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Old 2013-03-31, 21:35   Link #21
Demi.
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Well, if "better" implies "more of." The action itself was good, but the Signum vs. Fate battles lasted like thirty seconds at a time, while Nanoha vs. Vita went on for way longer.
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:37   Link #22
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Like I said, I was impressed with Photon Lancer Genocide Shift in the movie, but they cut away before showing Nanoha getting out of it to showcase more Fate, which doesn't help as the rest of the action was so bland and unimpressive...

Really, that could have been one of those moments that would have made the movie better, but they chose to skip it.
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Old 2013-03-31, 21:45   Link #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Problem is, as has been stated, is that the movie gave Fate more scenes than was absolutely needed.

Hell, even Nanoha hasn't gotten any development from the movies yet.

Really, even if you're a Fate fan, you should admit that Chrono and/or Lindy should have had closure with the Book of Darkness.
I don't really want to re-hash what has been a thoroughly exhaustive debate.

So, instead, I've decided to lay out some basic guidelines/principles that inform my positions, which is admittedly what I probably should have done in the first place about a week or so ago.

I understand your issues with the movie. Really, I do. The movie is not perfect, and has some definite weaknesses to it. Some more Chrono/Lindy focus would have been nice.


But in an action-oriented film like this one, you want viewers to truly care about the combatants in them. And the consistent combatants in this action-adventure animated film are Nanoha, Fate, and the Wolks (nobody else is in every action scene). Everything revolves around Hayate and Reinforce, so that makes them important as well when it comes to getting people to actually care about these fights.

Even in the original TV show, this is true - Nanoha, Fate, and the Wolks were the only ones involved in every combat scene.
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Old 2013-04-01, 06:28   Link #24
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So prioritizing characters over plot is automatically "doing things poorly"? Plot-driven is inherently superior to character-driven?
Not at all, but a character driven story does take a different approach in writing.

In a character driven story, the characters are the plot. There is very little happining outside of the characters that doesn't directly relate to their plot.

In this aspect, A's isn't character driven. At least, not when it comes to Fate, because Fate's plot exists in a plot of its own that has little to do with A's as a whole. Now if the entirety of A's was about Fate's family crisis and her coming to terms with it, then you could say A's was character driven.

But it isn't, A's is about this mysterious book that could blow up the world and the people around it. It's a plot-driven story.

Now having said that, it's not as if a plot-driven story is without character focus. Jurassic Park is a plot-driven story, but you can still see all of the characters change and grow.
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Old 2013-04-01, 07:46   Link #25
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One thing I want to know about these movies...

Where's Nanoha's backstory, motivations and characterization?

Even if you disregard Yuuno, Chrono, Lindy and Arf for Fate and Nanoha being there, there's still zero development for Nanoha, at all.
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Old 2013-04-01, 07:50   Link #26
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That, at least, has nothing to do with the A's series. The A's series was pretty much devoid of Nanoha backstory and character growth as well.
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Old 2013-04-01, 07:53   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
That, at least, has nothing to do with the A's series. The A's series was pretty much devoid of Nanoha backstory and character growth as well.
I said movies, Keroko, both of them.
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Old 2013-04-01, 08:34   Link #28
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
One thing I want to know about these movies...

Where's Nanoha's backstory, motivations and characterization?

Even if you disregard Yuuno, Chrono, Lindy and Arf for Fate and Nanoha being there, there's still zero development for Nanoha, at all.
That's a problem with a character with an established set of traits and motivations, she has very little room for characterization, yet there are some aspects of her character we can only hope to guess, unless revealed in further works or chapters. Basically, it is really difficult to develop Nanoha in a span of two movies because it is already established in the series that she's a nice young girl, who would help anyone she feels needs help. Her motivation for helping people is simply because she wants to, that being the case, she got involved in the Book of Darkness case because she felt Vita needs help of some sort, and offered it to her, if only she knew what the problem was. Frankly, if you have already seen the series, then you should have expected that Nanoha would develop little as a character.

Now unless the rumored 3rd movie is about StrikerS, then we could expect some form of characterization from there. After all, we still do not know what makes Nanoha truly angry, angry enough to come at an enemy with killing intent. And the incident where Nanoha got sidelined, which I believe, would show us how Nanoha copes with her own despair.
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Old 2013-04-01, 08:38   Link #29
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I said movies, Keroko, both of them.
That's what he meant. A's series didn't develop Nanoha, so it's not really a flaw of the movie to do the same.

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Originally Posted by Hoki
After all, we still do not know what makes Nanoha truly angry, angry enough to come at an enemy with killing intent.
Now that will never happen. If Quattro couldn't get her to do it, no one will.
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Old 2013-04-01, 08:39   Link #30
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Originally Posted by Hoki View Post
That's a problem with a character with an established set of traits and motivations, she has very little room for characterization, yet there are some aspects of her character we can only hope to guess, unless revealed in further works or chapters.

Frankly, if you have already seen the series, then you should have expected that Nanoha would develop little as a character.
Ah Ah ah! *Shakes finger*

We're talking about the movies, NOT the series.

In the series, we find out Nanoha's backstory and motivations in season 1.

Her father was injured when she was four, so she determined to never be a bother and be able to stand up on her own two feet so her family wouldn't worry about her. She jumped in between Arisa and Suzuka to stop them from fighting and become friends. And she pushes herself super hard because of that tree monster Jewel Seed.

Now then...

Where is ANY of that in the movies?

Remember, the movies are billed as being able to watch and understand without needing to do homework (watch the series).
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Old 2013-04-01, 09:42   Link #31
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Ah Ah ah! *Shakes finger*

We're talking about the movies, NOT the series.

In the series, we find out Nanoha's backstory and motivations in season 1.

Her father was injured when she was four, so she determined to never be a bother and be able to stand up on her own two feet so her family wouldn't worry about her. She jumped in between Arisa and Suzuka to stop them from fighting and become friends. And she pushes herself super hard because of that tree monster Jewel Seed.

Now then...

Where is ANY of that in the movies?

Remember, the movies are billed as being able to watch and understand without needing to do homework (watch the series).
Ah I love these kinds of discussions. Last time I participated is in a Naruto thread defending NaruHina.

Unfortunately I have to withhold my answer as it will be a long one, as I have to cover BOTH movies.

Ohohohohohoho!!!
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Old 2013-04-01, 09:44   Link #32
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I hate that series (Naruto).

Anyway, if you have a movie that's billed to be able to watch without knowing the series inside and out and it has plot holes that you need to have watched the series to enjoy, then it fails with its premise.
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Old 2013-04-01, 09:48   Link #33
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Most people don't look for plot holes, so unless it's a large gaping hole that ruins the entire movie, it's of little consequence. And the movies have no such hole, so it still succeeds as entertainment value.
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Old 2013-04-01, 10:56   Link #34
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In the A's series, Nanoha made the choice to tell her friends and family about magic. Granted, that was partially because Arisa and Suzuka saw them, but that was Nanoha's development in A's. Also, at the end Nanoha made the decision to use magic to help people on a larger scale, and to pass her way of magic onto others (although the latter part was only really revealed in StrikerS).

In the A's movie, they weren't allowed to tell anyone... and then Nanoha is telling A/S about magic, but not her family. No word about what changed. The movie could could have Nanoha angst about it, whether to tell or not (and possibly break rules), but it didn't. Call it Nanoha's version of a lotus dream.

I wonder how big the howls would be, if Fate's development was cut for Nanoha's. I'm sure someone can twist logic enough to self-justify Fate over Nanoha, though. But Nanoha did have development in the A's series that was mostly cut in the movie.
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Old 2013-04-01, 18:04   Link #35
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I'm not sure if that even qualifies as development. As you said, Arisa/Suzuka caught her using magic. The movie actually remedied this -- which I considered a plot hole. Makes no sense why they were able to move around in the barrier. And the fact she still showed Arisa/Suzuka her magic at the end would qualify as development just as much as she did in the series. And in the movie, she wasn't given the reason of "they already saw me, anyways!"

...And the second part, you kind of get the impression she'll help anyone, regardless how small or large without being told directly. In a way, Nanoha was already helping people on a large scale in A's. She did help to save the world.
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Old 2013-04-01, 18:16   Link #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
I'm not sure if that even qualifies as development. As you said, Arisa/Suzuka caught her using magic. The movie actually remedied this -- which I considered a plot hole. Makes no sense why they were able to move around in the barrier. And the fact she still showed Arisa/Suzuka her magic at the end would qualify as development just as much as she did in the series. And in the movie, she wasn't given the reason of "they already saw me, anyways!"
It was development. Remember, up until Arisa and Suzuka saw them, Nanoha tried to keep them out of it. It was a big reason for their fight in S1. Watch that scene again where Arisa and Suzuka see them in the fight, and listen to Nanoha's voice; she sounds regretful, and knows that her relationship with them will change, thus she has to change.

The barrier makes sense when you realize that it was Shamal casting it; she wanted to trap Arisa and Suzuka as well, to prevent them from telling people (she could have very easily believed that Arisa and Suzuka could have been agents for the Bureau). The Book merely continued using it.

Quote:
...And the second part, you kind of get the impression she'll help anyone, regardless how small or large without being told directly. In a way, Nanoha was already helping people on a large scale in A's. She did help to save the world.
Slight difference... From S1 and A's, Nanoha would help those around her, ie, Japan on Earth. But Fate kinda put it best at the end of A's, when she told Nanoha that she wanted to join the TSAB, to specifically work to prevent these kinds of sad events from happening elsewhere. Nanoha developed to take that view as well, hence her reasoning for joining the TSAB as well. Prior to that, she was content with her family life. After S1 and A's, her own view got bigger. That is development.

That development is missing from the movie... from both Nanoha and Fate. But I suppose they might be able to fit something in like that, in the 3rd movie.
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Old 2013-04-01, 18:37   Link #37
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It was development. Remember, up until Arisa and Suzuka saw them, Nanoha tried to keep them out of it. It was a big reason for their fight in S1. Watch that scene again where Arisa and Suzuka see them in the fight, and listen to Nanoha's voice; she sounds regretful, and knows that her relationship with them will change, thus she has to change.

The barrier makes sense when you realize that it was Shamal casting it; she wanted to trap Arisa and Suzuka as well, to prevent them from telling people (she could have very easily believed that Arisa and Suzuka could have been agents for the Bureau). The Book merely continued using it.
It sounds to me like it was an "I've been caught, I better fess up now." Isn't the fact she showed Arisa/Suzuka at the end of the movie despite them not having prior knowledge a better rendition than being caught in the act?

I wasn't aware that barriers worked that way, I thought you needed to be magical in some way to be able to move around in them. It's never happened before to my knowledge, where a civilian was caught in a barrier.

Quote:
Slight difference... From S1 and A's, Nanoha would help those around her, ie, Japan on Earth. But Fate kinda put it best at the end of A's, when she told Nanoha that she wanted to join the TSAB, to specifically work to prevent these kinds of sad events from happening elsewhere. Nanoha developed to take that view as well, hence her reasoning for joining the TSAB as well. Prior to that, she was content with her family life. After S1 and A's, her own view got bigger. That is development.

That development is missing from the movie... from both Nanoha and Fate. But I suppose they might be able to fit something in like that, in the 3rd movie.
Yeah, I don't remember such a scene. But if Fate brought it up, was it really Nanoha's development?
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Old 2013-04-02, 06:10   Link #38
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Nanoha telling Arisa and Suzuka about magic could have been a great point of development, but both the series and the movie never really tapped into the potential of this development (though the movie even less so).

I mean, you have an honest girl like Nanoha faced with having to hide things from her best friends and the resolution where she tells them. That could have made for some great scenes.
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Old 2013-04-02, 10:42   Link #39
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
It sounds to me like it was an "I've been caught, I better fess up now." Isn't the fact she showed Arisa/Suzuka at the end of the movie despite them not having prior knowledge a better rendition than being caught in the act?
Curious, though, how do you resolve the whole "we can't tell them" near the start with the rendition at the end of the movie? At least the series followed it more naturally. Nanoha voluntarily held back, and until she couldn't anymore, and thus decided to come clean, not only to her friends, but to her family as well. She didn't have to tell her family, and Arisa and Suzuka had indicated that if Nanoha didn't want to tell them, theywould be okay with that. Nevertheless, Nanoha made the decision to tell both friends and family.

Good development on Arisa's part, btw, that I think is important to her character. But something not needed in the movie because it is not linked to the plot. Just like every other minor character, like Fate. The difference is, I wouldn't whine if someone suggested removing some of her scenes.

I wasn't aware that barriers worked that way, I thought you needed to be magical in some way to be able to move around in them. It's never happened before to my knowledge, where a civilian was caught in a barrier. [/quote]

A barrier can trap anyone the caster wants it to trap. Normally they cast it to exclude people. If Arisa and Suzuka were in the barrier, there are only a couple of reasons why: they do have some kind of magic or special power because only normals were excluded... or the caster wanted them there. Given that Arisa and Suzuka were never shown to have anything really special about them (The Suzuka slam notwithstanding), logic would dictate the latter reason.

Quote:
Yeah, I don't remember such a scene. But if Fate brought it up, was it really Nanoha's development?
Why can't it be both? You need to watch the last episode of A's again. Fate says something along the lines of wanting to join the TSAB, to be able to stop sad events like the Book from happening. Nanoha replies that she's probably going in the same direction. I get the impression that she was thinking about it, that the whole Book episode, after the Jewel Seeds, had made an impact on her, and she was beginning to wonder what she would do. I see it as good development from both of them, as they both begin to realize what it is they want to do with their life. That's development, for both of them. Remember, at the very start of S1, Nanoha had been wondering what to do with her life. By the end of A's, she's figured it out.
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Old 2013-04-06, 00:06   Link #40
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Ah Ah ah! *Shakes finger*

We're talking about the movies, NOT the series.

In the series, we find out Nanoha's backstory and motivations in season 1.

Her father was injured when she was four, so she determined to never be a bother and be able to stand up on her own two feet so her family wouldn't worry about her. She jumped in between Arisa and Suzuka to stop them from fighting and become friends. And she pushes herself super hard because of that tree monster Jewel Seed.

Now then...

Where is ANY of that in the movies?

Remember, the movies are billed as being able to watch and understand without needing to do homework (watch the series).
This is going to be a long read for you or anyone else, so I advice you get a drink and a snack.

So, like you said movies are supposed to be watched without prior knowledge of the source material, if any, so in the first movie, it is established that Nanoha is simply an average girl who is the youngest in a family of five. Her primary dilemma was she does not know what she would do in the future, that is until she met a talking ferret and became a mage. No character development yet? Well we're just beginning.

Treating the hunt for jewel seeds as something she could do without supervision, or assistance, she rushes to a jewel seed site only to encounter a mage far skilled than her, also searching for the seeds. To me at least, this highlights one of Nanoha’s character flaws; she’s a helpful person, but she also blindly rushes into things that may spell danger for her or thinking about the consequences of her actions to help others, hoping that things will turn out all right. She did this when Yuuno was calling out to anyone who can hear his call and if not for Raising Heart, she would’ve been hurt and we are shown that Kyouya and Miyuki were worried about her, since she went out alone late at night and if not for Yuuno, she probably would’ve been scolded. This time, she went into a situation without knowing what would happen while only barely being able to use magic and tried to talk to the blond mage who has an interest on the jewel seed. Cue Nanoha getting her ass whooped and her first failure. This would now be the first development of Nanoha's character, since there is now a person other than Yuuno who is after the seeds and said person is better than her (or at least is an actual mage, in contrast to her, a child with a magic wand), she realizes that she must at least be familiar with magic in preparation for her eventual rematch. This also shows another character trait as normally, other girls her age would’ve quit after getting hurt like she did, but she begged Yuuno to let her continue helping him. When Nanoha says she will help you, she makes sure she sees it through until the end. In her training scenes, particularly during the virtual training, Raising Heart asks her what the important things in combat are aside from speed and power, and she answers the desire to win, thus showing another character flaw; she believes that all you need in order to win a fight is to have the desire to win but doesn’t actually show it because she’d rather talk things out. This comes to bite her in the ass during her second encounter with the blond mage known as Fate; she wasn’t trying to win (get the jewel seed), she was trying to find out why Fate needs the jewel seeds so she fought a defensive battle. The end result was Fate showing her how far she would go to get the jewel seeds, something Nanoha should have done.

We now fast forward to after the second encounter. Nanoha telling Yuuno that she’s worried about Fate and reasoning that she must have some very serious reasons for wanting the seeds, and that she seemed to be a lonely girl who probably is nice underneath, since she said sorry before shooting her down in their first encounter. Is this a case of Nanoha being insightful or just a kind girl? We’ll get back here later on. For now, we fast forward again to their third encounter, where Nanoha, while still in the hunt for the jewel seeds, tells Fate she wants to know why Fate needs the jewel seeds herself, and this time, she treats it as an objective to accomplish, if she wins, Fate will have no choice but to talk. This is quite an improvement from her previous actions, since now she’s starting to act on her belief, evidenced by the fact that she was on the attack (well it’s probably both of them attacking at the same time, but compare that to the previous encounters, where Fate always started the fight). If not for Chrono getting in the way, it would’ve been a brawl. The one thing I don’t get is why she stopped Chrono from shooting Fate and Arf even though it would’ve been a perfect chance to talk to Fate. Was she opposed to the idea of somebody else subduing Fate? Did she do it because she saw how defenseless and vulnerable Fate was and thought it was wrong? I don’t really know.

Anyway finally we get to the fourth and arguably most pivotal encounter: Nanoha defying orders in order to help Fate with the jewel seeds. Remember her flaw of blindly rushing into situations in order to help others? Now she knows what situation the person she wants to help is in and she knows what consequences she’ll have to face if she decides to help, but she went out and helped anyway because she believes that letting Fate wear herself out then capture her is not the right thing to do, even though she knows it is the correct thing to do. Second, remember that comment she made about Fate being lonely, even mentioning that she has lonely looking eyes? It turns out that the reason Nanoha can tell is because she knows what it’s like to be lonely, evidenced by images of a younger Nanoha all alone in their house. The only problem here is that the movie did not show why Nanoha grew up being a lonely girl, but other than that, it shows that Nanoha has finally figured out why she desperately wants to help Fate. It is because she did not like seeing lonely people and since she knows how being lonely feels like, she decided to become Fate’s friend, so the blond girl doesn’t have to feel the same painful feeling. Upon hearing Fate’s story from Arf, her resolve to help Fate and become her friend simply grew stronger.

And now we come to the final encounter, the epic battle between Nanoha and Fate. This battle shows mostly Fate’s story but Nanoha gets a few developments here too. Remember R.H’s question about the important things in battle. The answers to that are wisdom and tactics, and those traits are shown here. The “wisdom” part comes from the fact that Nanoha understands Fate is resolved to continue her mission despite how her mother treats her, simply because of a child’s loyalty to its parent, and if Nanoha wants to stop her, she will have to do it by force. She also understands that the cause of all the problems is the jewel seeds, so why not put them all on the line. The “tactics” part is that it is implied that it was Nanoha’s idea to buy time by fighting Fate, and betting all of the jewel seeds they have would serve as the perfect bait. If she wins, Fate gets captured, therefore forcing Precia to act and give her location. If she loses, Fate goes back with the jewel seeds, but Chrono and the others would be able to track her and Precia. On a fighter’s standpoint, Nanoha comments that she’s applying all she has learned regarding “wisdom and tactics” in fighting Fate, even stating that she’s come prepared with a trump card, so all that’s left is the desire to win. End result: STARLIGHT BREAKER and the plan actually working.

Now let’s assume that the same viewers came back to watch the second movie. If they have remembered, then they should be able to notice that some of Nanoha’ character flaws and development simply repeats itself in a much smaller scale during her encounters with Vita, since the story is about Hayate. I’d elaborate on this but this post has been long enough.

Saying that Nanoha does not any character development in the movie is, in my opinion, something of a stretch. One should simply look in the events of the movie itself. The fact that you were even making a comparison means you were basing things that sucked on the movies on the series, instead of treating it as an entirely different thing.

I now rest my case. Please don't make me go through this again.
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