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Old 2013-04-03, 08:02   Link #32081
Renall
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If there were some actual evidence of substitution in the first two stories or something then maybe we could say that's plausible, but I don't really see it. In Turn in particular (assuming Turn indeed is a message bottle story) the twilight selections seem pretty specific. If Ange were to have existed in some draft of the story, then either she hung out around Maria and literally did not do anything of interest in any way the whole time, or she was supposed to do something for which we have no evidence of an apparent textual alteration.

Granted we don't have this issue from Banquet and on, as we're no longer dealing with what the original author knew and it would've been a known fact thereafter that Ange wasn't there.

Also, why would the writer care about Ange being there being factually inaccurate? Eva dies in Legend and Turn. That automatically torpedoes (lol) any possibility that anyone would believe the message bottles were factual accounts. Unless someone were to claim Eva was part of a prank scheme, and we know the Witch Hunters aren't that sophisticated.
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Old 2013-04-03, 09:11   Link #32082
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Well, we can assume that Yasu didn't know that Eva would survive; that would appear to have been a completely unforeseen result. Ange not being present is something she could have realistically known before writing the message bottles, so it's a completely different situation. That said, I don't see much reason to think that Ange was 'edited out' either; more likely that she just knew before she started writing that Ange wouldn't be coming.

I'm not really sure if Ange ever actually met Yasu as Beatrice at all; given that the only flashback we have to Ange's supposed time in Mariage Sorciere has Ange describing it as simply "playing with stuffed animals", I would assume that it was only Maria she was playing with. Also, the way Ange talks about Beatrice in EP4 gives me the impression that she never actually met her; it seems to me that all Ange knows about Beatrice is what's in Maria's diary. When Ange gets confirmation on the diary handwriting, her conclusion is 'so the message bottles were written by the same person who wrote this in Maria's diary', and not 'so the message bottles were written by that maid who used to play with Maria and pretend to be Beatrice, who I met as a child'.

As for Beatrice's point of view, she probably doesn't know too much about Ange aside from what Maria has told her, and I imagine she wouldn't be too happy about Ange making her disciple upset. I can certainly see that leading to her somewhat ignoring her existence in the message bottles.

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Meta-Beatrice seems to hate Meta-Ange quite a bit in Banquet and Alliance. It's hard to say, of course, how much of this is Yasu-as-author not liking Ange-the-child and how much of it is adult Ange being kind of a bitch and Beatrice being aware that she's an interloper that Bern has sent in to stir things up.
This is tangential, but I'm curious as to where you're getting this, since I never got the impression that Meta-Beatrice particularly disliked ANGE. If anything I thought she seemed pretty impressed with her; she kept complimenting her for being much sharper than Battler on numerous occasions and never really acted in a particularly hostile manner towards her from what I recall. I guess there's the scene where Ange calls her out of the Golden Land, but Meta-Beatrice has a pretty good reason to be annoyed about that, not to mention that she's totally despondent and unresponsive towards EVERYONE by that point. And even there I wouldn't say she actually seemed at all angry at Ange.

I also seem to recall that EP8 Beatrice expressed regret at what her game did to Ange; I'll have to check out that part again. I think that in general, throughout EP8 Beatrice seemed just as friendly towards Ange as everyone else did, so...yeah, I'm not really getting where the idea that Meta-Beatrice hates Ange comes from.
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Old 2013-04-03, 09:21   Link #32083
Renall
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She was hostile to a certain extent in ep3 and ep4. I may be overstating it with "hate." But part of that is that Ange was explicitly positioning herself as an enemy. That completely disappears in ep8, however, but it might be understandable why (at that point presumably she knows more about Battler's perspective, and she's more keenly aware of her own contributions to Ange's suffering in ep8 anyway).

It seems a near-certainty that Ange never actually met Beatrice (at least knowingly; she may have been vaguely aware of the existence of a servant, but had not made any sort of connection there). More than likely she only ever heard about her through Maria, if even that. How much Maria specifically talked about her I can't recall, but if future-Ange has Maria's diary then she is aware of a Beatrice, inasmuch as Maria wrote about her. Since Ange seems to have no memories to color this experience, one presumes her only exposure to Beatrice is through what Maria either said or wrote about her.

In general, however, there's something a bit off about Ange's hate for Beatrice. She basically acts as though Beatrice was definitely a real person, blaming her for what happened... but then she turns around and blames Eva for everything too. Ange knows that Eva is not Beatrice, or at least seems to believe as such... so what the hell? It's hard to even call it a meta/reality disconnect as Ange has an awful lot of bleedthrough in that respect, and she discovers information in ep4 that she couldn't possibly attribute to Eva (such as the handwriting in Maria's diary).

Which one was it? Did the witch take your family or did Eva do it? If Eva did it, what was the deal with the witch then? You even know Beatrice had a darker side, because she taught it to Maria in the diary which you have read. How does Ange reconcile these seemingly contradictory concepts?
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Old 2013-04-03, 10:18   Link #32084
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Well, how about this?

Yasu knew that Ange's presence would keep the game from working. Even at age 6, Ange didn't go for that witch magic stuff, and she would probably be kept with Maria most of the time since they are of simillar age. Therefore, Ange's presence would effectively neutralize her ability to use Maria in the game and make her difficulty level impossibly high.

For this reason, Yasu arranged for Ange to not be there on the island. She reached out to Kyrie directly, or maybe through Genji, and suggested that Ange and Maria weren't getting along well, so maybe it would be best for everyone if she just happens to have the flu.
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Old 2013-04-03, 11:11   Link #32085
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Well, from a meta-standpoint, Beatrice was the one "keeping Battler from coming back".
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Old 2013-04-03, 11:24   Link #32086
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Well, from a meta-standpoint, Beatrice was the one "keeping Battler from coming back".
Yeah, but that has no meaning in a "real" Ange sense. Only Meta-Ange has that notion, and only because Bern told her so. The "real" Ange wouldn't believe that a witch is literally entrapping her brother, but would see it as metaphorical.

Yet her interest in Beatrice as a culprit seems to evaporate whenever Eva comes up, and then Eva gets blamed. Yet if her thought is "Eva killed everybody and then covered it up," why would she (1) believe Battler could ever return, since Eva must've killed him too; and (2) think anything in particular about Maria's "Beatrice" is relevant, given that "Beatrice" was not Eva and thus didn't have anything to do with it?

Does she think they were working together? I mean the whole ep7 Tea Party vaguely explains a way that a parent could be the culprit but Beatrice could be somehow responsible, and she freaks out over that. Granted part of it is the choice of culprits, but still, it's like she's never considered the idea before. So how does she balance this interest in "Beatrice" with her supposed certainty that Eva did it?
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Old 2013-04-03, 11:39   Link #32087
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Ange's attitude towards Eva is just freaking WEIRD, to be honest. It's not consistent at all. During most of EP4 aside from the Okonogi conversation, she doesn't actually seem to particularly suspect Eva at any point! Instead she seems to be keeping an open mind, trying to look into every possibility - and at the end she even seems to forgive Eva and realise that it was her sadness at losing her family which caused her to be so cruel to Ange, which would imply that she certainly doesn't believe her to be responsible for the incident. And there are also a lot of points in EP4 where Ange seems to be pretty certain that Beatrice is in fact the culprit. We even have some lines that pretty much state that she doesn't really suspect Eva any more:

Quote:
......Maybe Eva oba-san was also one of the targets to be killed. Eva oba-san had survived... because something had gone wrong.

.........Because I had hated Eva oba-san, I had come to believe that she had to be the culprit.

But the existence of the message bottle, .........had made me suspect that the mastermind was a far more profound and unknown person than her...
Yet when we get to EP8, we have a complete turnaround, and all the development from EP4 seems to have been erased to the point where Ange is just completely obsessed with the certainty that Eva is the culprit, refusing to consider any other possibility. It's really bizarre how her character is almost "retconned" in EP8 for no obvious reason.
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Old 2013-04-03, 11:58   Link #32088
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don't forgot that a lot of EP4 and a lot of EP8 is just part of a fictional story and we have 2 gamemasters in EP8, which makes it even more complicated.
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Old 2013-04-03, 13:04   Link #32089
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Yet when we get to EP8, we have a complete turnaround, and all the development from EP4 seems to have been erased to the point where Ange is just completely obsessed with the certainty that Eva is the culprit, refusing to consider any other possibility. It's really bizarre how her character is almost "retconned" in EP8 for no obvious reason.
Stranger still, even if we assume she never learned the info she learns in ep4, she is aware of the message bottles existing. There's no way she can't be.

So if her thought process in ep4 makes sense - and it does, certainly - she must know there was something else at work. How can she just suddenly ignore that information in ep8? I can't recall her even mentioning the message bottles. And that's strange, because, um... Battler and Beatrice talk about the message bottles on Battler's board. Like, in front of her. There is no possible way she could forget about that detail.

She also switches around to blaming Beatrice at random during the fight with her over Eva's diary. A diary that she is trying to obtain in order to prove that Eva did it. And she obtains it by... accusing Beatrice of being the one who is killing her.

Does anything Ange does in ep8 make the slightest bit of sense, even to her?
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Old 2013-04-03, 13:59   Link #32090
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Yeah, but that has no meaning in a "real" Ange sense. Only Meta-Ange has that notion, and only because Bern told her so. The "real" Ange wouldn't believe that a witch is literally entrapping her brother, but would see it as metaphorical.

Yet her interest in Beatrice as a culprit seems to evaporate whenever Eva comes up, and then Eva gets blamed. Yet if her thought is "Eva killed everybody and then covered it up," why would she (1) believe Battler could ever return, since Eva must've killed him too; and (2) think anything in particular about Maria's "Beatrice" is relevant, given that "Beatrice" was not Eva and thus didn't have anything to do with it?

Does she think they were working together? I mean the whole ep7 Tea Party vaguely explains a way that a parent could be the culprit but Beatrice could be somehow responsible, and she freaks out over that. Granted part of it is the choice of culprits, but still, it's like she's never considered the idea before. So how does she balance this interest in "Beatrice" with her supposed certainty that Eva did it?
Right. Well, in "real life", the illusion of Beatrice is one of the things obscuring the truth for everyone. Ange has a pretty strong conviction that Eva is responsible, but maybe her confidence is shaken by this 'Beatrice' image in the message bottles? Or if we take EP8's "oh hey just pretend they're alive" message into account, 'Beatrice' claims to have killed off everybody on Rokkenjima, which seems to shatter Ange's hope that "somebody is alive." Defeating Beatrice = "Battler can return."
I'm not sure what to do after this, so it's just a thought.

I prefer to believe that Ange just doesn't fucking know anything about anything and is just indecisive.
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Old 2013-04-03, 16:35   Link #32091
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Don't forget that Beatrice is not just a personality of Yasu. In more Meta layers, she also represents the mystery, and every other mystery regarding Rokkenjima in the 80s and beyond, just like Dlanor represents Knox rules or Lambda Delta represents willpower. In that sense, Ange could easily hate Beatrice-the-mystery while also blaming and hating Eva-the-suspected-culprit.

Or, she could also think that there was a conspiracy or accomplice thing going on. Prime is not obligated to follow Knox rules after all. She could easily believe that the impersonator of 'Beatrice' and 'Eva' were two culprits working together.

I don't really remember her as blaming Eva early in ep 8 though. She seems to come in to the game unsure of the culprit and hating that person and then independently of that hating Eva because she did a lousy job of parenting when she came back and always made her feel inadequate next to George.
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Old 2013-04-03, 16:50   Link #32092
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The scene where Erika saves Ange from goats suggests that Ange is blaming Eva only to make sure that her own family is innocent. She is using Eva culprit theory as a shield against Rudolf/Kyrie(/Battler) culprit theory.
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Old 2013-04-03, 16:58   Link #32093
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I don't really remember her as blaming Eva early in ep 8 though. She seems to come in to the game unsure of the culprit and hating that person and then independently of that hating Eva because she did a lousy job of parenting when she came back and always made her feel inadequate next to George.
She does quite a bit, actually. She mentions it a time or two early in Battler's game and there's the "child soldier" conversation with Amakusa where she talks about being motivated as much by revenge as by any desire to know the truth. It falls by the wayside with the "Eva and Ange teaming up to solve the riddles" part, but it's definitely there.

If anything, Ange in ep8 seems far, far less interested in the actual truth than she does in ep4.
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Old 2013-04-03, 17:06   Link #32094
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Ange's attitude towards Eva is just freaking WEIRD, to be honest. It's not consistent at all. During most of EP4 aside from the Okonogi conversation, she doesn't actually seem to particularly suspect Eva at any point! Instead she seems to be keeping an open mind, trying to look into every possibility - and at the end she even seems to forgive Eva and realise that it was her sadness at losing her family which caused her to be so cruel to Ange, which would imply that she certainly doesn't believe her to be responsible for the incident. And there are also a lot of points in EP4 where Ange seems to be pretty certain that Beatrice is in fact the culprit. We even have some lines that pretty much state that she doesn't really suspect Eva any more:



Yet when we get to EP8, we have a complete turnaround, and all the development from EP4 seems to have been erased to the point where Ange is just completely obsessed with the certainty that Eva is the culprit, refusing to consider any other possibility. It's really bizarre how her character is almost "retconned" in EP8 for no obvious reason.
Yes, I hated how Ange was handled in EP 8.
In Ep 4 she had seemed to have reached a more mature view over the incident, she considered Eva might not be the culprit, she understood Eva's reasons, she accepted Maria's inner world, she was sorry she had to break Beato's golden land but deemed more important to have Battler back, she even seemed to understand how the game worked better than Battler and she was willing to sacrifice herself for a more important cause (in the beginning she didn't accept Lambda's proposition and when she revealed herself to Battler she did so to help him).

In short Ange of Ep 4 was cool enough.

Ange of Ep 8 is a child who keeps whining she wants to know the truth but she's not really searching it or trying to understand it and that gets nothing of the game (Bern will make her ponder over it but she'll still fail to understand she just moved from being a piece on Battler's game to being a piece on Bern's game), insists on placing the blame on Eva even when it's clear Eva is protecting her, rejects the idea of magic stepping over people's feelings, clings to Battler, have hysteric moments, insist everyone is 'having fun' in the golden land and they're mean because they're leaving her out and, in short, acts like a spoiled 6 year old.

What's worse is there was no logic reason for this complete change in her.

Of course it can be that Meta Ange from Ep 4 is just a metaphorical representation for 'Battler's wish to return to his sister', some sort of moral support and guidance, while Ange from Ep 8 is something else entirely...
but it still comes out pretty confusing.

Also I don't think Ange met Beato. I'm not sure Maria and Ange were on the island together in days in which there wasn't the family conference and I think it's unlikely Beato would have showed herself to Ange if not on Maria's prompting.

So, about the conferences...

I'll say at best Maria met Beato in 1983 (when the epitaph was showed in 1984 Maria already knew of the magic toxin, something Beato told her) and we know that she was alone back then. We also know in 1985 Ange went to the family conference but felt sick so Maria went to play with Beato alone.

There would be the chance Ange met Beato in 1984, when she was 4 but somehow I doubt it as likely Maria was still building her friendship with Beato and it's possible Marriage Sorcierer didn't exist yet. As the family conference lasts usually one day and we know Beato advised Maria not to introduce Ange to it I don't think there was the time for them to make Marriage Sorciere and then try to present Beato to Ange.

Of course all this is pretty theoretical as we don't really know how many times Ange and Maria were on Rokkenjima together... though I think Maria told Ange prior to the incident she knew 'Beatrice' which caused in Ange to grow the idea she could be a real person.

On the other side 'Beatrice' for Ange can be just a metaphorical representation of the situation his family ended up facing and that finished with covering the truth so defeating Beatrice would merely means defeating those particular circumstances and either discovering one of her family members is alive and will come back or discovering the truth.

It's interesteng though how we're also introduced to Eva-Beatrice as if the tie between Eva and that setting was pretty deep, let's say more deep than the one Natsuhi could have (there's no Natsuhi-Beatrice in Ep 5 even if she's the one holding up the illusion in Ep 5 and Beato and Co seem merely her fantasy) or Rosa-Beatrice (Rosa has her own alter ego of Evil Witch, both mentioned in Ep 2 and 4 but she's never associated to Beatrice).
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Old 2013-04-03, 18:25   Link #32095
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Quote:
Yes, I hated how Ange was handled in EP 8.
In Ep 4 she had seemed to have reached a more mature view over the incident, she considered Eva might not be the culprit, she understood Eva's reasons, she accepted Maria's inner world, she was sorry she had to break Beato's golden land but deemed more important to have Battler back, she even seemed to understand how the game worked better than Battler and she was willing to sacrifice herself for a more important cause (in the beginning she didn't accept Lambda's proposition and when she revealed herself to Battler she did so to help him).

In short Ange of Ep 4 was cool enough.

Ange of Ep 8 is a child who keeps whining she wants to know the truth but she's not really searching it or trying to understand it and that gets nothing of the game (Bern will make her ponder over it but she'll still fail to understand she just moved from being a piece on Battler's game to being a piece on Bern's game), insists on placing the blame on Eva even when it's clear Eva is protecting her, rejects the idea of magic stepping over people's feelings, clings to Battler, have hysteric moments, insist everyone is 'having fun' in the golden land and they're mean because they're leaving her out and, in short, acts like a spoiled 6 year old.

What's worse is there was no logic reason for this complete change in her.
Battler never escaped the Logic Error. His opinion of Ange is lower than we all thought.
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Old 2013-04-05, 10:40   Link #32096
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Well, that's something only Rudolf should know as it's assumed he's the son of Asumu... and anyway later on Kyrie also married Rudolf.



... I'm not sure I'm following you...
Kyrie latter married Rudolf indeed, doesn't change Battler was born by a noone.


I'm saying names are important in Umineko and aren't just for "decoration".
Afterall:
"The Corpse that cannot return to Earth."
"George: From the Greek name Γεωργιος (Georgios) which was derived from the Greek word γεωργος (georgos) itself derived from the element γη (ge) "earth"."
The Corpse that cannot return to George.
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Old 2013-04-05, 13:18   Link #32097
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We're talking about the guy who named Kyrie, Ange and Asumu after Ragnarok Online spell names here. I wouldn't read too deeply into Ryukishi's choices of character names.
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Old 2013-04-05, 14:15   Link #32098
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Old 2013-04-06, 03:03   Link #32099
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Toddlers generally do, unless it's "Full House" or something.
Man, a six-year old is not a toddler.

I dunno how it holds with a lot of the other things I believe are true, but it seems most logical to assume that Yasu may well have just suggested leaving Ange at home, since she would be a far less easily coerced element that literally everybody else. Sure, it could still work if Ange was written in, but, hey, we get a strong thread to the post-1986 world. Better than GOdha's mom, or Natsuhi's brother, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter View Post
In that sense, Ange could easily hate Beatrice-the-mystery while also blaming and hating Eva-the-suspected-culprit.
This is how I tend to think of the Ange/Beatrice dynamic. Agreed.
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Kyrie latter married Rudolf indeed, doesn't change Battler was born by a noone.
Small thing on this bit - so long as Rudolf was willing to acknowledge any children he had, I doubt being born out of wedlock would affect the child's place TOO much. After all, Rudolf was basically going to financially support Kyrie anyways, and seemed more embarassed by being caught with two babies than the idea of being disowned, or whatevs.

Also, it bears to mention that Kyrie IS from a pretty high-profile family (even if she DID get disowned), whereas Asumu was, as far as we're told, just some girl he met in college. I'm assuming from the brief comments Battler makes about living with Asumu's parents compared to living with Rudolf (which he called really extravagant, or something like that), that her social/financial background was nothing notable.

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Old 2013-04-06, 05:53   Link #32100
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Am I right if I say anyone who survives the prime of tragedies (Rika, Battler,Eva,Ange) become witches? Rika splits into Bernkastel because of a so-called Miracle, Battler earns the title Lord BATTLER, Golden Endless Sorcerer of Miracles because his survival has a low chance but absolutely happens anyway and guardian Lambdadelta, Eva becomes EVA-BEATRICE because she was the only one alive(Battler dies, becomes Tohya) inherits the gold and guardian Lambdadelta because she certainly survives, Ange because she certainly survives the tragedy and also an inheritor of the gold.
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