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Old 2013-04-04, 15:22   Link #61
solidguy
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what harm could one shot of amaterasu do? i mean it is the power to melt your face off by looking at you but hey, i'll try and slice you with my good old katana instead. even fire off a shot at his big god statue ffs im starting to get abit tired of the biju-dama/generic sword/kunai slash fight choreography lately...can someone atleast pull out a water dragon or something else that looks cool plis
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Old 2013-04-04, 16:19   Link #62
Sasukemaru
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^^^ Im pretty sure they had both reached their limits. I think their fight ended how it should have for all the chakra they expended.

Madara: I've been fighting for god knows how long, all the while controlling the kyuubi wrapped in a susanoo while throwing every jutsu I have at the strongest ninja who ever lived. I got a idea, let me end this fight with a ms jutsu that drains a considerable amount of chakra so the end of this fight looks cool....yeah that sounds like a good idea, even tho i don't have enough chakra left to even activate my base sharingan.

Seriously solidguy?

Im glad the flashback is over, i enjoyed it...but im ready to take that story just told to get the current plot rolling again. Another flashback now would make Hashirama's flashback completely irrelevant to sasukes decision and progressing the story.
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Old 2013-04-04, 16:32   Link #63
JustRob
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Still, to think Hashirama backstabbed Madara in the end to beat him... Hardly a honorable victory, only the lowest of the low finish a fight that way.
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Old 2013-04-04, 16:37   Link #64
kitten320
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I see nothing wrong. It's not like Hashima attacked him from a shadow while Madara was sleeping.

It was an honest fight. Madara's fault for not seeing that it was a clone. And if we really have to be fair, whole Uchiha clan if full of cowards since they use hypnoses instead of fighting head on.

Just because you kick someone square in the face, does not make you brave and great.

Besides if our dear Hokage was not so kind, Madara would be dead long time ago.
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Old 2013-04-04, 16:39   Link #65
Sasukemaru
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Ninja fight with deception (or are supposed to anyway)

Using a wood clone to trick Madara who didn't have the chakra to use his sharingan to differentiate between the real hashi and a wood clone seems like the the ideal way to get madara to drop his guard and leave himself wide open to attack imo.
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Old 2013-04-04, 16:49   Link #66
JustRob
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It's still cowardly. Madara could have backstabbed him any time, but instead he always chose to challenge Hashirama fair and square.
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Old 2013-04-04, 17:25   Link #67
james0246
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
It's still cowardly. Madara could have backstabbed him any time, but instead he always chose to challenge Hashirama fair and square.
I don't know if it is cowardly (Kakashi has used a similar trick multiple times, so to have other 'good' characters), but I do think Kishimoto wanted us to dislike the move and consider it unsavory and definitely not in line with the ideals Hashirama is preaching.
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Old 2013-04-04, 17:36   Link #68
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Anybody think Izuna is still gonna be revived sometime soon?
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Old 2013-04-04, 17:41   Link #69
JustRob
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I don't know if it is cowardly (Kakashi has used a similar trick multiple times, so to have other 'good' characters), but I do think Kishimoto wanted us to dislike the move and consider it unsavory and definitely not in line with the ideals Hashirama is preaching.
That's what I mean, it seems so unlike him to do that. If this flashback came from Madara I'd think he was bullshitting.
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Old 2013-04-04, 17:44   Link #70
sayde
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I don't think its cowardly at all. Using deception to catch opponents by surprise, and conversely, being prepared for the unexpected seems like it goes back to the most fundamental basic principles of shinobi combat. In fact, I'd have a hard time believing that Madara didn't also try his fair share of sneak attacks throughout the course of that extremely long final battle of theirs.

I'd honestly give the same type of credit to Hashirama for this victory as Naruto got when he used a clone to sneak an uppercut into Neji's jaw for the win. It was Madara's fault for getting a little ahead of himself and letting his guard down.
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Old 2013-04-04, 17:45   Link #71
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
Still, to think Hashirama backstabbed Madara in the end to beat him... Hardly a honorable victory, only the lowest of the low finish a fight that way.
The bunshin faint is pretty much the finishing move of the protagonist of this show.
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Old 2013-04-04, 17:47   Link #72
JustRob
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To be honest that case with Naruto and Neji was different altogether. Neji severely underestimated Naruto.

Hashirama and Madara seem to know each other's capability pretty well. But it's not just deception, it's literally a straight up backstab.
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Old 2013-04-04, 17:52   Link #73
sayde
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Hashirama and Madara seem to know each other's capability pretty well. But it's not just deception, it's literally a straight up backstab.
I guess I'm just not seeing the difference (with regards to fairness or cheapness) at the end of the day between using deception to land a surprise punch to the face or using a deception to stab someone in the back. But that's fine. We can agree to disagree.
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Old 2013-04-04, 18:01   Link #74
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It's not so much deception, I would've felt differently if Hashirama revealed his bunshin and then came in charging... I guess it's just a symbolic thing, it feels unsatisfactory. After such a battle, to be stabbed in the back...
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Old 2013-04-04, 18:02   Link #75
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It's still cowardly. Madara could have backstabbed him any time, but instead he always chose to challenge Hashirama fair and square.
It's a ninja fight at it's best, not some "who overpowers who" stuff. Actually i expected that Hashirama overpowers Madara with his super-summon, partly because that would give Madara a good chance to fake his death in all that rubble around. Now it will be less believeable that he survived and Hashirama didn't notice it. But the autor decided that he wanted a darker tone for the finishing move, and i like it because Hashirama's idea of sacrificing anyone and anything for the sake of the village really explains a lot about the mentality which leads to the thinking that ninja are just tools.

Anyway saying that Hashirama behaved cowardly is nonsense when the story says that they had a lot of battles and Hashirama always won, which means he always spared Madara's life. He is shown to be a very special guy, because let's admit it we would have never spared Madara's life in such situations. Maybe the 1st time yes, but not the 2nd time.
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Old 2013-04-04, 19:22   Link #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
It's still cowardly. Madara could have backstabbed him any time, but instead he always chose to challenge Hashirama fair and square.
They're shinobi. Assassins. They are not samurai. I believe you're looking for the Bleach forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
It's not so much deception, I would've felt differently if Hashirama revealed his bunshin and then came in charging... I guess it's just a symbolic thing, it feels unsatisfactory. After such a battle, to be stabbed in the back...
So you want him to create a clone so as to distract Madara, and then dismiss it and proclaim himself so he can be targeted again? And the strategy behind that is...?
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Old 2013-04-04, 19:41   Link #77
bonsobon
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Last chapter Hashirama was prepared to kill himself to make peace with the Uchiha. He also couldn't answer Madara's question about who he would kill to preserve the peace of the village. This chapter however he said he would be prepared to sacrifice anyone, even family, if it meant keeping the village safe. Why the sudden 180? What happened during the time that Madara left and their last fight, for him to change his views?
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Old 2013-04-04, 19:48   Link #78
Hunter
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It's not even about being shinobi or samourai, it's that using a Bunshin as a distraction to flank the enemy is what all the characters using clones have been doing since chapter one. Hell Madara did just that a few chapters ago to Tsunade.
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I don't know if it is cowardly (Kakashi has used a similar trick multiple times, so to have other 'good' characters), but I do think Kishimoto wanted us to dislike the move and consider it unsavory and definitely not in line with the ideals Hashirama is preaching.
I don't think the move itself is supposed to be unsavory although it's meant to be the last cold move of a tragedy. This is however the moment when Hashirama gave up on his young self in order to protect his dream, this is supposed to be what will differentiate him from Naruto who will somehow be able to reach the next step.
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Originally Posted by bonsobon View Post
Last chapter Hashirama was prepared to kill himself to make peace with the Uchiha. He also couldn't answer Madara's question about who he would kill to preserve the peace of the village. This chapter however he said he would be prepared to sacrifice anyone, even family, if it meant keeping the village safe. Why the sudden 180? What happened during the time that Madara left and their last fight, for him to change his views?
His view didn't change, last time Madara gave him options even if they were crazy and so Hashirama was ready to kill himself if that meant peace. This time he felt that Madara didn't leave him any choice, it was either Madara's life or peace.
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Old 2013-04-04, 20:56   Link #79
Masuzu
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Originally Posted by solidguy View Post
what harm could one shot of amaterasu do? i mean it is the power to melt your face off by looking at you but hey, i'll try and slice you with my good old katana instead. even fire off a shot at his big god statue ffs im starting to get abit tired of the biju-dama/generic sword/kunai slash fight choreography lately...can someone atleast pull out a water dragon or something else that looks cool plis
Disregarding everything that's been said, in the first place we don't know if he even has Amaterasu.
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Old 2013-04-04, 22:02   Link #80
Mr. Johnny 5
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
You think he used Tsukuyomi on Hashirama? I guess it's possible, but I feel that Hashirama, after spending an entire lifetime fighting the Uchiha, would have developed a counter to it. I think the fact that Madara had to resort to Susanoo shows that Hashirama was above the level where he could be taken out by Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi.

Another possibility is that Madara used a fission technique similar to the one performed by the 2nd Tsuchikage Muu. It would have left Madara alive, but at half his normal strength.
I am glad someone brought it up because it kept me busy aswell. Did Hashirama have special abilities to block genjutsu? Was Madara just terrible at genjutsu?
Does the Senju have (body) special blood to counter the (eyes) Uchiha? The direct descendants of the Rikkodou Senin?

Also didn't Madara mentioned that Hashirama could use techniques without handseals and even heal his own body while fighting? Ofcourse that technique means a certain overkill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
It's a ninja fight at it's best, not some "who overpowers who" stuff. Actually i expected that Hashirama overpowers Madara with his super-summon, partly because that would give Madara a good chance to fake his death in all that rubble around. Now it will be less believeable that he survived and Hashirama didn't notice it. But the autor decided that he wanted a darker tone for the finishing move, and i like it because Hashirama's idea of sacrificing anyone and anything for the sake of the village really explains a lot about the mentality which leads to the thinking that ninja are just tools.

Anyway saying that Hashirama behaved cowardly is nonsense when the story says that they had a lot of battles and Hashirama always won, which means he always spared Madara's life. He is shown to be a very special guy, because let's admit it we would have never spared Madara's life in such situations. Maybe the 1st time yes, but not the 2nd time.
Hmmm... well that is always easy to say when you arent standing in their feet. Their are born ninja's. But also they were more then just friends, they were more even though they didnt share the same blood. They chose eachother over their clans. In the end they chose their own paths over their bond.

Sasuke has asked so far all of them except the 4th. I wonder what question Sasuke will ask him... were the Uchiha involved with the attack of the Kyuubi?
Info about the Uzumaki Clan? Can i kill your son?

I cant think of beyond this war. I really doubt the villages will fight eachother again after saving the world. So either all villages gets destroyed (which would seem logical) and they all will have to rebuild things. Or... the world will be almost destroyed and Naruto gets somehow a special training in another timespace world with all 4 previous Hokages.

Ending up with invunerability against genjutsu, wood ninja style (to rebuild the village) and sealing/timespace techniques. Just... to end Madara/Obito's reign.
Freeing the world of the fantasy "eye of the moon".
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