to one's imagination. However the anime just shows them throing kunai and failing contiuosly for several minutes, that's just ridiculous, it assumes that one division of the army (that should be thousands of people) can't do anything else than throwing kunai, they can't even use ninja techniques What i meant was that the anime failed to fill in the holes that the manga left to it, it should be an easy thing but as usual the anime failed. Just because a few thousand of ninja were not named that doesn't mean that they can only throw kunai, for example they should have at least one guy like Dodai who was helping Naruto against the raikage in a very smart way and had some quite cool jutsu of his own. I didn't expect them to win, but at least put up a decent fight when there were supposed to be dozens of jounins among them.

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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
That was filler? I thought that was canon. That's the fillers I hate the most, the one they mix in with canon stuff in one episode. Please, if you're gonna filler, do it in separate episodes so we can skip over them.
They have to do some fillers, the manga contains snapshots of the events, so they have to fill in the missing parts, but often they fail to do so in a decent way, and it's usually when they decide to put in a larger portion of filler between two manga panels. For example a short and good filler was between Sasori using his first scroll (he was wearing them on his back) where he used fire and his last scroll which was his 100 puppet army. They put in a water jutsu scroll there, which added a nice action sequence.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Nuclear deterrents. Just as Russia and America didn't kill themselves during the Cold War (and why a less stabilized, country like N.Korea or Iran is more dangerous), the deterrent of an immediate counter strike prevented major damage to the villages. It is only after the most monstrous of figures were destroyed that any possible move could be committed against a major village.
Well i would accept that if we didn't know that the villages knew exactly that only a very few of the hosts could control their tailed beast. Apparently it was common knowledge that only KillerBee and a very few others were able to control, others would be like malfunctioning WMDs that would probably destroy their own village. Also there were kages that could beat them or seal them, for example the 3rd raikage could knock out the 8-tails. In case of the possibility of attacking Iran the most important "deterrent" for the USA and it's allies now is the fear of negative media coverage and more importantly that it would be very expensive. The cold war would be a good example, but i just fail to see the tailed beasts as WMDs. A real WMD could be only the 10-tails controlled by someone like Madara, but there's only one of that.
But before the mutual assure destruction politics all world wars ended by the destruction of loser, for example the german military power was destroyed twice, in the second case even the country was divided into two parts (i could imagine if Konoha was destroyed the neighbours would divide the Fire country into 3-4 parts )
Maybe the author wanted us to believe that the kage not leaving the village and the host of the tailed beast (like Mito or Bee) being with him would have a defensive effect that would be scary enough so that enemy armies would not attack the village directly.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2013-03-31 at 14:10.
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Old 2013-03-31, 18:41   Link #131
Hunter
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You dramatically underestimate the destructive power of the Jinchuuriki, a single Bijuudama can destroy a significant part of a village and we've seen that they can be fired in quick succession. The Juubi isn't just a WMD, it's apocalypse incarnated, capable of casually wiping out countries and eventually probably entire continent.
There are of course every now and then exceptional ninja with the same kind of power as Bijuu but the Jinchuuriki allowed the deterrent to be perpetual since they didn't age nor die.
And Germany wasn't destroyed after WW1, nor was its military. Historically speaking it's very rare for a country to completely cease to exist just because it was defeated.
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:16   Link #132
james0246
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I wasn't even really referring to the the Jinchuuriki. There are plenty of non-Jinchuuriki that can blow shit up. Thankfully, there are plenty of minor villages out there for all these monsters to go in and have their pissing contests without worrying about "nuclear retaliation" from places with actual power (ala every "war" America fought in during the Cold War).
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Old 2013-04-01, 05:28   Link #133
Kenu
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Thanks for the links back to the previous chapters.

I'm re-reading Chapter 486 and it's pretty much the same as the current chapter.

Uchiha and Senju = Uchiha and Uzumaki => Let's die together in a lover's embrace!


Sasuke's saying the same thing as Madara did.. "why do you love me so much Hashirama/Naruto?" ROFL..

oh dear... anyway.
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Old 2013-04-01, 10:55   Link #134
Ero-Senn1n
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You dramatically underestimate the destructive power of the Jinchuuriki, a single Bijuudama can destroy a significant part of a village and we've seen that they can be fired in quick succession.
In theory i can agree, but practice shows that whenever they try to use these they fail. They tried to use Gaara on Konoha but it failed, because he was like most of the hosts who can't control the beast, instead they risk losing control over it and then the host dies and the beast can be captured by the other villages. Also it's somewhat of a nonsense since it's supposed to not leave the village so to not lose it but on the other hand it's supposed to bring big destruction but since it doesn't leave the village the destruction would really hurt a lot the village Before Bee a lot of people died in kumo, same in Gaara's case where Gaara killed people in his own village. In the very beginning of the manga it's exlpained how the evil 9-tailed monster almost destroyed konoha, but then we learn how it was Tobito's plan, and considering all the facts it's not even a great plan, it's just natural to do so. It was like Bin Laden's plan but on a much larger scale.

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The Juubi isn't just a WMD, it's apocalypse incarnated, capable of casually wiping out countries and eventually probably entire continent.
I think you underestimate WMDs, in the cold war if they used them there would most likely be no intelligent life on the planet any more.

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
There are of course every now and then exceptional ninja with the same kind of power as Bijuu but the Jinchuuriki allowed the deterrent to be perpetual since they didn't age nor die.
Again in theory i agree, but my point was that the manga failed to show it to me in practice. These Bijuu are as you say, but the villages can control these even more rarely as they give birth to exceptional kages who can beat them. Of course it would be really nice if Kishimoto told us that the Uzumaki women controlling the kyuubi were able to deal massive damage to some army that attacked konoha, but unfortunately the author was too busy showing us how great the kages are at beating the tailed beasts. I know Kishimoto tends to not show women kicking ass, but Mito and Kushina could have been the perfect opportunity to show us some bijuu-powered girl power.

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And Germany wasn't destroyed after WW1, nor was its military. Historically speaking it's very rare for a country to completely cease to exist just because it was defeated.
It's about the military system, not the country itself. Germany was completely disarmed and the imperial system changed into a republic with democratic elections.

In the manga it seems that Kishimoto doesn't want to tell anything about the country itself, he just focuses on the villages. I expected that the forming of ninja villages would be also the birth of the fire country, but it seems that the author tells the opposite, the fire village seems to be a constant thing in the story.
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Old 2013-04-03, 00:06   Link #135
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New Chapter thread has been opened. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.
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