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Old 2013-04-06, 06:19   Link #32101
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroberus View Post
Am I right if I say anyone who survives the prime of tragedies (Rika, Battler,Eva,Ange) become witches? Rika splits into Bernkastel because of a so-called Miracle, Battler earns the title Lord BATTLER, Golden Endless Sorcerer of Miracles because his survival has a low chance but absolutely happens anyway and guardian Lambdadelta, Eva becomes EVA-BEATRICE because she was the only one alive(Battler dies, becomes Tohya) inherits the gold and guardian Lambdadelta because she certainly survives, Ange because she certainly survives the tragedy and also an inheritor of the gold.
Then what about Yasu-Beatrice? What about Virgillia? Well Yasu has (supposedly) survived a fall from a cliff as a baby, so that may count. But Virgillia/Kumasawa?
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Old 2013-04-06, 09:50   Link #32102
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Maria became a witch and didn't survive. So what's up with that?
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Old 2013-04-06, 10:12   Link #32103
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Maria became a witch and didn't survive. So what's up with that?
Maria was only a "witch apprentice" though. Ange was as well, but Ange is a special case because she was not present at the incident.
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Old 2013-04-06, 15:22   Link #32104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Maria became a witch and didn't survive. So what's up with that?
Or did she? Metal Jaw Maria.
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Old 2013-04-07, 07:18   Link #32105
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Guys I was thinking on EP3. 'Why did George leave the guesthouse'. Okay so George approached the window, was looking outside and saw who? Shannon.
Shannon, in other words, Yasu looked at him and ran away. George was shocked, he opened the window and jumped. Nanjo, as he was told, locked the window.
At this time, Natsuhi and Krauss are in the lobby.
They SAW George outside from the big window and left the mansion as well. Eva is somewhere else, trying to calm herself down.
Nanjo goes back to the first floor and locks the door with Chain. What the idiot did not figure out was that this was a trap by Yasu to make someone suspect one of the people inside the guesthouse.
So when Battler proposed the theory that someone might have locked the window and the door with a chain, he went really pale.
(He then, to save his ass told Battler that 'this might have been the work of the witch' which Battler immediately denied.
As for how George, Natsuhi and Krauss died. Kratsuhi thought that the culprit was George. There was some scuffle and they shot at him.
Yasu got mad and killed them (Because the plan she wanted to do with George failed.), then damaged their necks so that it would look like they were strangled.
In other words, almost the same thing as Kyrie, Rudolf and Hideko death. What do you think?
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Old 2013-04-11, 02:07   Link #32106
Simplice Cantabile
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What follows is a theory dump. Sorry, I wrote it in one go and didn't proofread.


The Umineko series includes eight stories obeying the constraint "In the story, 11 members of the Ushiromiya family and a doctor visit the island of Rokkenjima. Precisely as the day 1986-10-05 ends, an intense explosion occurs. Only Eva returns from the island. Those who were thought to be on the island before 1986-10-04, including the head of the family, Kinzo, are never heard from again." A story obeying this constraint is a fragment, the set of all fragments is called the catbox.

Ryukishi07 writes the eight fragments presented in Umineko using the format of the murder mystery. False narration occurs in the presentation of the fragments, and the presentations employ meta-characters (non-piece-Battler, for instance). The use of multi-colored truths makes reasoning about culprits and alibis in these mysteries especially enjoyable for the reader.

-----------------------
A quick tangent for a theory on the kinds of truths.


A red truth for some fragment is a statement which agrees with reality in that fragment.

A spoken blue truth is a statement which, as far as the speaker can tell, is consistent with reality.

A spoken gold truth is a statement such that the statement being false, in the speaker's opinion, tarnishes the inherent beauty of reality.

A quick note on the gold truth. Gold truth is very powerful in fragments created by someone like Beatrice, who desires to show a beautiful reality. In other words, if one, say Battler, "turns the chessboard around" on the game master, he could make a statement like
"The killer must have a motive." because a killer without a motive is without a nuance of beauty, and hence Beatrice wouldn't have such a thing in her fragment. However, Gold truth is useless in many fragments created by the Trollkastel types.

------------
And back to the main theory-dump.

These murder-mysteries are framed in a box narrative; we are being shown the stories which haunt Ange. Ange's torture is as follows: If she chooses to believe that every terrible thing in any fragment is possible, she is left with a hideous view of her family. Instead, if she chooses to believe some fragment she enjoys, then she lives with the inability to prove that the fragment occurred: this merely draws out her torture.

The box narrative as a whole comes to a close in the second half of the eight episode as:
Spoiler for Ep 8 spoilers:



And now for some fun.


Ryukishi07 included ideas from fan theories in later episodes and never made a show of retconning details! If each of the fragments shown describe a single version of events, then Ryukishi07 must have planned all of the eight episodes before writing the first! But then, to stay in lines with the plan, Ryukishi07's writing would constantly be limited by a complicated arrangement of artificial boundaries! But a complex explanation is inferior to a simpler one! This is Occam's razor! Hence,

(thunderclap sound)

the fragments shown may represent different versions of reality!

(What do you think, everyone?)
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Old 2013-04-11, 02:36   Link #32107
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Or did she? Metal Jaw Maria.
Well Maria certainly has no reason to leave the island since she loves Beatrice and Rosa is simply a bitch, the rest is pretty obvious as far as i'm concerned.
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Old 2013-04-11, 11:34   Link #32108
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Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
Well Maria certainly has no reason to leave the island since she loves Beatrice and Rosa is simply a bitch, the rest is pretty obvious as far as i'm concerned.
Except Rosa is her mother, who she loves unconditionally.

What reason does she have to leave the island? IT WAS EXPLODING.
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Old 2013-04-11, 12:40   Link #32109
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Except Rosa is her mother, who she loves unconditionally.

What reason does she have to leave the island? IT WAS EXPLODING.
Uuuu, Uuuu! But Beatrice! But Beatrice will save us all with magic! We will all go to the golden Land together, Uuuuu!....

...is what Maria would possibly say.
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Old 2013-04-11, 23:30   Link #32110
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"Beatrice already did that, she conjured up this tunnel to the Golden Land."
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Old 2013-04-12, 11:19   Link #32111
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
"Beatrice already did that, she conjured up this tunnel to the Golden Land."
Heh, it really is true... the "golden land" was at least once shown as the kuwadorian garden.
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Old 2013-04-12, 13:04   Link #32112
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Heh, it really is true... the "golden land" was at least once shown as the kuwadorian garden.
They are, in fact, the exact same place as the 1967 segments, just with the purple filter overlaying them.

It doesn't hurt that Kinzo's epitaph solution more or less describes the route as the way to the Golden Land... which sort of means wherever that set of directions takes you is the Golden Land.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
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This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2013-04-12, 17:47   Link #32113
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Dunno if anyone else has shared this already, but apparently Ryukushi has been answering questions "in-character" on Twitter. Nothing ground breaking, but mildly amusing nonetheless. https://twitter.com/07th_official

Some translations (Not by me.)

Quote:

on wanting yasu to be happy:

“Ryukishi: I think for that her, who lived for love, at the moment that was fulfilled, her life was fully completed. That’s why to preserve that feeling perfectly for eternity, so that no one could destroy it, she just wanted to quickly seal herself in the catbox.”

on what kind of food battler likes/dislikes:

“Ange: Onii-chan isn’t really picky. He likes his coffee black, of course. However, espresso is better. …by the way, Amakusa, why is my espresso this small? You drank mine, didn’t you.”

on battler’s favorite sport:

“Battler: My favorite sport is probably dodgeball. If there’d been a club for it, I totally would have joined. But hey, my hands are still in pursuit of certain spherical objects even now! Ihihi! Chasing these balls is fine even if I get hit in the face!”

how does lion get to school?

“Lion: Don’t worry. Even in elementary school, I rode myself to school. Really, the worrisome one is Will. That person is seriously useless at anything other than mystery. Listen, yesterday I asked him to take care of the laundry, and what do you think he did?! Honestly, he’s ridiculous…”

what subjects are tough for lion at school?

“Lion: I like most subjects, but probably the one I like least is English. It seems my pronunciation is too native - my classmates laughed at me, which was a little uncomfortable. I’m also skilled at cooking. Gender equality, after all. I think that regardless of gender, one should be able to stand in the kitchen.”


“Oh, Black Will! I think when he became an inquisitor he was pretty dark. A very harsh kid, definitely. I meant to write a short story with Will as the main character, when he was a rookie, but I shelved it. Umineko is a work that uses so much strength you can really only write it once in a lifetime.”

“Because of Bern’s personality, during the dark period of Will’s life, he was her favorite sort of “ruthless detective” type. But I think she was disappointed that he softened as he came close to retirement. She was looking forward to his old activities in EP 7… or some such.”

“Lion is intelligent, but hard-headed. Due to that, he’s really an ideal partner. By the way, I’m also quite curious as to how he can pinch people with his pointer and middle fingers.”

“I was surprised there was so much interest in talking about Will yesterday! So here’s one story with Will. Initially, at the end of EP 7, he was going to be consumed by the cats to let Lion escape. And then in EP 8, he appears as Bern’s piece, Black Will! …I had that sort of idea, but then Battler’s role would have been eaten.”

“I wanted to write about Battler and Shannon’s relationship with more care… as Umineko ended, that’s something that I regretted a bit. But that there are people who give a lot of thought to their relationship is something that both Yasu and I are very happy about.”
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Old 2013-04-12, 18:09   Link #32114
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
on wanting yasu to be happy:

“Ryukishi: I think for that her, who lived for love, at the moment that was fulfilled, her life was fully completed. That’s why to preserve that feeling perfectly for eternity, so that no one could destroy it, she just wanted to quickly seal herself in the catbox.”
What the hell is wrong with this man?

Quote:

on battler’s favorite sport:

“Battler: My favorite sport is probably dodgeball. If there’d been a club for it, I totally would have joined. But hey, my hands are still in pursuit of certain spherical objects even now! Ihihi! Chasing these balls is fine even if I get hit in the face!”
Battler is gay: Confirmed.

Quote:
what subjects are tough for lion at school?

“Lion: I like most subjects, but probably the one I like least is English. It seems my pronunciation is too native - my classmates laughed at me, which was a little uncomfortable. I’m also skilled at cooking. Gender equality, after all. I think that regardless of gender, one should be able to stand in the kitchen.”
Lion is a dude: Confirmed.

Quote:
“I was surprised there was so much interest in talking about Will yesterday! So here’s one story with Will. Initially, at the end of EP 7, he was going to be consumed by the cats to let Lion escape. And then in EP 8, he appears as Bern’s piece, Black Will! …I had that sort of idea, but then Battler’s role would have been eaten.”
Damn yo how come all the Black pieces have to be evil and shit? That's racist.
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Old 2013-04-12, 23:07   Link #32115
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Lion is a dude: Confirmed.
I knew it!
Actually that's rather conclusive, isn't it?
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Old 2013-04-12, 23:58   Link #32116
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Yea, there's like...no possible "Lion is a girl" room in there.
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Old 2013-04-13, 01:22   Link #32117
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If Bern had won against Battler and co., Black Will would have probably been the
Spoiler:
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Old 2013-04-13, 03:55   Link #32118
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If anyone has further translations of any other snippets or is willing to translate them, you've got a captive audience here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
What the hell is wrong with this man?
I don't know, but I intend to pretend that that specific attitude of his has nothing to do with Umineko canon. I can dream, can't I?

Aaaaaah I hope that forgery writers will abandon hope of canon compliance in regard to what will make Yasu happy. I really do. In this matter, I can have confidence that the fans can find better ways to deal with the story than the actual author.

But in any case...doesn't that statement of his rather imply that Yasu really was the culprit, or that she at the very least intended to kill herself and blow up the island? Damn it, Ryukishi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Lion is a dude: Confirmed.
I really liked the way that the matter was unconfirmed before, even though an educated guess would already have said that Lion's a guy. It was fun having a character of ambiguous, unknown gender around.
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Old 2013-04-13, 04:18   Link #32119
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Quote:
“I wanted to write about Battler and Shannon’s relationship with more care… as Umineko ended, that’s something that I regretted a bit. But that there are people who give a lot of thought to their relationship is something that both Yasu and I are very happy about.”
This is kind of cute actually.

I am completely unsurprised by Lion being a guy, but I am sort of surprised he actually confirmed it.

Quote:
But in any case...doesn't that statement of his rather imply that Yasu really was the culprit, or that she at the very least intended to kill herself and blow up the island? Damn it, Ryukishi.
To be fair, there were already plenty of interview quotes that implied those things. People just tend to conveniently ignore them.
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Old 2013-04-13, 07:17   Link #32120
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THANK YOU A LOT FOR THE TRANSLATION!


Quote:
on wanting yasu to be happy:

“Ryukishi: I think for that her, who lived for love, at the moment that was fulfilled, her life was fully completed. That’s why to preserve that feeling perfectly for eternity, so that no one could destroy it, she just wanted to quickly seal herself in the catbox.”
Because, of course, trying to live with Battler would completely make him understand she was underserving of his love and make him take it back.

Really I hope this 'sealing' is some sort of metaphor to say she erased her old self or something because I stay my case, if she killed herself just for that then it's stupid. But well, if Yasu really went through with her game just to make Battler remember she had already proved she's not the sharpest pencil in the box... and considering how many murders she did in cold blood I don't really feel like pitying her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
This is kind of cute actually.

I am completely unsurprised by Lion being a guy, but I am sort of surprised he actually confirmed it.
Well, in a way the manga also confirmed him making Lion much taller than Beato (Beato has to look up at him). If they were two girls there was no need to make such a marked height difference as Beato isn't even short for being a girl. Generally when such a marked height difference happens and it isn't even needed (Lion could have been represented of her same height) is because one of the two is a guy.

On a sidenote I'm pretty disgusted by Genji and Co's behaviour in all this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
To be fair, there were already plenty of interview quotes that implied those things. People just tend to conveniently ignore them.
Well, the quote said just that her love was confirmed and that, once it did, she wanted to seal herself in the catbox.

Her love could have been confirmed without her having to kill anyone but with the murders happening anyway. That quote seems to be a reference to Ep 8 ending in which, according to Battler, Beato didn't kill anyone. I don't really find this as conclusive evidence though I believe Yasu was definitely up on something and, although I'm not sure she pushed the trigger, she might have been a fundamental factor in others pushing it.
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