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Old 2013-04-05, 12:33   Link #101
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
The fight is about the living ninja world uniting to fight evil and returning the past to the past so they can build a brighter future. The Hokages represent part of that failed past and have no place in this fight. They have to leave it to the current generation. That is the whole theme of Naruto.
madara is hashirama and tobirama's burden, orochimaru is hiruzen's burden, obito is minato's burden and sasuke is naruto's burden. there's no way naruto is going to take them all down himself. before you jump all over me, i'm not saying that each of these people will precisely take down each of their respective burdens. hopefully it will be more complex and less obvious. i'm just saying it's not all on naruto and the current generation and the hokages indeed have a place in the war

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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
Then tell me what the definition is of "controlling life and death". He can't kill people with the bat of an eye, and according to my friend's theory above he can only resurrect those who recently died, otherwise it costs him his own life.

Pain is the one who called himself a God. That statement is about worth as much as saying he can control life and death, which is not much.
like i said these are facts. it's not a debate. here's a link to the paths of pain on narutopedia: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Six_Paths_of_Pain look up 'Outer Path' specifically
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Old 2013-04-05, 12:37   Link #102
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
madara is hashirama and tobirama's burden, orochimaru is hiruzen's burden, obito is minato's burden and sasuke is naruto's burden. there's no way naruto is going to take them all down himself

like i said these are facts. it's not a debate. here's a link to the 6 paths of pain on narutopedia: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Six_Paths_of_Pain look up 'Outer Path' specifically
You can say it's a fact, but that really doesn't make anything more clear. Like I said, Pain called himself a God. That's a fact. Is he therefore a God? No he's not.

"The Outer Path (外道, Gedō) is the seventh path, an ability granted to the wielder of the Rinnegan. With the Outer Path, the user is able to control life and death by reviving the dead, bind and restrict foes, as well as create and control the Six Paths of Pain."

Okay, so Outer Path can revive the dead and bind enemies. Is that supposed to be control over life and death? It sounds like a very ambitious way of saying you can revive the dead. So because he can revive the dead, he can't make mistakes whether or not somebody's heart has stopped?

Remember, he thought Kakashi was dead as well. He had no idea Kakashi saved himself with Kamui, which later cost him dearly.
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Old 2013-04-05, 12:50   Link #103
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
You can say it's a fact, but that really doesn't make anything more clear. Like I said, Pain called himself a God. That's a fact. Is he therefore a God? No he's not.

"The Outer Path (外道, Gedō) is the seventh path, an ability granted to the wielder of the Rinnegan. With the Outer Path, the user is able to control life and death by reviving the dead, bind and restrict foes, as well as create and control the Six Paths of Pain."

Okay, so Outer Path can revive the dead and bind enemies. Is that supposed to be control over life and death? It sounds like a very ambitious way of saying you can revive the dead. So because he can revive the dead, he can't make mistakes whether or not somebody's heart has stopped?

Remember, he thought Kakashi was dead as well. He had no idea Kakashi saved himself with Kamui, which later cost him dearly.
it's typical of people with no point to resort to saying things that have no bearing on the specific discussion. i never said pain was a god. you keep throwing that in there as a distraction. and kakashi has nothing to do with it either. the crux of the disagreement is whether people can come back from the dead or not. it's so overwhelmingly obvious that they can since that's all that has been happening lately with edo tensei that you narrowed it down to the person themself doing it and saying it's never happened. if you reread the end of chapter 382, you will see that not only was pain confused by jiraiya's revival, but so was the toad fukasaku who is actually the one who says it specifically (and he is another character who should be able to distinguish life from death through nature chakra and his literal attachment to jiraiya...). now i'm sure you'll counter by saying kishi didn't stop the story and explain in excruciating detail exactly what jiraiya did, but you'd clearly be glossing over the point of those last couple pages that jiraiya willed himself back to leave a final dying message. and with that i can explain it no further. feel free to believe whatever you want. that's the beauty of literary interpretation. you can ignore the author's intent and come up with your own story
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Old 2013-04-05, 12:53   Link #104
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
it's typical of people with no point to resort to saying things that have no bearing on the specific discussion. i never said pain was a god. you keep throwing that in there as a distraction. and kakashi has nothing to do with it either. the crux of the disagreement is whether people can come back from the dead or not. it's so overwhelmingly obvious that they can since that's all that has been happening lately with edo tensei that you narrowed it down to the person themself doing it and saying it's never happened. if you reread the end of chapter 382, you will see that not only was pain confused by jiraiya's revival, but so was the toad fukasaku who is actually the one who says it specifically. now i'm sure you'll counter by saying by saying kishi didn't stop the story and explain in excruciating detail exactly what jiraiya did, but you'd clearly be glossing over the point of those last couple pages that jiraiya willed himself back to leave a final dying message. and with that i can explain it no further. feel free to believe whatever you want. that's the beauty of literary interpretation. you can ignore the author's intent and come up with your own story
I think you're the one who misunderstands the author's intent, but whatever. Name one other case where a person came back to life by themselves. Never happened, did it?

Jiraiya lost consciousness but had enough willpower to regain it for a few moments. There's nothing more to it. You're the one who came up with this whole "soul left the body" theory, don't act like that was what in fact happened.
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Old 2013-04-05, 12:57   Link #105
itachi-san314
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^i never said his soul left his body...

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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
Name one other case where a person came back to life by themselves. Never happened, did it?
name one other case where someone implanted sharingans on their arm to use izanagi multiple times aside from danzo. can't? then i guess it never happened
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Old 2013-04-05, 13:02   Link #106
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
I don't see the 4 Hokages ever joining the war. You couldn't avoid it being overkill and having them overshadow everyone. Remember, 4 current Kage will be showing up soon and the Alliance was taking it to Madara, Obito, and the Juubi the last we saw them. There is no room at the inn even when Madara makes a comeback and the juubi enters its final form.
I think you are underestimating Madara and overestimating the 4 kages. Madara has become closer to the Sage than ever before, now the only thing that stands in his way is that he can't seal the 10-tails inside himself while he is not resurrected. He didn't take seriously his fights until now, but i think if Obito shows weakness and is about to be overpowered then Madara will get serious. That's when the alliance and Naruto will need help.

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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
If Kishi has Hashirama and Madara engage in a boring fanservice zombie fight, he risks turning the manga into "The Legend of Hashirama Senju and Madara Uchiha" as it nears its end rather than "Naruto Uzumaki and his ninja pals save the world."
I think Madara is currently stronger than Hashirama, so the only thing Hashirama will be able to do is to help Naruto, but he can't defeat the evil boss himself. Naruto's "ninja pals" are also be the 4 hokages.

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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
He takes away from the main character and his conflict.
I think it's the opposite, the whole point of showing us the Madara vs Hashirama conflict was to show us what is the problem with the world that Naruto has to fix, now we have the context where to put Naruto's actions. So that we can see Naruto growing above the 1st hokage both mentally and physcially, and then there's only the secrets and powers of the Sage of 6 paths that is left for the story. I think a personal meeting with the past hokages could help Naruto a lot mentally.

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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
That is why the Hokages and Hashirama's role should end when Sasuke decides his fate and leaves for the battlefield. I am sure Kishi has a way to bring their closure.
You say that the 4 hokages are stronger than Madara and Tobito, but then why do you expect that they will just disappear while it's obvious that as hokages they will desperately try to defend the alliance? Can Orochimaru or Sasuke force these 4 to disappear or even force them to fight against the alliance? I think not. We see that Hashirama already broke out of Orochi's control, i don't see how could they force him not to join the war. Maybe if they forced the other 3 hokages to fight the 1st and also Sasuke would fight him too. But such a fight would be completely pointless fanservice that has nothing to do with the war. Orochi could dispell the jutsu to make them disappear but if Madara could remain in this world then i don't see how Hashirama or Tobirama who invented the jutsu could not do the same.

Actually i see only one way for the 4 to willingly go back to the world of dead and have a sort of happy ending: if Sasuke decides to join Naruto and the alliance and beat Madara, if he tells that to Hashirama i'm sure that Hashirama would believe him like he believed the young Madara, and would willingly disappear, and also order Tobirama to stfu and disappear too. But i find it unlikely that Sasuke suddenly decides to join the alliance. It's possible if he decides that Madara and Tobito must die (also after learning from Minato that Tobito lied about his role in the kyuubi incident) but after that he won't join Naruto, which would leave us in a Naruto-Sasuke relationship very similar to the Madara-Hashirama's relationship after the village was formed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
The fight is about the living ninja world uniting to fight evil and returning the past to the past so they can build a brighter future. The Hokages represent part of that failed past and have no place in this fight. They have to leave it to the current generation. That is the whole theme of Naruto.
Until now we have seen many ninja of the past helping the living ninja, Tsunade being save by her lover, Itachi saving the world by defeating Kabuto, etc. The story is also to give a "happy end" to the characters that died before they could reach a state of the mind that we could call happyness. It happened even before the war: Kakashi's father was in a bad state of mind that left him in some sort of "purgatory"-like state where he can't go neither to heaven nor to hell, but his meeting with Kakashi let him go to his personal heaven which was to join his wife (or teammates?) if i remember correctly. Even Sasori got his happy ending when meeting with Kankuro. And we know that all 4 hokages need a happy end since they deserve it, they deserve to see if the next hokage can save the world, otherwise they would go back wondering if Madara won the war and konoha doesn't exist any more.
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Old 2013-04-05, 13:02   Link #107
Eragon
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How can someone come back to life by themselves? That's just plain stupid in any universe. I have never seen that happen in any anime or manga or comic book or any other shit.

No, seriously, what's the point of making a statement like that?


And, a big NO to zombie fights please. Do not want to see old relics taking the over the manga. As much as I dislike Naruto's talk-no-jutsu and repetitive shadow clone spamming, I at least want Kishi to stick with his theme of the younger generation surpassing the old.
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Old 2013-04-05, 13:05   Link #108
JustRob
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
^i never said his soul left his body...

name one other case where someone implanted sharingans on their arm to use izanagi multiple times aside from danzo. can't? then i guess it never happened
Okay man, fine. Believe what you want to, it really doesn't make any difference.
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Old 2013-04-05, 13:08   Link #109
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
How can someone come back to life by themselves? That's just plain stupid in any universe. I have never seen that happen in any anime or manga or comic book or any other shit.

No, seriously, what's the point of making a statement like that?
well if you want to believe that pain who has 'control over life and death' and fukusaku who is a nature chakra master and literally connected to jiraiya, can't tell the difference between him being dead or unconscious then so be it...
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Old 2013-04-05, 13:13   Link #110
Eragon
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
well if you want to believe that pain who has 'control over life and death' and fukusaku who is a nature chakra master and literally connected to jiraiya, can't tell the difference between him being dead or unconscious then so be it...
Eh, I wasn't addressing you. I was addressing the other guy in your argument

And, I couldn't care less whether Jiraya was dead or not. The point is, in the Narutoverse, death is not final since, people can come back to life - with outside interference obviously.
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Old 2013-04-05, 13:42   Link #111
itachi-san314
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Eh, I wasn't addressing you. I was addressing the other guy in your argument

And, I couldn't care less whether Jiraya was dead or not. The point is, in the Narutoverse, death is not final since, people can come back to life - with outside interference obviously.
ah. i think it's interesting how some people pick and choose which far-fetched elements of the story should be discredited based on logic or based on our reality or whatever. personally, i find someone who just died and then willed himself back to life for a couple seconds to be much less far-fetched then say... summoning the ethereal warrior susano'o, or controlling a zombie army with a risk boardgame, or turning one's self into a chakra canister that can control 100s of puppets, etc... one thing about the narutoverse is that there are no rules. most fictional stories, even surreal ones, have some kinds of limitations or rules, but in naruto pretty much anything can happen. i think that's why some people complain about it at times, myself included, but not often since i have come to terms with the fact that anything is possible in kishi's world. when death loses all meaning and orochimaru can be pulled out of a curse mark then it's time to shrug your shoulders and just try to enjoy it for what it is
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Old 2013-04-05, 13:50   Link #112
Eragon
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I ain't defending this manga buddy. So, I don't see why we are having an argument. I mean, except for Susano'o I agree with the rest of the things you posted as being completely broken.
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Old 2013-04-05, 14:13   Link #113
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^lol i'm not arguing with you =) i was just raising a point that saying something is 'impossible' has no bearing on anything in naruto since nothing is impossible, which you don't seem to disagree with either. forum posts don't always have to be argumentative
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Old 2013-04-05, 14:39   Link #114
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Why do some of you think Jiraiya didn't will himself back to life in his fight against Pain when multiple characters said he did? Hell, that's not even anything magical...People in the real world have died as in the their brain turns off, heart stops, everything that makes you dead...and they came back to life...Why would it be impossible to do the same thing in the magical narutoverse?

More importantly, why is this even relevant?

I don't like to get in other ppls lil squabbles...but when you posted that link from wiki explaining the outer path, one of the first things it said was the power to control life and death....then you ended your post by saying that it doesn't say he has the power to control life or death....blah im done, you two have fun.
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Old 2013-04-05, 15:16   Link #115
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Originally Posted by Sasukemaru View Post
Why do some of you think Jiraiya didn't will himself back to life in his fight against Pain when multiple characters said he did? Hell, that's not even anything magical...People in the real world have died as in the their brain turns off, heart stops, everything that makes you dead...and they came back to life...Why would it be impossible to do the same thing in the magical narutoverse?

More importantly, why is this even relevant?

I don't like to get in other ppls lil squabbles...but when you posted that link from wiki explaining the outer path, one of the first things it said was the power to control life and death....then you ended your post by saying that it doesn't say he has the power to control life or death....blah im done, you two have fun.
Yeah except the difference is in real life they return after they are re-animated... Big shock, I know
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Old 2013-04-05, 15:31   Link #116
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Anyway, I think the Hokages, or at least Hashirama, may join the battle after all. I was reading a few chapters back when I noticed this:



Apparently Hashirama and Naruto share the same idea of what a shinobi is. I do believe they're going to highlight that.
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Old 2013-04-06, 00:54   Link #117
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Fine JustRob...Jiraiya didn't momentarily die then will himself back to life against Pain, all the characters who were there were wrong, and the writer of the story was wrong to even expect that could be possible in a world where ppl pull meteors from the sky. Only you in your infinite wisdom have discovered what the author should have done, the next time i run into kishi I'll let him know he made a mistake writing his story because some guy on a forum doesn't think willing yourself back to life is logical in a world full of 200 foot talking toads.

There you're right now, are you happy?
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Old 2013-04-06, 01:32   Link #118
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It was clearly a case of Pain got it wrong, it's not the only time it happened, and even if it was it still would make the most sense.
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Old 2013-04-06, 02:11   Link #119
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Imo I don't want the kages fighting in this war. But I would really like to see them meet Naruto. Especially Sarutobi. To see his reaction on what Naruto has become. Since the last time he saw him, Naruto was still a brat.
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Old 2013-04-06, 05:46   Link #120
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Imo I don't want the kages fighting in this war. But I would really like to see them meet Naruto. Especially Sarutobi. To see his reaction on what Naruto has become. Since the last time he saw him, Naruto was still a brat.
I agree with you on that point, i would like to see Sarutobi's reaction when he see's what has become of Naruto, i think it would made him proud.
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