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Old 2013-03-31, 19:04   Link #3161
Keroko
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less of a plothole and more the exact details of Divide Zero having been left unexplained for now.
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Old 2013-03-31, 19:11   Link #3162
Sansker
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And I think they will never give a proper explanation about it. But right now is still an inconsistency, like I still see it with the Barrier Jackets in the AMF of the Cradle. As a matter of fact I have been wondering something.

Won’t this tech, AMF or the Dividers be lethal to beings like the Wolkenritter. Think about it. We see in A’s that once they lose their Linker Cores their bodies vanish without trace. So when we deal with things that either prevent magic linking or break it, and the Wolkenritter are magic creations, should they disappear? Their bodies aren’t real but just a construct that acts like a real body, however cut the energy and they become dust, something real people don’t suffer. So really this should make them lose their physical form. Then Vita says they are “more human” but still their bodies don’t change, so yeah, there is that but still doesn’t explain what they are or how this tech affects them.
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Old 2013-03-31, 19:14   Link #3163
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I really think that magic in nanoha comes down to two forms...

Physical which can't be undone by anti-magic

And energy which can.

Barrier Jackets, devices, familiars are all physical.

Shields, binds, bullets, beams are all energy.
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Old 2013-03-31, 19:21   Link #3164
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Well that is ok, I guess, but when the difference between one and the other isn't clear one must wonder.
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Old 2013-03-31, 20:46   Link #3165
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
I really think that magic in nanoha comes down to two forms...

Physical which can't be undone by anti-magic

And energy which can.

Barrier Jackets, devices, familiars are all physical.

Shields, binds, bullets, beams are all energy.
This seems consistent.

It also suggests that when Signum and Agito wiped out those drones with fire, the fire was unaffected by the AMF. Creating the flames is magic, but the fire was ignited outside of the field.

Vita's Swallow Flier would work similarly.
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Old 2013-03-31, 20:50   Link #3166
Akiyoshi
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It also suggests that when Signum and Agito wiped out those drones with fire, the fire was unaffected by the AMF. Creating the flames is magic, but the fire was ignited outside of the field.
Which comes in direct contrast with their performance against Cypha, again lots of fan theories emerged to explain that one but so far if feels like a case of BTSS xDU
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:10   Link #3167
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Which comes in direct contrast with their performance against Cypha
How so? Never read that far into FORCE.

To disprove the idea that magically created flames count as "physical" as Vita's steel spheres, those flames would need to be "de-linked" just like purely magical constructs such as Divine Shooter or Panzerschild.
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:22   Link #3168
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Yeah, if i remeber correctly someone proposed the theory about Fire MCA works by using mana as fuel for the flames and thus being extinguished the moment Eclipse severed the link of the mana fueling the fire.

In that sense AMF should work something similar over Fire MCA isn't?
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:29   Link #3169
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To be honest, the fire got cut, fire can out out surprisingly easily if you swing something into it or swing it hard enough.
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:30   Link #3170
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To be honest, the fire got cut, fire can out out surprisingly easily if you swing something into it or swing it hard enough.
Yeah, that's the point, if Eclipse can do that i wonder why AMF can't.
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:33   Link #3171
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AMF to fire elements is basically humidity and Eclipse is a strong wind?
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:44   Link #3172
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No really. AMF and Dividers affect the bounds of magic in different ways but they seem to have similar results.
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Old 2013-04-01, 05:54   Link #3173
Hoki
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I think its how they affect magic that spells the difference between AMF and the Divider.

From my observation. AMF affects magic in a slow and gradual manner, slowly severing magical bonds or whatnot. This is why an AMF shockwave easily dispels magic as the effect is instantaneous, but a normal AMF does not. Stocking magic spells over another is shown as an effective way to deal with a normal AMF (e.g Teana's Variable barrel), or using more magic than the AMF can dispel is also a good way (like how Nanoha defeated Dieci by making her Excelion Buster stronger, to compensate for the AMF, which her opponent is unaffected).

Dividers on the other hand, dispel magic, no matter how powerful, instantaneously, but (since I'm not really sure, wasm't really paying attention to that part in Force) only if it touches the "infected." or the weapon itself. Thus Cypha easily curbstomps Signum because she is basically magic immune, so any magically enhanced attack (like Signum's fire slash) would instantly be nullified, leaving only a sword strike (which proves to be somewhat effective until they react and develop hierro). But I think there is a limit to the amount of magic they can nullify, since Hayate scared the shit out of the Hucks when she was casting Heimdall to bring the Esquad down as they cannot fully dispel a spell so large. If not for (sexy) Curren, they would've been screwed. But then again, nobody is as powerful as Hayate.

So there. ^_^
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Old 2013-04-01, 06:14   Link #3174
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
I really think that magic in nanoha comes down to two forms...

Physical which can't be undone by anti-magic

And energy which can.

Barrier Jackets, devices, familiars are all physical.

Shields, binds, bullets, beams are all energy.
Yes, that sounds like the most consistent explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
AMF to fire elements is basically humidity and Eclipse is a strong wind?
That wouldn't explain why Signum's flames in the second fight suddenly did work though. 'tis a bit of a plothole, that. Especially since they did specify elemental attacks circumvent AMF in the StrikerS manga by virtue of being elements rather than magic.
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Old 2013-04-01, 09:31   Link #3175
Akiyoshi
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Dividers on the other hand, dispel magic, no matter how powerful, instantaneously, but (since I'm not really sure, wasm't really paying attention to that part in Force) only if it touches the "infected." or the weapon itself. Thus Cypha easily curbstomps Signum because she is basically magic immune, so any magically enhanced attack (like Signum's fire slash) would instantly be nullified, leaving only a sword strike (which proves to be somewhat effective until they react and develop hierro). But I think there is a limit to the amount of magic they can nullify, since Hayate scared the shit out of the Hucks when she was casting Heimdall to bring the Esquad down as they cannot fully dispel a spell so large. If not for (sexy) Curren, they would've been screwed. But then again, nobody is as powerful as Hayate.

So there. ^_^
Good argument but the Hucks weren't scarred of Hayate's Heimdall because it was "too much for them to dispell" in fact, Cypha was dispelling it just fine. They were scarred shitless because the spell accumulated real surrounding water to make a very physicall and very real GIANT MOUNTAIN OF ICE! she was about to land on their heads xD! Dispelling it won't do any good to them because the mountain was already there and since it's a humongous physical object their Anti-Magic wouldn't work on it meaning it will be Mount Everest VS. Squad Huckebein's physical resillience xDU No wonder Fortis pissed his pants when he saw that xD
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Old 2013-04-01, 10:08   Link #3176
krisslanza
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And I think they will never give a proper explanation about it. But right now is still an inconsistency, like I still see it with the Barrier Jackets in the AMF of the Cradle. As a matter of fact I have been wondering something.

Wonít this tech, AMF or the Dividers be lethal to beings like the Wolkenritter. Think about it. We see in Aís that once they lose their Linker Cores their bodies vanish without trace. So when we deal with things that either prevent magic linking or break it, and the Wolkenritter are magic creations, should they disappear? Their bodies arenít real but just a construct that acts like a real body, however cut the energy and they become dust, something real people donít suffer. So really this should make them lose their physical form. Then Vita says they are ďmore humanĒ but still their bodies donít change, so yeah, there is that but still doesnít explain what they are or how this tech affects them.
If I remember right in StrikerS, it was mentioned by Shamal that their bodies are becoming more and more human. They're no longer capable of recovering from any level of injury, and are entirely capable of being killed for good now, because they aren't really magical programs anymore.
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Old 2013-04-01, 10:38   Link #3177
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AMF weakens magic. Eclipse kills it. Think of a campfire... AMF would be a light rain. The fire can possibly keep going depending on strength, but difficult. Eclipse is hitting the fire with a concentrated extinguisher(deprives fire of oxygen). Thus, Signum can keep a fire going in AMF. She can't in Eclipse.
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Old 2013-04-01, 11:53   Link #3178
Akiyoshi
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If I remember right in StrikerS, it was mentioned by Shamal that their bodies are becoming more and more human. They're no longer capable of recovering from any level of injury, and are entirely capable of being killed for good now, because they aren't really magical programs anymore.
While most of what you say is true i don't remember Shamal saying at any point they'll aren't magical programs anymore. She just stated they're more human-like. And while they lost most of their cooler Wolverine-like powers they're still far more capable to survive injuries that would likely kill any normal human ...for several hours.
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Old 2013-04-01, 12:11   Link #3179
Keroko
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Case in point, Vita being stabbed through the chest yet still taking down dozens of stealthdroids and smashing the reactor.
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Old 2013-04-01, 16:05   Link #3180
Akiyoshi
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From a normal human standpoint is also quite impressive to be able to survive being cross sliced in the front torso, impalled, falling from several feet to the ground and bleed from all of those wounds for a good couple of hours till medical help comes.

Oh, and don't forget being able to recover from all of that to near athletic condition within barely more than two months.

Not as impressive as what they did in the past but still far beyond human resistance.
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