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Old 2013-04-02, 04:03   Link #461
speedyexpress48
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Keep in mind though, the Nanoha disks released in the US were pretty much some of the worst Western anime releases ever made; the dub was done with newbie/unexperienced voice actors (which resulted in horrible inconsistency through out all the episodes,) the whole set was marked up at $100-110 (that's a lot for something that looks like "magical girl fluff", and I think a whole host of other problems (stemming from the fact that Geneon was going down like a sinking ship) basically caused Seven Arcs to stop dealing with the North American market altogether.

Also, "long delays between anime seasons with a movie or two in between" do happen (even if the series' popularity suffers for it.) Just look at Shakugan No Shana.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
False dichotomy. Because, why can't you do both a movie and a series and make money off both. Dragon Ball does it. One Piece does it. Bleach did it. Fairy Tail does it.
Comparing Nanoha to a Shonen Jump production probably isn't a good idea...for one, two different audiences. Shonen Jump stuff don't depend on merchandise as nearly as much as late-night anime does; late-night anime depend on merchandising, and there's only going to be so many buyers with so much money. I don't even think Madoka Magica can pull a film and an ongoing series at once (Madoka Magica may be "mainstream" in the anime community, but outside of that, it's not mainstream at all.)
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Old 2013-04-02, 04:46   Link #462
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
If it was so popular and good, it would get a 4th season, though. Coming off the downturn of StrikerS, they probably allowed him to do a reboot of the first season to cash in on the rabid otaku fanboys that were left; that's a safe enough gesture.
Downturn? StrikerS was the best-selling Nanoha season of them all.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Really? You realize Dog Days is getting a third season, and that's nothing but catgirls getting their clothes shredded.
With good characters that for the majority get a good amount of development. It's amusing you hammer on Dog Days while it's really a series that helps prove your point.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
False dichotomy. Because, why can't you do both a movie and a series and make money off both. Dragon Ball does it. One Piece does it. Bleach did it. Fairy Tail does it.
Because those four have way higher budgets and can afford to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Bolded emphasis mine. This is probably the best proof to showcase why Nanoha has low popularity compared to other series. At least, not as popular as others might like to believe.
"steady viewership" means something completely different for a long-running series then it does a seasonal one. A long running series needs to constantly keep attention, a seasonal series can afford to fade into the background for a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Actually, an anime series can have near-movie quality... it's all in the budget. You saw the difference from S1 to A's, where it was obvious they got a higher budget. You've watched anime of varying quality, so I know you've seen ones with awesome animation and lots of action.
Having recently rewatched several episodes of A's, it doesn't come anywhere near the quality of the movies. To make an anime of the same level of quality as the movies, you need a really big budget.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
And think about that quality for a moment... A 12 ep series has about 6 hours of animation. A movie runs about 2 hours. So, for the same price as a 12 ep series, you can have a movie with 3x the quality. Dial that back to 2x the quality, and a movie comes out cheaper and more directly pays for itself.
This implies quality and time is a straight curve. It is not.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I couldn't guess as to how the competition for movie theaters lines up against TV timeslots. All I know is that a movie better pays for itself, then a series does; first with the theaters, and then in DVD/BD sales. And the movie DVDs typically go for the same price as a DVD box set of 12 episodes... so you spend less money to make the same on DVD/BD sales.
In the west, yes. Japanese prices tend to be more... absurd in this regard.

But you are right there is a higher return on movies if they are successful. Though that has to be balanced by the aforementioned costs first.
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Old 2013-04-02, 05:14   Link #463
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Oh, I don't mean that they have to sideline NanoFate or Fate. That's the problem with trying to have this conversation with you, because taking away even 30 seconds of Fate time is sidelining to you. I've said this many times already, Demi, and I'll say it again: I dont' care if Fate has the majority of screen, or if NanoFate tie the knot and go frolicking through the field every 10 ten minutes, as long as I get development of the secondary characters (or that someone of them come up to be mains, ya know, like other shows manage to do).

Because that's 90% of what you say, Kaijo. You can't go a couple days without claiming Fate and NanoFate have all the screen time. And you do care if Fate has the majority of screen time, because she doesn't in this movie, and you still think she has too much. If that's what you truly think now, then by the time you're done with Fate or NanoFate I think they will have truly been side lined.

There are other mains, they simply don't move passed their origin. Lest one of two things happen-- Nanoha and Fate really do get sidelined, or we have an over abundance of main characters. Fact of the matter is minor characters are the first to get cut when it comes to condensing a series down to half and turning it into a movie format.

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But, to you, focus on anyone else means less time for Fate.
Because you put too much emphasis on removing Fate and NanoFate scenes and not nearly as much on anything or anyone else..Which leads me to questioning your motive. Which again, leads me to being less agreeable.

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You don't understand that the pedo nature turns off normal people, even normal anime fans? S1 was a bad start, which means less people tuned into A's or bothered to buy the DVDs. I've lost count of the number of youtube reviewers who reviewed the first season, outright admitted that they heard the second was much better, and yet never got around to. At last count, that was... all of them.
I do, yet I think that has nothing to do with the poor sales Nanoha had in the west. Either way, I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at here. Honestly, compared to any of the previous series, the movies are far less fan-servicy. I have no clue why they opted for nipples in the henshin scene, but it's literally the only fanservice in the whole movie. While it was a constant theme in the other three seasons.

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And by the time of StrikerS, most of who were left were pedos who got damn upset that StrikerS took their lolis away. So they drifted off to other series.
That didn't stop Japan from loving it. Tsuzuki honestly has nothing to gain from trying to appeal to us. As it could very well hurt the appeal it has in Japan from doing so. They typically have different taste than us, if you haven't noticed.


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If it was so popular and good, it would get a 4th season, though. Coming off the downturn of StrikerS, they probably allowed him to do a reboot of the first season to cash in on the rabid otaku fanboys that were left; that's a safe enough gesture.
It's simple marketting. The movies have proven very profitable. And StrikerS honestly had nowhere left to go...Too many time skips, and manga are now ongoing and making virtually no progress. These movies are his way of moving onto greener pastures.


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Really? You realize Dog Days is getting a third season, and that's nothing but catgirls getting their clothes shredded. Male pandering is the surest way to get your series funded. Nanoha, pandering to mainly men instead of young girls like most MG shows, should have been damn successful, then, by your logic. It wasn't. Sailor Moon beats the pants off it in popularity, as much as I hate to admit it.
Are you saying that Nanoha should start pandering to little girls? Because I'm not following you otherwise. It's too late to change the targeted audience now. If he fails, not only would he damage his current fan base, but he wouldn't have a new one to fall back on. Nanoha is by far and wide the most profitable thing Tsuzuki has ever come across. You expect him to to take too many unnecessary risks.

Quote:
False dichotomy. Because, why can't you do both a movie and a series and make money off both. Dragon Ball does it. One Piece does it. Bleach did it. Fairy Tail does it.
Because otaku only have so much cash in their wallet. Perhaps one day he will do a series, but it makes little sense to do both at the same time. Of course, the Nanoha franchise can't compete with a long running shounen. That's not something even worth debating.


Quote:
Actually, an anime series can have near-movie quality... it's all in the budget. You saw the difference from S1 to A's, where it was obvious they got a higher budget. You've watched anime of varying quality, so I know you've seen ones with awesome animation and lots of action.
You would need one massive budget to make a Nanoha series look anywhere near as good as the movies look. The only benefit a series has over the movie in the first place is that it's cheaper to produce. It would be losing it's only advantage by investing so much money into turning a series into movie-quality.



Quote:
Taking out the unknown variable as far as competition goes, you can see how clearly a movie is more profitable for a studio than a series. So even if we think movie theater is more competitive, it still makes financial sense to concentrate on a movie, to gauge interest.
Bingo. Honestly, this is the whole point. The movie is more profitable.
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Old 2013-04-02, 06:44   Link #464
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The Nanoha franchise has always been a strange one when it comes to how it approaches new content.

It has two narratives - Original and Reboot.

For the original, you get one narrative, that starts as an anime, but switches to a manga (and fills in a lot of gaps with sound stages). But there's no adaptation here - Anime bits don't get a manga adaptation (to the best of my knowledge), and manga bits don't get anime adaptation. Nanoha fans are just expected to follow the continuing narrative from one medium (anime) to the next (manga) to the next (sound stages).

For the reboot, it's all animated movie, so far. The movie does have manga adaptations of it, though, IIRC.


Why the Nanoha franchise does things this way is anybody's guess. Sales aren't the reason though. StrikerS sold better than Nanoha A's which sold better than the original Nanoha. In other words, the anime just improves from one Nanoha show to the next when it comes to sales.


And Dog Days is what happens when you take Nanoha-caliber action scenes but remove the slightest ounce of suspense from them, since contrary to what Shirou Emiya says, ...

Spoiler for Dog Days spoiler:


Dog Days also ramps up the ecchi big-time compared to Nanoha. I'm pretty much with Kaijo on Dog Days, I suspect.
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Old 2013-04-02, 07:44   Link #465
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Dog Days is an example of a character driven story. There's no grand external plot going on, its all about the characters, what they do and how they change and grow.
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Old 2013-04-02, 08:36   Link #466
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Repyling to multiple people, so trying to trim for size. Let me know if I skipped something you'd like me to address.

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedyexpress48 View Post
Comparing Nanoha to a Shonen Jump production probably isn't a good idea...for one, two different audiences. Shonen Jump stuff don't depend on merchandise as nearly as much as late-night anime does; late-night anime depend on merchandising, and there's only going to be so many buyers with so much money. I don't even think Madoka Magica can pull a film and an ongoing series at once (Madoka Magica may be "mainstream" in the anime community, but outside of that, it's not mainstream at all.)
Nanoha is essentially a shonen MG show. Thus comparing to shonen isn't that far-fetched. But yes, shonen does rely on popularity, and thus you can tell it is popular because it gets movies and a series at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Downturn? StrikerS was the best-selling Nanoha season of them all.
Sure it wasn't selling more discs, because they needed more discs to contain 26 episodes? Regardless, it obviously wasn't selling well enough for a 4th season.

Quote:
With good characters that for the majority get a good amount of development. It's amusing you hammer on Dog Days while it's really a series that helps prove your point.
Ironically, yes, I do realize that Dogs Days has a lot of characters, and manages to share the screen time between all them for some development among all of them. In this respect, I do realize that Dog Days does it better than Nanoha (and above people who want Nanoha to consist of only two characters). But I don't pretend about the reason people are really watching.

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Because those four have way higher budgets and can afford to?
Do you think you get a higher budget because you are popular? Or because you are not popular? It's been a long time since I saw the beginning of Naruto or Bleach, so I won't comment too much on them (although they had a popular manga to gauge off of). But Fairy Tail was much like Nanoha's first season. There was plenty of stock footage and magic circles, and one character even had several stock footage magical girl-like transformation scenes. And then, magically, after 12 or 13 episodes, those mostly disappeared. Why? Budget got bigger when they realized it was popular, so they could afford to spend more. Much like A's.

So, I wouldn't discount Nanoha as being too dissimilar from those 4.

Quote:
"steady viewership" means something completely different for a long-running series then it does a seasonal one. A long running series needs to constantly keep attention, a seasonal series can afford to fade into the background for a while.
It still needs viewership when it airs, otherwise it doesn't air again. But not getting what you're saying by this. Gundam is also a seasonal one, and maintains a viewership and it's popularity.

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Having recently rewatched several episodes of A's, it doesn't come anywhere near the quality of the movies. To make an anime of the same level of quality as the movies, you need a really big budget.

This implies quality and time is a straight curve. It is not.
I was comparing the budget of A's to S1, not A's to the movies. As I said, if you have a budget for 6 hours of animation, yet spend it on 2 hours of animation instead, do you think you'll end up with higher or lower animation quality?

While your latter statement holds some truth, it is also folly to think there is no relation, either. If you double or triple the number of frames per second, you are going to generally get better quality. I was referring to the 6 hours of animation spent in 2 hours concept.

Quote:
But you are right there is a higher return on movies if they are successful. Though that has to be balanced by the aforementioned costs first.
Ultimately, Seven Arcs is a business. Like all businesses, it does what is profitable. Right now, a movie is profitable while a series isn't. You can only sell a series if you have enough people watching the advertisements on TV, so 100 fanboys ain't gonna cut it. However, you can put something on the big screen, and 100 fanboys will go see it 10 times. Easier to make your money on a movie, then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Because that's 90% of what you say, Kaijo. You can't go a couple days without claiming Fate and NanoFate have all the screen time. And you do care if Fate has the majority of screen time, because she doesn't in this movie, and you still think she has too much. If that's what you truly think now, then by the time you're done with Fate or NanoFate I think they will have truly been side lined.
No, I don't, Demi. This is NOT what I am saying at all. In fact, it is not about screentime at all... it's about development. You do need screentime to do that, but you can do a lot of development in a short period of time. To YOU, screentime is development. If I can showcase the same amount of NanoFate development in less screentime, that is still sidelining to you, and thus unacceptable. My changes would have the same amount of NanoFate development. Remember, what you want is fluff... which by it's nature is usually extremely light on development.

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There are other mains, they simply don't move passed their origin. Lest one of two things happen-- Nanoha and Fate really do get sidelined, or we have an over abundance of main characters. Fact of the matter is minor characters are the first to get cut when it comes to condensing a series down to half and turning it into a movie format.
And here is your circular logic. Nanoha and Fate are mains and thus deserve development. Minor characters don't deserve development because they are not mains. They could become mains if they got more focus and development, but they are minor characters so they don't deserve to. Thus, only Nanoha and Fate deserve development because they are the main characters.

Of course, your argument is really destroyed when you realize Nanoha doesn't get development. Only Fate does.

Quote:
Because you put too much emphasis on removing Fate and NanoFate scenes and not nearly as much on anything or anyone else..Which leads me to questioning your motive. Which again, leads me to being less agreeable.
I am reminded of Republicans wanting a flat tax, because on the surface, that seems fair. Yet failing to realize that, to someone making $10k a year, and thus below the poverty line, 10% of his income is $1k, which hits him harder because he has less. Meanwhile, a rich person making $10 mil a year, simply chucks $1 mil out in taxes and is still riding pretty.

Yes, NanoFate and Fate scenes got more cuts, because there are more of them. It is a simply matter of quantity. If I cut equal time from everyone, then people like Yuuno would simply disappear totally from the movie... which may be your intent. I know it would be for some. Some characters have less time. And I will restate that the A's movie is about Hayate and the Wolks, and thus their development is paramount, and can't be cut as much if we want to establish them.

Quote:
I do, yet I think that has nothing to do with the poor sales Nanoha had in the west. Either way, I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at here. Honestly, compared to any of the previous series, the movies are far less fan-servicy. I have no clue why they opted for nipples in the henshin scene, but it's literally the only fanservice in the whole movie. While it was a constant theme in the other three seasons.
The S1 had the shower scene, but Nanoha was surprisingly lacking in panty shots (there are really only a very few, barely noticable). So, the movies are actually a step above the series in fanservice, given the updated henshin sequences.

Quote:
It's simple marketting. The movies have proven very profitable. And StrikerS honestly had nowhere left to go...Too many time skips, and manga are now ongoing and making virtually no progress. These movies are his way of moving onto greener pastures.
The fact that you think there is nowhere to go after StrikerS, merely showcases your lack of imagination. Many fanfiction writers here have written great fics that came after StrikerS, so unless you want to call them all lacking in imagination... And the manga are making progress, but due to the once a month thing, it might not seem so. If only Nanoha was more popular, like some other series, then it might get a once a week release instead...

Quote:
Are you saying that Nanoha should start pandering to little girls? Because I'm not following you otherwise. It's too late to change the targeted audience now. If he fails, not only would he damage his current fan base, but he wouldn't have a new one to fall back on. Nanoha is by far and wide the most profitable thing Tsuzuki has ever come across. You expect him to to take too many unnecessary risks.
Any series, animated or otherwise, will bleed viewers. Thus, every good director knows they need to find ways to attract new viewers, so yes, things need to change. SG-1 and SG: Atlantis were great shows, but they were losing viewers. Thus, they made the choice to change the format with SG: Universe. Their gambled failed and they were ultimately cancelled, but they would have been dead anyway without that change.

Quote:
You would need one massive budget to make a Nanoha series look anywhere near as good as the movies look. The only benefit a series has over the movie in the first place is that it's cheaper to produce. It would be losing it's only advantage by investing so much money into turning a series into movie-quality.
See above, about a budget focusing on 2 hours of footage instead of 6. The movies probably still have a higher budget than the series, but not by much.
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Old 2013-04-02, 09:17   Link #467
Demi.
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post



No, I don't, Demi. This is NOT what I am saying at all. In fact, it is not about screentime at all... it's about development. You do need screentime to do that, but you can do a lot of development in a short period of time. To YOU, screentime is development. If I can showcase the same amount of NanoFate development in less screentime, that is still sidelining to you, and thus unacceptable. My changes would have the same amount of NanoFate development. Remember, what you want is fluff... which by it's nature is usually extremely light on development.
You're the one who is drawing me to that conclusion. If a character has screen time, then they could very easily use that time to develop. Just because their time isn't being used properly, that doesn't make it the fault of the character that is properly developed.

What I want is NanoFate development. I want that ever so subtle change at the end of the movie where Fate holds Nanohas hand for the very first time. And I want to feel like the events which eventually lead up to that scene were executed properly.

Quote:
And here is your circular logic. Nanoha and Fate are mains and thus deserve development. Minor characters don't deserve development because they are not mains. They could become mains if they got more focus and development, but they are minor characters so they don't deserve to. Thus, only Nanoha and Fate deserve development because they are the main characters.
I won't say they're undeserving of development, but not at the expense of the main characters. And Reinforce, Hayate and the Wolkenritter developed just fine.

Quote:
Of course, your argument is really destroyed when you realize Nanoha doesn't get development. Only Fate does.
And here comes your circular logic. Because Fate has the most development she has the most scenes that should get cut, despite not having any more screen time (probably less) than the other main. I'm sorry, but every character who has an abundant amount of screen time to work with, whether it be to develop the character or otherwise...is all on the same boat. If you want more Nanoha development you cut her own battle scenes to make room for that development. If you want Fate to have more action scenes... You cut from her development. With that being said, it is not Fate's screen time that deters Nanoha from developing, it is how Tsuzuki is using Nanoha with the time she does have.


Quote:
I am reminded of Republicans wanting a flat tax, because on the surface, that seems fair. Yet failing to realize that, to someone making $10k a year, and thus below the poverty line, 10% of his income is $1k, which hits him harder because he has less. Meanwhile, a rich person making $10 mil a year, simply chucks $1 mil out in taxes and is still riding pretty.
Ahh, so terribly blown out of proportion. That essentially personifies why we can't ever agree with anything.

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Yes, NanoFate and Fate scenes got more cuts, because there are more of them. It is a simply matter of quantity. If I cut equal time from everyone, then people like Yuuno would simply disappear totally from the movie... which may be your intent. I know it would be for some. Some characters have less time. And I will restate that the A's movie is about Hayate and the Wolks, and thus their development is paramount, and can't be cut as much if we want to establish them.
If NanoFate scenes are fluff, then I'll be damned if the Hayate/Wolkenritter family scenes are not also fluff. And I'm pretty certain there are more of those than NanoFate scenes. You could cut equal time from all of the main characters. That would be a fair start. If you really so desperately need the Chrono/Lindy development.


Quote:
The S1 had the shower scene, but Nanoha was surprisingly lacking in panty shots (there are really only a very few, barely noticable). So, the movies are actually a step above the series in fanservice, given the updated henshin sequences.
Panty shots. Everywhere. Fate wore a thong for heavens sake. The only thing the movie has on the series as far as fan-service goes, are those two little specks they decided to add on each breast. The series trumps it everywhere else.

Spoiler for I'll just leave this here...:



Quote:
The fact that you think there is nowhere to go after StrikerS, merely showcases your lack of imagination. Many fanfiction writers here have written great fics that came after StrikerS, so unless you want to call them all lacking in imagination... And the manga are making progress, but due to the once a month thing, it might not seem so. If only Nanoha was more popular, like some other series, then it might get a once a week release instead...
With those two manga running it would be far too confusing trying to tie in the 4th season with the manga's. Not to mention Vivid and Force are so different in terms of execution that it's ridiculous. Nanoha was in need of a reboot.

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Any series, animated or otherwise, will bleed viewers. Thus, every good director knows they need to find ways to attract new viewers, so yes, things need to change. SG-1 and SG: Atlantis were great shows, but they were losing viewers. Thus, they made the choice to change the format with SG: Universe. Their gambled failed and they were ultimately cancelled, but they would have been dead anyway without that change.
I think to this day, you still underestimate how well these movies are doing. Some viewers may "bleed" but it's replaced by an equal number of new fans with similar interest. Nanoha isn't losing viewers, it never has lost viewers. Otherwise, the sales between movie 1st and A's wouldn't be so identical. And each anime season wouldn't have sold more dvd's than the season that came before it.
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Old 2013-04-02, 09:38   Link #468
Keroko
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Trimming down the less-vital parts of the debate as well. Give me a holler if you think I skipped something important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Sure it wasn't selling more discs, because they needed more discs to contain 26 episodes? Regardless, it obviously wasn't selling well enough for a 4th season.
No, selling more per DVD. During the first week, the first StrikerS first DVD's had already outsold the A's DVD's that had already been on sale for two years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
It still needs viewership when it airs, otherwise it doesn't air again. But not getting what you're saying by this. Gundam is also a seasonal one, and maintains a viewership and it's popularity.
Yes, and you note there can be quite a lengthy pause between the various series, yes?

Same principle. Because it's seasonal it can afford to take breaks from airing another anime. Series that slap a "too be continued" on each episode have a lot less opening in this regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I was comparing the budget of A's to S1, not A's to the movies. As I said, if you have a budget for 6 hours of animation, yet spend it on 2 hours of animation instead, do you think you'll end up with higher or lower animation quality?

While your latter statement holds some truth, it is also folly to think there is no relation, either. If you double or triple the number of frames per second, you are going to generally get better quality. I was referring to the 6 hours of animation spent in 2 hours concept.
Sorry, the words "near movie quality" makes it rather hard to interpret as anything else to a comparison with the movies.

Now as for your question, depends. What are my deadlines? How much time in between episodes do I have? How big is the team I'm working with on either project? Are we outsourcing? How reliable is the company we're outsourcing to?

There's a large list of variables that differ between producing an anime series and a movie. This is just scratching the surface with what limited knowledge I have.

Take for example your last claim, "If you double or triple the number of frames per second, you are going to generally get better quality." Yes, this is true. But here's the catch: You have now also doubled or tripled your workload. Animation is not the same as shooting a movie. It is not as if a bigger, better camera will make the same scene recorded in the same amount of time better. Animation in more frames means you have to create more frames.

So say an anime is working with 12 frames of animation per second (this is very low quality, as you'll generally repeat the same frame twice to get the 24 fps, but it'll suit our "triple the fps" example), spread over six hours. That's 259.200 frames.

Now you're going to make a movie. Only two hours, but you will animate all 30 frames per second! This means you will have to animate... 216.000 frames.

Hmm. That's not nearly as much of a workload reduction, is it? Not to mention that in order to get a real quality increase (and this goes double for a movie) you will take far less animation shortcuts, which means that each frame requires more time than it would on a lower quality TV series.

Visual quality will definitely improve, but so does your workload, and thereby your costs.
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Old 2013-04-02, 10:03   Link #469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
You're the one who is drawing me to that conclusion. If a character has screen time, then they could very easily use that time to develop. Just because their time isn't being used properly, that doesn't make it the fault of the character that is properly developed.

What I want is NanoFate development. I want that ever so subtle change at the end of the movie where Fate holds Nanohas hand for the very first time. And I want to feel like the events which eventually lead up to that scene were executed properly.
Ah, the real truth. Before, you were just about Fate and said you didn't care about NanoFate so much. But we see this isn't the case.

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I won't say they're undeserving of development, but not at the expense of the main characters. And Reinforce, Hayate and the Wolkenritter developed just fine.
Quite simple then.. we make Chrono and Lindy main characters! Then we give equal time to them to develop as well! Perfect, thanks! ...that's exactly what we were endeavoring to do with our movie ruminations.

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And here comes your circular logic. Because Fate has the most development she has the most scenes that should get cut, despite not having any more screen time (probably less) than the other main. I'm sorry, but every character who has an abundant amount of screen time to work with, whether it be to develop the character or otherwise...is all on the same boat. If you want more Nanoha development you cut her own battle scenes to make room for that development. If you want Fate to have more action scenes... You cut from her development. With that being said, it is not Fate's screen time that deters Nanoha from developing, it is how Tsuzuki is using Nanoha with the time she does have.
*sigh* Yes, you have somewhat of a point, in that it depends on how someone uses the screentime they have, but then again, not really. After Fate arrives, Nanoha only has a few scenes by herself. She exists now, purely for Fate.

But how do you take away action scenes from Chrono to develop him as a character? He has exactly one: joining the gang in beating up on Cthulu, where he casts exactly one spell. So, you want us to cut his 10-15 seconds of action time, if those people who like Chrono, want to see him get some development?

Can you really not see how this attitude is unfair?

By the way, what happened to you charting the screentime each character has? If you don't in the next few days, I just might. Because...

Quote:
Ahh, so terribly blown out of proportion. That essentially personifies why we can't ever agree with anything.
So, explain why it is, then. Don't just make the accusation and walk away. The problem is quantity. Let me pull some numbers to make a point. Let's say Fate has 1.5 hours of screen time, and Chrono has 10 minutes of screen time. And I want to take 10 minutes away from Fate to give 10 minutes to Chrono. Overly simplified, since Fate would also get some develoment out of that 10 minutes, but we're simplifying.

In this scenario, Fate loses only 11% of her screentime, but Chrono's screen time doubles. So, hardly equal. Sure, we could argue for equalityof screentime, but the funny thing is, we aren't even arguing for that. We're like Oliver, asking for a bit more gruel to get enough nutrition, and all we hear in response is the Chef accusingly and angrily saying, "MORE!?"

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If NanoFate scenes are fluff, then I'll be damned if the Hayate/Wolkenritter family scenes are not also fluff. And I'm pretty certain there are more of those than NanoFate scenes. You could cut equal time from all of the main characters. That would be a fair start. If you really so desperately need the Chrono/Lindy development.
Because their fluff is actual development. They need to show how the Wolks become family with Hayate. It is their movie, more than Nanoha or Fate. But I know you're not worried, because I'm willing to bet that, after this movie, you consider Hayate and the Wolks minor characters now. Somehow, the antagonist of the first movie becomes forever a main, but the antagonists of the second movie move into secondary status. Why is that?

I'm curious now, though... what do you think of shows that have a larger main cast that they focus on? I mean, Natsu and Lucy are technically the main characters of Fairy Tail, but Grey and Erza get development. Hell, even minor characters like Levy and MIrajane get development. Hell, even more minor characters like Evergreen gets development! But, according to you, a show can only have a couple of main characters, so obviously all those other shows are doing something wrong.

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Panty shots. Everywhere. Fate wore a thong for heavens sake. The only thing the movie has on the series as far as fan-service goes, are those two little specks they decided to add on each breast. The series trumps it everywhere else.

Spoiler for I'll just leave this here...:
I said few, not absent. Also not noticable. Most shows with panty shots make it extremely obvious. Nanoha's are more hidden eggs that are only there for a very short time, or have other things in the scene that people will usually focus on.

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With those two manga running it would be far too confusing trying to tie in the 4th season with the manga's. Not to mention Vivid and Force are so different in terms of execution that it's ridiculous. Nanoha was in need of a reboot.
I didn't think it was in need of a reboot. I thought it was fine as is. But they didn't need to do 2 manga series; they could have easily done a 4th season. Instead, we got once a month manga rather than a 4th season, and somehow, you want to believe that has nothing to do with popularity. If Nanoha were still profitable as an anime series, it would have had a 4th by now. Especially considering Nanoha started as an anime series, whereas most other anime series are based off manga, so can fall back on manga.

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I think to this day, you still underestimate how well these movies are doing. Some viewers may "bleed" but it's replaced by an equal number of new fans with similar interest. Nanoha isn't losing viewers, it never has lost viewers. Otherwise, the sales between movie 1st and A's wouldn't be so identical. And each anime season wouldn't have sold more dvd's than the season that came before it.
If it was so profitable... why did the series stop?
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Old 2013-04-02, 10:13   Link #470
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
If it was so profitable... why did the series stop?
You're looking for answers you cannot find.

Nanoha, as a franchise, has become very big that it's highly self-sustaining, with the cash flow and fanbase to support various more 'niche' storytelling mediums, in side-story mangas, sound stages, etc. Even those are clearly profitable, though we can't be sure how much so.

There are a kind of value that is attached towards the 'mothership' of any franchise, which for Nanoha, are both the TV series and the movie, that you can't simply determine by constantly saturating the market with.

If you aren't confident that your next 'mothership' piece would be a high quality piece that is on par, if not better than your previous, you risk losing a the luster of the franchise, that can easily trickle down to other parts of the brand.

Even more so, if we want to make the assumption that Nanoha... in due time, will eventually move away from Nanoha & Fate, the undoubtedly most popular characters in the series.

The stories, from StrikerS onwards has had a focus on building up the next generation of characters, be it the Strikers in S3/SSX, the Force Trio or the ViviD King. Unless Tsuzuki wants to backpedal, his direction is clear and the franchise cannot be sustained by Nanoha and Fate forever.

Even the above is pure speculation. Quantifying business logic for things like Nanoha is hard.
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Old 2013-04-02, 11:02   Link #471
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
No, selling more per DVD. During the first week, the first StrikerS first DVD's had already outsold the A's DVD's that had already been on sale for two years.
If you think this is the case, then why did they stop making an anime series? Realize that DVD sales alone aren't an indicator, as MG shows are supported by general merch sales. You'd have to look at those. If those were in decline, then it might signal that the fanbase is shrinking and thus an anime series is no longer tenable.

In the states, there is a very definite number, the Nielson rating, that determines how much a show can charge advertisers for commercial time. SG: Universe was cancelled because the Nielson ratings dropped too low, and thus they couldn't get enough cash to sustain the show via advertising. I'd bet that something similar happens in Japan. Seven Arcs looked at the numbers, realized viewership and merch sales were dropping, and made the choice to reduce the series towards things that paid better.

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Yes, and you note there can be quite a lengthy pause between the various series, yes?

Same principle. Because it's seasonal it can afford to take breaks from airing another anime. Series that slap a "too be continued" on each episode have a lot less opening in this regard.
And yet StrikerS ended... 5 years ago? 6 years ago? If we haven't gotten another anime series by now, odds are we won't get one. Barring a total reboot like Sailor Moon is doing, complete with new VAs.

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Now as for your question, depends. What are my deadlines? How much time in between episodes do I have? How big is the team I'm working with on either project? Are we outsourcing? How reliable is the company we're outsourcing to?

There's a large list of variables that differ between producing an anime series and a movie. This is just scratching the surface with what limited knowledge I have.

Take for example your last claim, "If you double or triple the number of frames per second, you are going to generally get better quality." Yes, this is true. But here's the catch: You have now also doubled or tripled your workload. Animation is not the same as shooting a movie. It is not as if a bigger, better camera will make the same scene recorded in the same amount of time better. Animation in more frames means you have to create more frames.
No, you haven't. A studio will churn out 200,000 frames of animation regardless. Either you fit those into 6 hours of animation, or 2 hours. The studio still has churned out the same number of frames.

I'll agree to the general statement that costs go up with a movie, but that was never my argument. It was that a movie was more profitable because it gave bigger returns. But while you bring up other questions, we are left with one obvious logical point: Seven Arcs will do what is profitable. If an anime series was profitable, they'd do it. Especially given that Nanoha started as an anime series. They don't.

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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
You're looking for answers you cannot find.
Not 100%, no. But logic can narrow down reasons. And this is a forum, built for discussion, and a thread dedicated to discussing the franchise. So discuss we will.

Quote:
Nanoha, as a franchise, has become very big that it's highly self-sustaining, with the cash flow and fanbase to support various more 'niche' storytelling mediums, in side-story mangas, sound stages, etc. Even those are clearly profitable, though we can't be sure how much so.
Sound stages are dirt cheap (compared with anime). They don't have to make much money to be profitable.

Quote:
There are a kind of value that is attached towards the 'mothership' of any franchise, which for Nanoha, are both the TV series and the movie, that you can't simply determine by constantly saturating the market with.

If you aren't confident that your next 'mothership' piece would be a high quality piece that is on par, if not better than your previous, you risk losing a the luster of the franchise, that can easily trickle down to other parts of the brand.
Heh, familiar with Hollywood at all? Movie making is much like anime making. Unless the creator has firm creative control, they will milk anything for money. They'll churn out a sequel if the first one did well. They only stop making sequels when the last movie did horribly.

I repeat again: Seven Arcs is a business. If an anime series would be profitable, they'd do it. They aren't. I think trying to think upother reasons like "brand dilution" is really reaching, considering the brand is already spread in tons of directions, as you've noted. Not just sound stages, but manga, merch, movies, reboots, etc.

Quote:
The stories, from StrikerS onwards has had a focus on building up the next generation of characters, be it the Strikers in S3/SSX, the Force Trio or the ViviD King. Unless Tsuzuki wants to backpedal, his direction is clear and the franchise cannot be sustained by Nanoha and Fate forever.
It is clear he is looking to move things beyond Nanoha and Fate. He really likes expanding his universe, so he seems aware of the "bleeding fans" problem. Every series or franchise must change or die. You'll die if you don't, so you have to gamble.

Quote:
Even the above is pure speculation. Quantifying business logic for things like Nanoha is hard.
While there is some speculation in it, I think you underestimate what basic logic can do. Especially when you realize why a business is in business.
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Old 2013-04-02, 11:20   Link #472
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Ok, there's something that really needs to be pointed out here given this idea that no Nanoha TV series has been made since StrikerS since StrikerS was supposedly a commercial disappointment.

Here are pertinent sales figures from this handy-dandy sales figures thread right here on Anime Suki:


Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha *4,312 (5) (Seven Arcs/Geneon USA)
2005/01/26 *4,856 Vol. 1 (Three episodes up to Vol. 3)
2005/02/23 *5,701 Vol. 2
2005/03/24 *3,458 Vol. 3
2005/04/27 *3,432 Vol. 4 (Two episodes up to Vol.5)
2005/05/25 *4,113 Vol. 5


Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha A's 11,251 (6) (Seven Arcs/Geneon USA)
2006/01/25 11,657 Vol. 1 (Three episodes)
2006/02/22 11,539 Vol. 2 (Two episodes up to Vol. 6)
2006/03/24 11,472 Vol. 3
2006/04/26 10,730 Vol. 4
2006/05/24 10,856 Vol. 5
2006/06/21 11,251 Vol. 6


Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS 22,720 (9) (Seven Arcs)
2007/07/25 23,688 Vol. 1 (Three episodes up to Vol. 8)
2007/08/22 23,511 Vol. 2
2007/09/26 22,937 Vol. 3
2007/10/24 22,234 Vol. 4
2007/11/21 21,622 Vol. 5
2007/12/26 22,248 Vol. 6
2008/01/23 21,799 Vol. 7
2008/02/27 22,217 Vol. 8
2008/03/26 23,062 Vol. 9 (Two episodes)


The original Nanoha anime sold just over 4,000 DVDs per volume. That's roughly "breaking even" level. Nanoha A's sold over 11,000 DVDs per volume. That's rock solid success level (unless you're talking about an established titan like NGE or Haruhi). StrikerS sold over 22,000 DVDs per volume. That's MegaHit level, for just about any anime franchise.

Whatever you think of StrikerS quality in general, there's no question it was a major commercial hit.

Nanoha went from 4,000+ to 11,000+ to 22,000+ It's very impressive market share growth. I'm sure many successful entrepreneurs out there would be screaming "Why the hell aren't you making more?!" with a sales growth curve that's borderline exponential!


So yeah, it's a bit of mystery why there haven't been another Nanoha TV series since StrikerS. I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this. It's one of the great mysteries of anime for me.
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Old 2013-04-02, 11:27   Link #473
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"Biggest disappointment of the season 2006, Nanoha StrikerS."

Pay attention to blogs more often.

Course, it didn't help that Nanoha had to compete with Gurren Lagann AND Code Geass in the same year.
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Old 2013-04-02, 11:28   Link #474
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So yeah, it's a bit of mystery why there haven't been another Nanoha TV series since StrikerS. I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this. It's one of the great mysteries of anime for me.
Well, like I suggested earlier, I think they're testing the market right now. We have Vivid and Force, two manga with a vastly contrasting setting. One continuing down the road of the more mature girls and their magical administration and politics, and the other returning more to the series roots with little girls having magic fights.

The GoD comes along, with the materials quickly proving to be mighty popular, and out pops a sound stage dedicated to them and Innocent featuring them.

Greenlighting an anime series is no quick decision, I think they're testing to see which of the many routs sells the most before (and if) they decide to make another series.
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Old 2013-04-02, 11:37   Link #475
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
"Biggest disappointment of the season 2006, Nanoha StrikerS."

Pay attention to blogs more often.
Yeah, because we all know that anime producers in Japan care more about what some English-speaking anime bloggers write than they do about actual sales figures.

Seriously, Nanya....


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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Well, like I suggested earlier, I think they're testing the market right now. We have Vivid and Force, two manga with a vastly contrasting setting. One continuing down the road of the more mature girls and their magical administration and politics, and the other returning more to the series roots with little girls having magic fights.
Which of the two is selling better?

If this is a "test", then the answer to this question is rather important, imo.


Quote:
The GoD comes along, with the materials quickly proving to be mighty popular, and out pops a sound stage dedicated to them and Innocent featuring them.

Greenlighting an anime series is no quick decision, I think they're testing to see which of the many routs sells the most before (and if) they decide to make another series.
They created three TV anime in three years. And none in the six years after that.

That's a rather extreme course change when your commercial success just kept improving and improving.


Still, I thank you for your ideas.
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Old 2013-04-02, 11:43   Link #476
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And of course, sarcasm can't travel through the internet.

Seriously, Triple_R.
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Old 2013-04-02, 12:28   Link #477
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Which of the two is selling better?

If this is a "test", then the answer to this question is rather important, imo.
Last I checked? Vivid. Not sure about Innocent, haven't seen any sales data about that one yet.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
They created three TV anime in three years. And none in the six years after that.

That's a rather extreme course change when your commercial success just kept improving and improving.


Still, I thank you for your ideas.
Hmtrue, but in that time they created four new manga, three games, two theatrical movies with a third having been greenlit and several sound stages.

Their course may have changed, but they never stopped producing more Nanoha.

To make a very rough comparison, the star wars franchise had stopped making movies for 16 years before the Phantom Menace hit the screens, but the franchise itself had new books, games and comics coming out every year.
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Old 2013-04-02, 13:46   Link #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Ok, there's something that really needs to be pointed out here given this idea that no Nanoha TV series has been made since StrikerS since StrikerS was supposedly a commercial disappointment.

Here are pertinent sales figures from this handy-dandy sales figures thread right here on Anime Suki:


Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha *4,312 (5) (Seven Arcs/Geneon USA)
2005/01/26 *4,856 Vol. 1 (Three episodes up to Vol. 3)
2005/02/23 *5,701 Vol. 2
2005/03/24 *3,458 Vol. 3
2005/04/27 *3,432 Vol. 4 (Two episodes up to Vol.5)
2005/05/25 *4,113 Vol. 5


Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha A's 11,251 (6) (Seven Arcs/Geneon USA)
2006/01/25 11,657 Vol. 1 (Three episodes)
2006/02/22 11,539 Vol. 2 (Two episodes up to Vol. 6)
2006/03/24 11,472 Vol. 3
2006/04/26 10,730 Vol. 4
2006/05/24 10,856 Vol. 5
2006/06/21 11,251 Vol. 6


Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS 22,720 (9) (Seven Arcs)
2007/07/25 23,688 Vol. 1 (Three episodes up to Vol. 8)
2007/08/22 23,511 Vol. 2
2007/09/26 22,937 Vol. 3
2007/10/24 22,234 Vol. 4
2007/11/21 21,622 Vol. 5
2007/12/26 22,248 Vol. 6
2008/01/23 21,799 Vol. 7
2008/02/27 22,217 Vol. 8
2008/03/26 23,062 Vol. 9 (Two episodes)


The original Nanoha anime sold just over 4,000 DVDs per volume. That's roughly "breaking even" level. Nanoha A's sold over 11,000 DVDs per volume. That's rock solid success level (unless you're talking about an established titan like NGE or Haruhi). StrikerS sold over 22,000 DVDs per volume. That's MegaHit level, for just about any anime franchise.

Whatever you think of StrikerS quality in general, there's no question it was a major commercial hit.

Nanoha went from 4,000+ to 11,000+ to 22,000+ It's very impressive market share growth. I'm sure many successful entrepreneurs out there would be screaming "Why the hell aren't you making more?!" with a sales growth curve that's borderline exponential!


So yeah, it's a bit of mystery why there haven't been another Nanoha TV series since StrikerS. I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this. It's one of the great mysteries of anime for me.
You're missing the merch sales. As I've said before, MG series depend heavily upon merch to remain viable. That's not just DVDs. There are logical reasons why something isn't produced, and once you understand the industry, you understand why. Nanoha, as an anime series, is not commercially viable. If Seven Arcs could make money on it, they'd do it in a heartbeat.
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Old 2013-04-02, 13:52   Link #479
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Nanoha, as an anime series, is not commercially viable.
[citation needed]

Seriously, there's franchises with low merchandising that continued making series with lesser numbers.
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Old 2013-04-02, 13:55   Link #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
[citation needed]

Seriously, there's franchises with low merchandising that continued making series with lesser numbers.
Do you know how StrikerS merch compared to original Nanoha and Nanoha A's merch? If StrikerS merch sold substantially less than Nanoha/Nanoha A's merch, that would help to explain the whole "movie reboot" route they've taken.
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