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View Poll Results: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's - Rating
Perfect 10 14 23.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 16 26.67%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 20.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 5.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 8 13.33%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 3.33%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 5.00%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.67%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.67%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-04-02, 20:48   Link #1141
Dr. Casey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo
Literature 101. Or, to put it in a context that people here might better understand: Chekov's Gun. Chrono (and pretty much the whole Clyde backstory) is essentially a Chekov's gun that was cocked, and never fired. Quote from the trope page, with emphasis:

"If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there." —Trope Namer Anton Chekhov (From S. Shchukin, Memoirs. 1911.)

Again, emphasis added was mine. This is basic stuff. Well, maybe literature 102 or 201...
Honestly, this quote just makes Chekhov sound like Pretentious Literary Snob # 84,716 (in 1911 numbers; the PLS community is much larger now thanks to the internet and the fact that a century has passed). While I can understand the larger point, this particular examples he uses just sounds... fussy. "You want to include a detail that doesn't directly impact the plot? Nope, can't do it. You might enjoy the detail's inclusion for whatever reason, and it's sincerely doubtful that anyone without a stick wedged firmly up their ass (as I clearly do, shame surgeries weren't advanced enough in 1911 to remove it) will even remotely care... but I, an enlightened Pretentious Literary Snob, deem it objectively bad writing and therefore you are forbidden from adding that tiny minutiae to the story. You might disagree, but your opinion means nothing because you are not an Expert (tm) like I."

Christ, I am so glad that I just write for my own pleasure and don't interact with any sort of writing community. Their hardassed rules and joyless, robotic attitudes take all the fun out of writing.

Last edited by Dr. Casey; 2013-04-02 at 21:03.
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Old 2013-04-02, 21:01   Link #1142
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Actually, Casey, I find that the "Literary Snob" as you call him is quite right.

Besides, it's actually a lot of fun to put a plot point in and later use it.

It also falls into the "Law of Conservation of Detail".

If you don't need a point, don't bring it up, outside of describing the setting. If you're describing a village as you look around, it doesn't need to have important details, just general ones.

However, if you bring up something like... Oh say "Keepsake ring" that the hero got from his mother before he died.

You damn well KNOW that's going to play a role in the story somewhere and if it doesn't, why would you bring it up.

So, as someone who DOES write for pleasure and fun, the Gunman and Conservation of Detail rules are two rules that I try to abide by completely.
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Old 2013-04-02, 21:42   Link #1143
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I agree that there's such a thing as excess of detail, but I don't think that everything must contribute directly to the plot. There should be a reason for including everything, but that reason doesn't have to be the main storyline. To use your example of the keepsake ring, I think that simply fleshing out the protagonist's past and character is reason enough to include it.

My last post was just symptomatic of a long-term resentment against writing communities in general, really. (I haven't read the Nanoha Fanfiction thread much, so this post is just speaking in general.) The extreme hard-on for 'constructive criticism' that results in a complete lack of warmth because people focus obsessively on being critical because you're just a soft faggot if you don't go for the jugular. The concept of an editor removing things from my story because obviously his opinion is worth so much more than mine. The extremist black-and-white opinions where anything that isn't 'high literature' obviously has no artistic merit at all. The rigid, inflexible viewpoints towards what constitutes 'good' and 'bad' writing. The ultimate rule of writing - and anything else in the world for that matter - is 'If it works, it works.' There are countless examples throughout fiction, I'm sure, of a plot point or idea working despite it going against the common wisdom of what it and isn't good writing. But so many people act as though the things so-called experts claim are absolute truths that can never be wrong, when in reality things should be judged on a case-by-case basis.

There's just so many things about the world of professional writing, and amateur writing communities, that make me livid; to the point where I can't help but think whenever I'm masochistic enough to browse a writing community, "Hahaha, I keep the stories I write on my hard drive and nobody will ever see them. I write whatever I want, even it goes against what your gods experts say, and there's not a thing you can do about it. Ain't a single one of my darlings being killed. Eat shit, fuckers." Yeah, that's petty, but I'm a petty person sometimes.

(And I stress again that none of this is aimed at anyone here; I don't have much interest in fanfiction and have scarcely checked out that thread, though from what I can gather you guys are warmer and more supportive and reasonable than a lot of writing communities. You seem like a good group of guys much better than the norm. I'm just speaking of 'critics' and writing communities in general, who have a long history of getting on my nerves badly from being excessively harsh and closedminded, wheras I strive for being somewhat critical and honest but still supportive.)
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Old 2013-04-02, 21:49   Link #1144
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My thought is this when it comes to writing...

If you include details, use them.

Even if it's just "there's a gun on the wall" and two seconds later, the gun explodes, killing 3 people. (Extreme example, but , just a point)

Most of my criticism is towards how plot details and character development is handled.

So long as it's handled properly, that is, characters get screen time and development, plot gets fleshed out, and side-plots get resolved in a way that's not D.E.M., then I don't mind so much.

Chrono's side-story really wasn't done properly, at all. It should have been handled much better than it was.
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Old 2013-04-02, 22:14   Link #1145
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I can definitely understand where someone who's a fan of Chrono would be disappointed with his role in the movie; he's the sexiest man in the Time Space Administration Bureau a very cool guy. My brain isn't wired quite the same as that of most critics (or most people in general, really, seeing as I've had a stroke ), but unresolved character threads is something that even I pick up on. It just didn't bother me here because I was in an exceptionally good mood while watching the movie for various reasons, and... well, I don't expect all that much from anime movies on a storytelling front to begin with. They are generally, and have been since eons long long ago, rushed stories with much of the cast only making token "Hey, I still exist" appearances.

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Even if it's just "there's a gun on the wall" and two seconds later, the gun explodes, killing 3 people. (Extreme example, but , just a point)
You're silly.
I've never read it, but I really should get this book called 'Atlana Nights'... there was this publishing company in the '90s and early 2000s that used to publish any story submitted to them no matter how bad, to the poinit where some began suspecting that the company never even read the novels they published. To test their theory, this group of a few friends wrote an intentionally terrible novel and submitted it to the company. There's plot holes and inconsistent characterization all over the place (one character dies and comes back later without explanation, another changes his age and birthday numerous times), one chapter is repeated later in the story word-for-word, one chapter is random gibberish created entirely by a random text generator program... Sounds hilarious.
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Old 2013-04-03, 02:44   Link #1146
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Here's the thing - Lindy and Chrono's background nicely dovetails into the Book of Darkness main plot. Yes, I agree. But it's not like the Book of Darkness main plot is depended on developing that connection to its fullest. It would be nice, sure. It's something worth wanting. The lack of it is worth criticizing in a "missed opportunity" way. But it's not like the plot falls apart without it.
.... You do realize this is the same logic that people are using to justify cutting out some of the less relevant Fate scenes, right?
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Old 2013-04-03, 02:57   Link #1147
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.... You do realize this is the same logic that people are using to justify cutting out some of the less relevant Fate scenes, right?
Yes, but Kaijo has put a higher emphasis on the plot than pretty much anybody else on this thread. "For the plot!" has hardly been the sole, or even necessarily the main, reason that Demi. and myself have used for defending the Fate and NanoFate scenes of this movie.


And, you know, I've come up with ways to save enough time to give Kaijo a good Chrono/Lindy gravesite scene. Ways that don't involve cutting Nanoha, Fate, or NanoFate screentime to an extent that an awful lot of Nanoha fans would find highly displeasing. So why are we still arguing this, Keroko? Isn't this "win-win"? If "For the plot!" is truly Kaijo's only concern, then aren't we done here?

Unless there is a real bias against Fate and NanoFate coming from certain people on this thread, of course... Unless there is a desire to find a nice and objective-sounding pretext to cut it out of the movie because a tiny minority simply dislikes it and can't stand a couple young girls having innocent crushes on each other... But hopefully that's not the case.
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Old 2013-04-03, 03:08   Link #1148
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*shrug* Not really. The only Fate scene I really have any beef with is the Lotus Eater Dream. And while I would personally cut the Lotus Eater Dream scene, I know that from a marketing point of view cutting that scene is a no-go. Too many fans loved that scene, and I wouldn't be surprised if some fans went to see that movie just for that scene alone.
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Old 2013-04-03, 03:22   Link #1149
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The thing that most people seem to overlook is that Fate lost a considerable amount of fighting to make room for the dream scene. She doesn't have the best of both worlds...So even if you think the scene was unnecessary, it did cost her screen time in other areas.

Though I admit that did hurt Signum in the process. Since Signum lost the same fight time yet didn't really gain anything in return.
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Old 2013-04-03, 03:26   Link #1150
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
The thing that most people seem to overlook is that Fate lost a considerable amount of fighting to make room for the dream scene. She doesn't have the best of both worlds...So even if you think the scene was unnecessary, it did cost her screen time in other areas.
That's true. Fate vs. Signum felt more rushed here than it did in the original Nanoha A's TV series.

I get the impression that the Nanoha producers have concluded that Fate fans mostly want character-building scenes for their girl while Nanoha (the character) fans mostly want action scenes for their girl. And so that's the approach the movie took - Nanoha gets more pure action than anybody else, and by a fairly large margin I think. Fate sacrifices some action for more characterization focus.

In the end, it seems "fair" to me (at least when it comes to just evaluating the two main protagonists). And truthfully, the Nanoha producers are probably right in their conclusions here.
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Old 2013-04-03, 04:05   Link #1151
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And, you know, I've come up with ways to save enough time to give Kaijo a good Chrono/Lindy gravesite scene.
But why is that the only scene that they should get for dealing with the BoD problems they have?

Surely you don't think that's enough, just THAT one scene.
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Old 2013-04-03, 04:09   Link #1152
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But why is that the only scene that they should get for dealing with the BoD problems they have?

Surely you don't think that's enough, just THAT one scene.
I'd be fine with getting them more involved in the action scenes. In fact, my biggest disappointment with the movie is that they teased at a Lindy action scene only to not have her throw a single attack. That was a horrible tease.

In any event, Nanya, they already had some scenes dealing with it. Kaijo's desire for closure makes sense to me, because yeah, a short 10 to 20 second bit in what's basically an epilogue montage is not exactly effective closure. But it's not like Chrono/Lindy's personal issues with the Book of Darkness weren't developed during the movie. Chrono's decision to not tell his mother about it, the intensity in Chrono's voice when questioning Yuuno on the Book of Darkness, the flashback scene dealing with the death of Chrono's father, the brief bit between Lindy and Signum, the way Chrono took charge in the final action scene, etc... The movie did spend some time on this. It was pretty subtle, and it wasn't spoon-fed to people, but it was there. But it admittedly didn't wrap it up as well as it should.
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Old 2013-04-03, 04:27   Link #1153
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Also, you nay-sayers better hope that Fate makes up lost ground near the end, 'cause 40 minutes in and Nanoha has a sizable screen time lead.
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Old 2013-04-03, 04:30   Link #1154
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Also, you nay-sayers better hope that Fate makes up lost ground near the end, 'cause 40 minutes in and Nanoha has a sizable screen time lead.
Wanna bet that Fate makes up lost ground around the time that Lindy and Arf start showing up?
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Old 2013-04-03, 04:48   Link #1155
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The thing that most people seem to overlook is that Fate lost a considerable amount of fighting to make room for the dream scene. She doesn't have the best of both worlds...So even if you think the scene was unnecessary, it did cost her screen time in other areas.

Though I admit that did hurt Signum in the process. Since Signum lost the same fight time yet didn't really gain anything in return.
Mreh, I would have cut down on Nanoha fighting time as well if it could give her some movie-original character growth.
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Old 2013-04-03, 04:58   Link #1156
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As would I, the fight scenes were never why I liked Fate in the first place, so I gladly sacrifice those for the dream scene.

Does not seem like Tsuzuki has the same mindset when it comes to Nanoha, though. The series does partly sell for nice explosions...And you can't really beat Nanohas beam spam. But while going through the movie and charting Nanoha and Fate's screen time, I do see some non-battle scenes with Nanoha that could be scrapped and replaced with character development for her.
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Old 2013-04-03, 04:59   Link #1157
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
In any event, Nanya, they already had some scenes dealing with it. Kaijo's desire for closure makes sense to me, because yeah, a short 10 to 20 second bit in what's basically an epilogue montage is not exactly effective closure. But it's not like Chrono/Lindy's personal issues with the Book of Darkness weren't developed during the movie. Chrono's decision to not tell his mother about it, the intensity in Chrono's voice when questioning Yuuno on the Book of Darkness, the flashback scene dealing with the death of Chrono's father, the brief bit between Lindy and Signum, the way Chrono took charge in the final action scene, etc... The movie did spend some time on this. It was pretty subtle, and it wasn't spoon-fed to people, but it was there. But it admittedly didn't wrap it up as well as it should.
I... Gotta say, Triple_R, that's REALLY stretching it for the most part. While I can see some of it, it's still stretching to get to that conclusion.
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Old 2013-04-03, 08:37   Link #1158
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Nobody said that Chrono and Lindy were "unwanted". And nobody said they didn't deserve character development at all.
What I keep hearing is: They are side/secondary/supporting characters, and thus don't need development. To me, that sounds like shuffling them off to the side because of an arbitrary decision to not give them any development. Maybe you don't feel that way, but Demi keeps insisting that they aren't main characters, and thus don't deserve development.

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But with a cast this size, sometimes supporting characters aren't always going to get as much focus as you want.
See? You are making the same argument. They are supporting characters, and so don't get development. When the truth of the matter is, they could be moved to mains, or still get development even as supporting cast. It's called fleshing out your characters to being real people. Otherwise, your "mains" are simply interacting in a world of cardboard cutouts. Is that what you want?

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I mean, in most shows that I liked, I can nonetheless think of some supporting cast characters I would have liked to have seen more from. It's a fault, sure, but it's nothing worth days and days and days of debate over. IMO.
Let's turn this around, use your exact words, except add to say that Fate is a supporting character, and thus has her scenes cut and any development gone. Would you still be, "Eh, it's a fault, but nothing to debate over."

Except the fact that you ARE debating, shows us all something. You DO care if your favorite character(s) are maligned... and yet somehow can't graps that other people have other favorite characters and relationships, and would feel exactly like you if NanoFate got maligned.

I think that's what is so amusing about all this. You loudly protest that you wouldn't feel the same way... all the while protesting about the possibility of doing to Fate what was done to Chrono: remove development.

Quote:
Here's the thing - Lindy and Chrono's background nicely dovetails into the Book of Darkness main plot. Yes, I agree. But it's not like the Book of Darkness main plot is depended on developing that connection to its fullest. It would be nice, sure. It's something worth wanting. The lack of it is worth criticizing in a "missed opportunity" way. But it's not like the plot falls apart without it.
And honestly, that is why, in frustration, I eventually suggested that we remove Clyde and the Harleown connection totally. Rather than give us this half-ass inbetween that brings it up, but never resolves it.

Quote:
Personally, I'd shave off a half a minute here (previous movie flashbacks and Nanoha running), a minute or so there (transformation scenes cut in half), and a bit more here and there, and eventually scrounge up 3 to 4 minutes for your emotional grave site scene. Yes, it would be a good scene.
It isn't quite just the grave scene. I want a Chrono dream scene where he confronts his demons and emotional trauma. I want for Chrono, what Fate got. Fate's dream, while nice for her development as a character, wasn't as linked to the plot. Chrono's would have been. And I even showcased how it could still bring Fate some development.

Some people REALLY hate Fate, though, because they don't want to see her get any new kind of development with any other characters.

Chrono is still an emotionall-stunted boy. Unless they plan to address it in the 3rd movie (perhaps by having Chrono act really cold toward the Wolks), then it is a plot thread introduced, and not meaningfully resolved.
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Old 2013-04-03, 08:38   Link #1159
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Copycat!! Hehe, just kidding~
At least call it "inspired"!

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
*shrug* Not really. The only Fate scene I really have any beef with is the Lotus Eater Dream. And while I would personally cut the Lotus Eater Dream scene, I know that from a marketing point of view cutting that scene is a no-go. Too many fans loved that scene, and I wouldn't be surprised if some fans went to see that movie just for that scene alone.
You could call me on that one. Not that I saw the movie for this scene alone, but I always thought it was one of the best Fate scenes, pretty much because it gives her some kind of closure in regard of her mother and her "original".
Or rather a confirmation that she is over Precia.

But what I realised reading here about Chrono/Lindy development was, that I somehow missed the Lindy/Fate development. We had some talk with Lindy and Arf about the topic, at the very beginning, stating she is now the legal guardian of Fate and Arf and later a scene with Lindy telling Fate about the BoD and Clyde... but that's pretty much it.
Maybe Fate's not going to be "T. Harlaown" in the movie continuity (or it's somethign for the 3rd movie)
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Old 2013-04-03, 09:17   Link #1160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Honestly, this quote just makes Chekhov sound like Pretentious Literary Snob # 84,716 (in 1911 numbers; the PLS community is much larger now thanks to the internet and the fact that a century has passed). While I can understand the larger point, this particular examples he uses just sounds... fussy. "You want to include a detail that doesn't directly impact the plot? Nope, can't do it. You might enjoy the detail's inclusion for whatever reason, and it's sincerely doubtful that anyone without a stick wedged firmly up their ass (as I clearly do, shame surgeries weren't advanced enough in 1911 to remove it) will even remotely care... but I, an enlightened Pretentious Literary Snob, deem it objectively bad writing and therefore you are forbidden from adding that tiny minutiae to the story. You might disagree, but your opinion means nothing because you are not an Expert (tm) like I."

Christ, I am so glad that I just write for my own pleasure and don't interact with any sort of writing community. Their hardassed rules and joyless, robotic attitudes take all the fun out of writing.
Ever hear of literary terms like foreshadowing? Metaphors? Allegory?

You may think someone who uses such things is a "literary snob" but there is a larger point being made. Essentially, he's talking about "don't introduce a plot device or a plot thread, and then fail to follow up on it." For instance, in a book, there is an early scene where someone is loading up a gun and chuckling to themselves, talking about how everything will end. And then... nothing. That person or scene is never really referenced again. Or if the person shows up, they seem normal, and the gun or their darker feelings are never addressed.

I'm sure you'd wonder, "Wait... what was the purpose of that scene? Why did he introduce it if he never followed up on it?" *That* is what that quote is referring to: plot threads that are never followed up on, or insufficiently followed up on.

They are the difference between "Dick and Jane," and "To Kill A Mockingbird." If you are satisfied with Dick and Jane-level books, knock yourself out. But if you want to go higher, it requires knowledge of literary devices, and how to incorporate them.

With regards to Chrono/Lindy/Clyde, my thought is: "Either fire the gun, or remove it."
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