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Old 2013-04-03, 16:05   Link #661
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I don't have any evidence to paint him one way or another, and I don't mean to push that scenario as if it's the absolute truth. It's just something I wonder about. Kim Jong Il may have traveled to other nations, but he never really lived outside of North Korea (as far as world records indicate). In many ways it's not surprising that he continued to push North Korea more or less in the same direction as it was previously. But Kim Jong Un is different. He lived and studied abroad, in a Western country (countries?).

Granted, experience living abroad doesn't necessarily mean that he'll want to change North Korea. There have been plenty of Muslim extremists who lived in the United States of America for years, only to continue claiming that they desire to impose Sharia law over the entire world. But you have to wonder... if Jong Un really did want to make a change, how could he do it?
It'd be a nice thought, but I don't know. I recall reading about an African warlord who was educated in the US as well, can't recall his name, but I don't know if that exposure really changes how these people think.

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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Because Japan happened to be the first actual country to give a damn about the island. That goes a long way.
Well, there were indigenous inhabitants, with some remains showing occupation as long as 20,000 years back... I've also read they may have been the ancestors of the other Austonesian groups.

Though by now, I believe there has been much genetic admixture and you wouldn't find any 'pure' Taiwanese aborigines.

Also, I thought Europeans were the first to really play an active colonial presence on the island?

As for who has a 'right' to the island, I don't have any opinion beyond the people already living there... much like in the US, I sympathize with the indigenous population, but what's done is done. I do think, from my outside perspective, it should remain its own country and drop the Chinese rhetoric.
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Old 2013-04-03, 16:17   Link #662
Sumeragi
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Well, my focus is on why Taiwan might be more pro-Japanese than pro-Chinese.
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Old 2013-04-03, 16:21   Link #663
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Old 2013-04-03, 17:19   Link #664
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Do you have any source that indicates that this is what is happening, rather than the current employees (who'd I'd imagine would be mainly managers) opting to stay in order to keep things running?


This would all be a rather convoluted attempt at hostage taking honestly. And I don't think that is what's going on.
The capitalists will sell us the ropes to hang them- Lenin.

Just saying.
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Old 2013-04-03, 17:30   Link #665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRW View Post
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
NK forgot to include all of US army's that may flood their land after the declaration of war.....

Quote:
Long jagged coastline.....
Paratroopers?

Quote:
...facilities underground
Plug them holes!

Quote:
Closes proximity....
That's easier to locate targets and saves ammunition...

Quote:
NK builds its own weapons
..and the raw materials are from?

Quote:
Rugged terrain
Kim: How about our tanks you dummies?!

Quote:
shoulder launched anti missile
wait..RPG? No, the Nodong?
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Old 2013-04-03, 17:48   Link #666
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Yes? Hahahaha.. no, I kid. Oh dear, that was a good laugh.
Actually, the problem of Chinese regionalism could be potentially rather serious if dealt with improperly. I think that it is a mistake to think of China in monolithic terms, that is, to try to get everyone in the country to conform at all costs. If policymakers don't recognize differences and give leeway where leeway is due, there will be blowback. Things like banning Cantonese from TV is Guangdong is just asking for trouble.

Quote:
As populations get more and more mobile and technology and transferable skills make populations and workforces more mobile .. I wonder at what point to national boundaries become more porous? Maybe because I'm Canadian, but depending on opportunities available, I can work pretty much anywhere in the world. I can move my capital and do what I want. Canada just happens to be awesome. At some point you can't govern over people that don't want to be governed .. and sometimes even if people don't want you to govern them or group them up, it makes sense to "manage" due to geographic, cultural or economic to manage groups as .. well, "a group"
Yes, but this is still only applicable to affluent members of the global society. Billions of people are still confined to the home nations if not their home villages. And as resources for transportation become more difficult to come by, it may make more sense to stay put, or only move relatively shorter distances. Though admittedly I don't know what kind of new tech is being developed to get around scarcity issues.

Quote:
As for sino-ethnic identities -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...roups_in_China

There's a lot more subdivisions to those tribal and ethnic identities. I recall an academic paper written .. wow, nearly a decade ago that dived into the construction of these identities and how frankly much of the categorization is arbitrary. Much of the rural countryside population do not ascribe to these officially recognized identities..
There are a lot of Chinese who are not technically Han but you can't tell the difference and in many cases even they themselves can't. A friend of mine is half-Hui but for all practical purposes she's completely Chinese. It's sort of ridiculous. The idea of a "Han race" is superfluous and even limiting once you have the conception of "Chinese".
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Old 2013-04-03, 17:55   Link #667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post

There are a lot of Chinese who are not technically Han but you can't tell the difference and in many cases even they themselves can't. A friend of mine is half-Hui but for all practical purposes she's completely Chinese. It's sort of ridiculous. The idea of a "Han race" is superfluous and even limiting once you have the conception of "Chinese".
there is no such thing as a "Han" race. The original term was given to the people living in China during the Han Dynasty by the tribes on the border. Being "Han" and Chinese is more about cultural then genetics.
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Old 2013-04-03, 17:59   Link #668
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
there is no such thing as a "Han" race. The original term was given to the people living in China during the Han Dynasty by the tribes on the border. Being "Han" and Chinese is more about cultural then genetics.
My point exactly. But officially if you are Chinese the government has your "race" on file and about 90% of Chinese get the Han label.
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Old 2013-04-03, 18:03   Link #669
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Paratroopers?
Useless in the deepness of the mountains.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Plug them holes!
You know if that hole is an actual hole or a dummy?


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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
That's easier to locate targets and saves ammunition...
Conventional MAD at its finest.


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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
.and the raw materials are from?
Northern Korea practically fed the Japanese war machine, and it's still feeding the KPA. Lots of resources up there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Kim: How about our tanks you dummies?!
Korean tanks from both sides are designed to fight in the rugged terrain.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
wait..RPG? No, the Nodong?
SA-18/16s.




This is why having unknowledgeable civilians discuss war is pointless.
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Old 2013-04-03, 18:10   Link #670
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So how would the KPA actually do against an invasion then?
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Old 2013-04-03, 18:12   Link #671
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Korea is still Korea. Be it 1953 or 2013.
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Old 2013-04-03, 18:28   Link #672
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
SA-18/16s.
Sorry to ask bu, would they be a efficient asset for North Korea? After al they are MANPADS with all the limitation than they have, a serois threats for helicopters but what about modern warplace, did someone took lesson from what happen to the USSR in Afgnanistan ?
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Old 2013-04-03, 18:57   Link #673
Sumeragi
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Two links and a C&P:

Bluffer's guide: Fortress North Korea

This Is What Air War Over North Korea Would Look Like



What do North Korea's air defenses look like?


Quote:
With the U.S. flying B-2 stealth bombers, F-22 Raptor stealth fighters, and B-52 bombers over the Korean Peninsula, we thought we'd give you a quick run-down on the air defenses these jets could face if the Korean War ever went into Round Two.

Sure, North Korea is said to have one of the densest air defense networks on Earth. But it's largely made up of 1950s-, ‘60s-, and ‘70s-vintage Soviet-designed missiles and radars -- the type of weapons that the U.S. military has been working on defeating for decades via a combination of radar jamming, anti-radar missiles, and stealth technology. In fact, the B-2 and F-22 were designed in the 1980s and 1990s specifically to evade such defenses, and the ancient B-52s could simply fire AGM-86 cruise missiles at North Korea from well beyond the range of the country's air defenses.

Let's take a look at the missiles in the North's air defense system that have claimed U.S. fighters in conflicts around the globe since 1990. (Keep in mind that hundreds of these missiles have been fired at U.S. forces in the last 23 years with only a handful of losses.) All of these systems are of Soviet origin -- some were actually built in the USSR and others were license-made in North Korea. (Note, for this post we're not even looking at the radars, antiaicraft guns and some of the older shoulder-fired missiles the North Koreans have)

SA-2 Guideline: The SA-2 is famous for downing Gary Powers' U-2 spy plane over Russia in 1960, and it would go on to claim dozens of U.S. planes during the Vietnam War. North Korea may (may is the key word there) have up to 1,950 of these missiles. Although old, Iraqi SA-2s did manage to take out a U.S. Navy F-14A+ and an F-15E Strike Eagle during the 1991 Gulf War. The SA-2 was adopted by militaries around the globe during the Cold War and has a range of 28 miles and a maximum altitude of 28,000 feet. Even with upgrades, these missiles won't be too effective against American planes.

SA-6 Gainful: There are unconfirmed reports that the North has an unknown number of these missiles. The SA-6 is sometimes nicknamed "the three fingers of death" because it has three missiles laid out next to each other on the launcher. The SA-6 is also a 1960s-vintage design (in service since the 1970s) that can be defeated relatively easily with modern jamming and missiles that lock onto the radar beams emitted by many surface-to-air missile batteries. Still, an SA-6 shot down a U.S. Air Force F-16 over Iraq in 1991 and another F-16 over Bosnia in 1996. However, some accounts claim that, during the Kosovo air war of 1999, Yugoslav forces fired 477 SA-6s without a single kill.

SA-3 Goa: This is another Soviet-designed missile from the 1960s that has taken down a handful of modern U.S. fighters. The North is said to have up to 32 batteries of these missiles with at least six sites -- equipped with concrete bunkers to protect the missiles and their radar -- protecting Pyongyang (as of 2010, anyway). An SA-3 shot down a U.S. F-16 over Iraq in 1991. During the Kosovo war, a Yugoslav army SA-3 famously scored history's only kill against a stealth jet when its crew got lucky and spotted a U.S. Air Force F-117 Night Hawk stealth fighter while the jet's bomb-bay doors were open, briefly ruining the jet's stealthy shape. (It didn't help that the F-117s had flown the same routes on their attack runs so many times that the defenders could predict where they would be.) Later that year, another Yugoslav SA-3 shot down a U.S. F-16 over Serbia.

SA-13 Gopher: This is a mobile, low-altitude, heat-seeking missile system designed in the 1970s to protect Soviet ground forces from close-air support runs by Western jets. SA-13s shot down two U.S. Air Force A-10 Warthogs during the 1991 Gulf War. (Again, there are only unconfirmed reports the North has these.) Keep in mind that the A-10 flies low and slow while hunting ground targets, making it exactly the type of plane the SA-13 is meant to counter. (The SA-13 reportedly hit a total of 27 coalition jets during the Gulf War, downing 14, but besides the A-10s those jets were older, Vietnam War-vintage planes.)

SA-16 Gimlets: The North Koreans reportedly have hundreds of these 1980s-vintage, shoulder-fired, heat-seeking missiles, which like the SA-3s are meant to protect ground troops from low-level attacks. Iraqi forces downed three A-10 Warthogs during the Gulf War using Gimlets. (The SA-16 has evolved into the SA-24 Grinch, one of the most feared shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles.)

Finally, here are a few systems North Korea has -- or may have -- that haven't downed U.S. jets but that are still worth noting.

The SA-4 Ganef: This is a fierce-looking, mobile system from the 1960s meant to shoot down high-flying bombers. The SA-4 has a range of about 34 miles and can reportedly reach altitudes of around 80,000-feet. Still, it's been retired by most operators and is only in use by a few former Soviet republics and possibly North Korea.

SA-5 Gammon: The North may have up to 40 batteries of this old design meant to shoot down high-flying bombers at long ranges. The SA-5 was introduced in the mid-1960s and is largely a fixed system, meaning it's difficult to hide from U.S. fighters equipped with anti-radar missiles -- though the North supposedly has them hidden in concrete bunkers. Their fixed status also means that they can simply be avoided by strike aircraft. One of the strengths of the SA-5 is that the system can be plugged into a variety of radars, improving its ability to find targets. It should be noted however, that both Syria and Libya employ or employed such missiles. They didn't do much to help Muammar al-Qaddafi against the NATO air campaign of 2011, and they didn't prevent Israel from destroying a Syrian nuclear facility in 2007 (though the latter operation reportedly used a cyber strike to blind Syrian radars to the presence of Israeli jets).

SA-17 Gadfly: This system is nicknamed "four fingers of death" since, you guessed it, it's got four missiles laid out next to each other on the launcher. The North Koreans may have hundreds of these missiles (though this is unconfirmed and some dispute whether they have any), which were developed by the Soviets in the 1970s and largely fielded in the 1980s. The SA-17 reportedly has a range of about 19 miles and an altitude of 46,000 feet. Both the missile launcher and its radar system are mobile, meaning they can try to hide from enemy bombers. The SA-17 system is used by lots of countries with fairly robust air defenses, such as China, India, and Iran (which reportedly developed a knock-off version). Georgia was able to down several Russian jets, including a TU-22M strategic bomber/reconnaissance jet, with SA-17s during the 2008 war there. Meanwhile, Israeli warplanes took out a convoy of Syrian SA-17s that were supposedly being shipped to Hezbollah in January.

It wouldn't be easy.
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Old 2013-04-03, 19:13   Link #674
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Generation of brainwashing couldn't make us hate Japan, and that's where the our loyalties lie today.


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Originally Posted by willx View Post
I'm not sure you can speak for all of the Taiwanese with those statements
He definitely doesn't speak for this one. I've no love for PRC, but loyalty to Japan? you've gotta be kidding me.
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Old 2013-04-03, 19:16   Link #675
Sumeragi
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I'm certain that different "kinds" of Taiwanese have different historical memories.
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Old 2013-04-03, 19:17   Link #676
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N. Korea approves nuclear strike on United States
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Old 2013-04-03, 19:21   Link #677
Ithekro
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Nothing was ever easy in Korea. But I wonder what differences there will be if China does not help in a ground war, should one happen, like they did in the 50's.

The maps I recall show the North Koreans gaining massive amounts of ground until the US/UN forces could stage landing and then push them all the way to the Chinese border when the Communist started swamping the UN forces with Unlimited Manpower.
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Old 2013-04-03, 19:24   Link #678
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post




He definitely doesn't speak for this one. I've no love for PRC, but loyalty to Japan? you've gotta be kidding me.
Can I translate that as "I will be loyal to their lolis but not their country"?
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Old 2013-04-03, 19:25   Link #679
LeoXiao
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Meh, the best they've got are some Buks, and even that isn't confirmed.

The state of their training and maintenance will in all likeleyhood be lackluster as well.
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Old 2013-04-03, 19:26   Link #680
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Nothing was ever easy in Korea. But I wonder what differences there will be if China does not help in a ground war, should one happen, like they did in the 50's.

The maps I recall show the North Koreans gaining massive amounts of ground until the US/UN forces could stage landing and then push them all the way to the Chinese border when the Communist started swamping the UN forces with Unlimited Manpower.
I'm no expert war strategist (unless we wanna talk ancient warfare, lol), but I had always been under the impression that China's involvement was more or less the reason NK could even defend themselves in the long term during the original war. Unless things go guerrilla, would they really stand much of a chance without China's aid?
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