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Old 2013-03-30, 23:03   Link #5901
Ithekro
Space Battleship
 
 
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I would point out that the context of the school closing had nothing to do with Senshado. That was basically brought up as a way to earn the school some sort of following and likely increase enrollment (as well as maybe patrons).

Due to this the enrollment in other schools will go down slightly, but one could consider it acceptible considering Ooarai's likely 20 year slide to the bottom of the enrollment pile. You close down schools that start to not have enough students to justify its existance. The town is there to support the school, so if the school closes, the town (and ship) are unnecessary. The people can relocate to the actual town of Ooarai were many of them are from. Some would have to lose their shops, but that is business. They might make it on land, they might not. That's not the school boards concern. The school is. If the school isn't attracting people, you close it to save money and redistribute the students to other schools.

Sometimes old schools get repurposed. Locally, the High School my parents went to closed down decades ago, but it still exists. It was repurposed as an Adult ED school and I think extra space for the elementary school. The middle school that was there was torn down. Another school was closed down when the district could it would cost too much to refit the school under the new EPA codes (asbestos). It became a Jewish Community Center until recently when they closed down. I don't know what has happened to the building in the last year, though I know it needed work as the Center had been trying to raise money for years to tear it down to make a new building.

I don't know who would repurpose a school ship, but 7.5 km of ship must be useful to somebody, unless it is so all that it is a maintenance nightmare (also driving up costs). Sort of like why USS Enterprise (CVN-65)was retired. The sailor on her loved her and hated her. She was a great ship, but being one of a knd and 50 years old made her a nightmare to keep running.
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Old 2013-03-30, 23:14   Link #5902
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
No obvious results in itself is an obvious failure. The existence of the school ships were to have results of any kind, and Ooarai had none until Miho's victory. That meant the Ooarai itself as an obvious failure.
Since when is the primary reason for a school to have its clubs win matches?

OK, I can see that if they have a budget crunch, that school without obvious wins, does not have a national theme that will make it politically messy to close down and is relatively small would tend to come up. But an "obvious failure"?
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Old 2013-03-30, 23:17   Link #5903
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Since when is the primary reason for a school to have its clubs win matches?

OK, I can see that if they have a budget crunch, that school without obvious wins, does not have a national theme that will make it politically messy to close down and is relatively small would tend to come up. But an "obvious failure"?
Because any investments not making returns (results) is a failure. Is that so hard to understand?
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Old 2013-03-30, 23:24   Link #5904
Ithekro
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Save the none of it is tied to winning tank matches at all. The budget has nothing to do with tank victorys and defeat.

The only reason it is brought up is because if Ooarai wins they will gain a reputation as a good school for the sport and students will want to go there. Either to play the sport or becaues having a winning team seems awesome to teenagers or their parents. Sort of like how people want to go to the school with the winning football team. The school's team winning does nothing for the budget, but it attracts students to enroll there. More students brings more money, as at least in this part of the United States, the amount of tax dollars a school gets is based on enrollment, attendance, and standardized test scores.
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Old 2013-03-31, 00:01   Link #5905
MarkS00N
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Arkh, I want to reply to most of your post but unfortunately it will only lead to this sentence of you:
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Since when is the primary reason for a school to have its clubs win matches?
So I'll reply some that pretty much won't change our discussion too something as ridiculous as that.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
That would be news to me. When did we see them? Besides, how does even that compare to Jadgtiger and Maus.
From side material as I told you...
I found the picture in WoT forum where it shows Earl Grey and Cromwell, Kay rides on Pershing, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Now you are deliberately inflating other people's tank fleets.
We know that Saunder and St. Gloriana has more than what they show, so why not?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Missing the point. You will notice that I was analyzing individual skills there.
Not missing the point because as I said, Miho's coordinating her comrade's panzer is also essential...
The Pravda hit you mention mostly because Pravda encircle Oaraia, does KMM ever encircle Oarai?

Saunder does not panic because Oarai never penetrate their formation, Oarai go straight for Alice...
The fact that Oarai can pretty much find Alice without the need to face another Saunder forces can also be evident against Saunder...
Remember that KMM flag only exposed to possible lethal shot once Oarai only has two tanks left...
Another point, if Miho knows what Saunder basic strategy is, she will use Stug mroe efficiently much like she conditioning Hetzer in its position before...

Basically, you just can't compare these school relative to their performance against Oarai without inclunding: Miho's knowledge, Oarai's student experience, and Oarai's tank performance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Those shower and salon cars are extravagant but are still cheaper than the Maus, you know.
They are the RICHEST school...
Don't you think it means they also get SURPLUS on budget?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
What I find puzzling is your apparent insistence on turning Oarai's inferiority in the competitiveness stakes from relative to absolute.
Show me in which sentence I did that.
I merely said that Oarai situation is reasonable to get closed (TWENTY YEARS of nothing special and diminishing student which is critical to a SCHOOL) while KMM is FAR FAR AWAY from being closed.

===

Arkh...
This whole debate begin with you believe that one school must be closed in response to Oarai no longer in danger of being closed...
You have your argument that KMM will be the one based on their recent performance...
People disagree with that...

What people disagreeing is your extreme assumption that KMM current record is so shameful it is past redemption (which means it is okay to close them)...
However, those assumption of yours is too extreme and irrational because we have Oarai that for 20 years didn't have anything special and continuous diminishing student which defeat the purpose of schoolship in the first place (to get students learned there) yet it took 20 years before considered as acceptable to get closed...

Compare that to KMM recent defeat, that is too freaking fast and too much incomparable...
KMM might has numerous department unrelated do school, but it is still schoolship first and foremost, thus as long as it get a lot of new students each year, it is still considered successful...
If something will be closed, it will be the departement...

As Ithekro said, it isn't about Oarai's victory or defeat...
The argument shift to that point because you bring about the KMM's defeat and people try to counter it and thus far people are winning it while you ignore it because extreme assumption you have but others' don't...

It is simply about whether or not Oarai's existence is wasteful or not...
KMM certainly not a wasteful because they still reach the final, they still defeat non-Oarai enemy, and if you go by winrate then their winrate still exceed their loserate...
On the other hand, up toll before they win, Oarai has zero redeeming quality which warrant it as wasteful...
Now they have something that may attract new students, they no longer faced closing and for now none will...
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Old 2013-03-31, 00:07   Link #5906
LoweGear
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The point is that KMM isn't going to close down just because of two straight defeats at the FINALS. Had they suffered two straight defeats at the preliminaries than maybe that'll be believable, but even then it's still a farfetched idea at best. That KMM even managed to win for 9 years straight in a row wins that they were doing something right those past 9 years, and two years of defeats at the tournament finals isn't something that'll tarnish their record enough to warrant them closing down.

Now speaking of Black Forest...

Images
Sisters
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Old 2013-03-31, 01:37   Link #5907
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Now speaking of Black Forest...

Images
Sisters
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Sisters and Tanks. That was such a winning artwork. The daaawww is strong with Maho.
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Old 2013-03-31, 01:41   Link #5908
Sumeragi
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I rather have this:

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Nishizumi Sisters
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Family reunion~
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Old 2013-03-31, 01:58   Link #5909
Wild Goose
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I rather have this:

Family reunion~
Maho, where are you putting your hands?

Not that I disapprove.

Sadly, I think this is the only thing we agree on: MahoxMiho ftw.

Of course the only pairing that's immune to the Ion Canon is YukarixPanzer FTW.
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Old 2013-03-31, 02:14   Link #5910
arkhangelsk
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OK, instead of blasting KMM again, let's talk Oarai first

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Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post
It is simply about whether or not Oarai's existence is wasteful or not...
...
On the other hand, up toll before they win, Oarai has zero redeeming quality which warrant it as wasteful...
Now they have something that may attract new students, they no longer faced closing
I'll have to actually disagree with this.

The bureaucrat offers 2 reasons why Oarai has to go.

1) In recent (not 20) years, its enrollment is falling.
OK, sure. However, he doesn't actually say this is an Oarai-only problem. In fact, if we assume GuP Japan to be an analogue of modern Japan except for schoolships and Tankery (which it seems to be), falling enrollments is much more likely to be afflicting most schoolships than just one. There are simply fewer people of the right age.

In terms of its current enrollment, it still has a higher occupancy rate than Pravda, whose deck is clearly half empty. It also probably has more enrollment than the tiny French submarine school. We can infer its cost-efficiency is thus not the lowest either.

Maybe in several years that would change, but at least the visible facts does not seem to warrant Oarai being "wasteful".

2) In recent (not 20) years, they don't have 目立った活動 (oh, sorry, it wasn't jisseki, it was katsudo, notable activities)
Which probably means they hadn't been winning in national competitions and the like. Well, OK, I can agree that this is a relative risk factor, but this still doesn't go to "wasteful" since Club activities are ultimately supposed to be an adjunct to regular work.

For the matter, we don't even know how many other schools have 目立った活動. OK, KMM, Saunders, Pravda and St. Glorianna clearly have successful Tankery programs. But that still leaves a lot of other potential victims.

And here's one that was not spoken, but many here including me agree is likely to be a factor.

3) Oarai lacks a national theme
OK, undoubtedly that would be a disadvantage, but come on, even this cannot justify calling a school wasteful. Besides, MEXT knew and acccepted from the start that this school would not be a parody of some other nation, so that's not a very valid basis for complaint.

In short, while I can see why Oarai is disadvantaged, I see it as only relative and relatively minor. Otherwise, they won't be able to get on the right side of the fence just by winning a Tankery match. Certainly, "wasteful" is unjustified.

Quote:
KMM certainly not a wasteful because they still reach the final, they still defeat non-Oarai enemy, and if you go by winrate then their winrate still exceed their loserate...
They lost to the Pravdans last year too, let's not forget.

In my opinion, whether a school is wasteful or not depends less on whether it is winning in clubs as whether it is producing good students, and in their vocational sections, whether they are training people ready to become professionals.

Further I'll say if you are a school that trains tankers as a specialty, winning against amateur Tankery teams is a minimum requirement, not something to be counted as a seika or jisseki (result with positive connotation). Any failure to do so should already have brought on the most critical investigation. And that's before we think of the equipment.

Anyway, forget about whether they are winning or losing. Just look at KMM's Tankery team as of Ep7&Ep10-12, apparently products of their Armored Department. Are they doing a good job making tankers? Is the enemy just better (which is already bad enough - remember, this is Pro v Amateur), or are they simply bad?

If not, at that point, the school is being wasteful. The fact bureaucrats may be insensitive does not change this fact. Even if it is increasing its enrollment while everybody else are losing them, what good does it do if the students don't come out well - in such a situation, more students = more money for nothing = more waste.

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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Now speaking of Black Forest...

Images
Sisters
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Well, now that's a very charming and sweet picture.

Whoever drew it was careful to just avoid showing Miho's panties too.


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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Exactly why everything you just said is worthless. You are not thinking in the mind of a bureaucrat, but an idealist. I wouldn't go into potential bias and such.
Right now, before debating into how best to simulate a bureaucratic mind, I'm backtracking a bit to sweep up the problem of whether Oarai is wasteful and whether KMM is not. Let's get the truth plotted out first before debating how bureaucrats might see the same sene.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2013-03-31 at 02:31. Reason: Not worth an extra post
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Old 2013-03-31, 02:27   Link #5911
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
In my opinion
Exactly why everything you just said is worthless. You are not thinking in the mind of a bureaucrat, but an idealist. I wouldn't go into potential bias and such.
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Old 2013-03-31, 02:48   Link #5912
Ithekro
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Black Forest Peak has won at the minimum of 42 of its last 44 matches. If one only takes this tournament into account. They won 3 out of 4 matches each in both this years and last year's tournement. Before their loss to Pravda last year they had won at least 39 straight tournament matches. Just getting to the finals in most sports is a sign of a good team.

The other schools might have other specialities than just tanks. I would think the French based school with be a culinary academy. Smaller student population, but large money put into it by the parents and student...and maybe even the industry itself. Plus there could easily be other schools that are not national themed, nor partake in tank tournaments. How many high schools are there in Japan and how large is the combined student body? Is it more than 16 city carrier's worth?

Ooarai doesn't seem to have anything the school is known for, so it would receive less applications over the years. Because it is a girls school, one would guess it isn't a regular public school (do they even have that sort of difference in Japan?) And schools like that generally need something that draws in students to stay open. (Where do the boys go to high school?)

And thus if closed the girls would be transfered to some other school.

There are schools that are around because the get students due to their sports teams. There are others for their acedemics or specialty courses the school is known for. Ooarai seems to not be particularly known for anything save not having a tank course these last two decades (the reason Miho entered the school in the first place). With Hana around you might suspect the school has a vibrant Flower Arrangement program, but there is no evidance such a thing exists as a notable feature of the school.


And Pravda's clear spaces just mimic the actual ship it is based on. The front part is ramped upwards so you couldn't put building on it as easily and maintain "the look" of the carrier Kiev. Also it is Russian themed. The open spaces might be their "Siberia"
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Old 2013-03-31, 03:16   Link #5913
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The other schools might have other specialities than just tanks. I would think the French based school with be a culinary academy. Smaller student population, but large money put into it by the parents and student...and maybe even the industry itself. Plus there could easily be other schools that are not national themed, nor partake in tank tournaments. How many high schools are there in Japan and how large is the combined student body? Is it more than 16 city carrier's worth?
According to the Japanese Wikipedia, there are about 3.5 million high school students in Japan as of 2005 (double that for total secondary school students), and though it has been dropping for years now, it does imply there are some city ships that we never see. On the other hand, if there are too many city ships that aren't in the competition, the government's call for more Tankery must have failed spectacularly, so that's a problem as well.

A Third Option (though there's no evidence to support it, neither is there actual evidence of more city ships) may be to hypothesize that a lot of parents don't like the idea of sending their kids on city-carriers, but since no land-based high schools are available, they resort to some form of distance-learning.

Quote:
And Pravda's clear spaces just mimic the actual ship it is based on. The front part is ramped upwards so you couldn't put building on it as easily and maintain "the look" of the carrier Kiev. Also it is Russian themed. The open spaces might be their "Siberia"
They can have their Siberia and their cruiser bow, but it still reduces their cost-efficiency (at least as far as we can see) since it is still empty, unused real estate.

Overall, what you say ... that the other schools have unknown redeeming attributes, is certainly possible, but there is no evidence for it yet and I'm not as thrilled as some people to just speculate our poor protagonist school is so far behind on the competitive stakes. Besides, if it is so far behind and we continue to be cynical and realistic, the most probable result is that a mere Tankery win won't save it and it will be shut down again very soon. Now that is a real Downer Ending.
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Old 2013-03-31, 03:30   Link #5914
Ithekro
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There has been more than one film or TV plot were the goal of the students is to win the Big Game so their school will survive. The win sometimes is prize money, other times it is just that winning the big tournement increases donations and enrollment....lining the pockets of trustees betting on the games....

Depending on exactly how schools in this universe get funding and to what end the priorities are.
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Old 2013-03-31, 04:01   Link #5915
MarkS00N
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I'm not as thrilled as some people to just speculate our poor protagonist school is so far behind on the competitive stakes. Besides, if it is so far behind and we continue to be cynical and realistic, the most probable result is that a mere Tankery win won't save it and it will be shut down again very soon. Now that is a real Downer Ending.
Duh, it isn't speculation...
It has been stated in episode 9:
"Your school been losing students and failing to distinguish itself in any way"

Also the fact that it need to sell its once proud tanks show how serious their condition is...

Now they win the Senshado competition, it means they have succeed in distinguish themselves so they no longer need to worry...
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Old 2013-03-31, 05:45   Link #5916
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post
Duh, it isn't speculation...
It has been stated in episode 9:
"Your school been losing students and failing to distinguish itself in any way"
I commented on just this part:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...62#post4613862

Quote:
Also the fact that it need to sell its once proud tanks show how serious their condition is...
Well, they were closing the elective. It is natural to sell the salable equipment if they can.
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Old 2013-03-31, 06:07   Link #5917
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post
Duh, it isn't speculation...
It has been stated in episode 9:
"Your school been losing students and failing to distinguish itself in any way"

Also the fact that it need to sell its once proud tanks show how serious their condition is...

Now they win the Senshado competition, it means they have succeed in distinguish themselves so they no longer need to worry...
This year. They may have to keep... if not winning, at least doing well.
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Old 2013-03-31, 06:08   Link #5918
arkhangelsk
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Yes, if someone else doesn't get sunk or at least suffer a massive budget reduction, I'm afraid that will be a realistic appraisal of the situation.
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Old 2013-03-31, 06:18   Link #5919
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On the flip side, the championship helped save Ooarai, and gave the school a boost in prestige in the process. On the down side, they have to continue winning to prove to MEXT that it wasn't just a one-time fluke. No pressure right?
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Old 2013-03-31, 06:44   Link #5920
arkhangelsk
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Well, on a lighter topic.

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An reversal of position:
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