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Old 2013-04-06, 10:00   Link #701
Demi.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoki View Post
So can one be a Nanoha and Fate fan without being a NanoFate fan?

Because I am a Nanoha and Fate fan. However, I don't really believe that Nanoha likes Fate or vice versa in that way. In my eyes, they're more like really best friends, or I think the term is platonic life partners.

And arguing with rabid fans of a certain pairing, while fun to do, gets old after a while.
It's certainly possible. I am fine with them being either friends or lovers. I don't really care either way. I just enjoy the dynamic they have to whichever end that meets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya
Case in point, I'm a fan of Yuuno and Hayate, but I don't ship them together (unless I feel like exploring what that relationship could be like).
Nanoha and Fate are mainly shipped because of how they act around each other. Not simply because one likes both Nanoha and Fate.
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Old 2013-04-06, 10:01   Link #702
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Well Haru must turn into a completely different fellow when NanoFate is threatened, because he seems like a very helpful/friendly guy to me.

Though not romantically involved? Were they romantically involved with some one else?
As I said, it is a very complicated fic, with a complicated angle to their relationship. Nanoha died a few years after StrikerS, only to wake up as a clone(created by Jail) in a dystopic future ruled by Hayate with Fate as her right-hand Enforcer. They've taken the path of Regius, believing that they have to go much farther to protect people, after losing Nanoha (and a few others).

In the intervening years, Fate and Yuuno did end up marrying to help take care of Vivio together, but later divorced. But I also strongly hint that Fate has strong feelings for Nanoha, which leads to her conflict when she is asked to bring the Nanoha Clone in. The emotional moments throughout that fic that focus on NanoFate, is complex and can't adequately be explained as friendship or lovers. It's just something you have to read to decide for yourself.

Oh, and Haru hasn't actually read the fic. He/She just deleted it without reading it.
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Old 2013-04-06, 10:10   Link #703
Triple_R
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
We're dealing with an already established cast with Innocent, so there is no need to do yet another tragic past.
We're dealing with an already established cast with the Nanoha A's movie, so there is no need to establish everything we already know about these characters.

That would throw a rather big wrench into your Nanoha A's movie critiques, wouldn't it?

If it's not acceptable for the movie, why is it acceptable for the manga? In both cases, you want to appeal to brand new viewers/readers, right?


Quote:
And Force and Vivid prove another point I made before, about how you don't need NanoFate focus to make this series successful.
Vivid sells better than Force, according to what Keroko told me. Which of the two has more NanoFate focus?

NanoFate brings the series more commercial success.


Quote:
Hence, you can drop the NanoFate scenes and the dream eater sequence, and the A's movie would still have been successful. Otaku will still buy everything regardless.
People underestimate Otaku sometimes. Some people used to think that Otaku would by anything "KyoAni", but that has been proven false in recent years. Otaku can be discerning.

What you call "fluff" is material that moe fans tend to love. If you remove too much "fluff", you lose many of those moe fans. This is the cute, heartwarming material that, like it or not, they want.


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Then you aren't really reading anyone's posts,
Sure I am. When people are consistently, if not constantly, belaboring an argument against NanoFate's impact on the Nanoha franchise, that's rather suggestive.


Quote:
when they've tried to explain their nuanced viewpoint.
Yes, because nothing says "nuanced" like arguing that a romance between two major characters is ruining an entire franchise.


Quote:
You see things only as a binary like/dislike,
No, I don't. But if I truly liked something, I wouldn't spend most of my time expressing criticism of it and its effect on the franchise. That seems rather odd to me.


Quote:
If you truly think I hate NanoFate, then you haven't read chapter 21 of Future Tense.
People can inject things into fanfics simply to win over and/or please the fanfic's readership. I'll admit that I myself have done this a little bit. It's hardly unthinkable.

If you like NanoFate, then please tell us what you like about it.
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Old 2013-04-06, 10:10   Link #704
Demi.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
As I said, it is a very complicated fic, with a complicated angle to their relationship. Nanoha died a few years after StrikerS, only to wake up as a clone(created by Jail) in a dystopic future ruled by Hayate with Fate as her right-hand Enforcer. They've taken the path of Regius, believing that they have to go much farther to protect people, after losing Nanoha (and a few others).

In the intervening years, Fate and Yuuno did end up marrying to help take care of Vivio together, but later divorced. But I also strongly hint that Fate has strong feelings for Nanoha, which leads to her conflict when she is asked to bring the Nanoha Clone in. The emotional moments throughout that fic that focus on NanoFate, is complex and can't adequately be explained as friendship or lovers. It's just something you have to read to decide for yourself.

Oh, and Haru hasn't actually read the fic. He/She just deleted it without reading it.
It does sound like a sketchy thing to upload to a site that's all about NanoFate fluff. Not saying he should have banned the user, but I can see it being quite controversial on a site like that. You have to remember that sites focal point is NanoFate, and anything beyond that is likely to be frowned upon. That, and it seems like a pretty tragic scenario for NanoFate to be in.
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Old 2013-04-06, 10:12   Link #705
Hoki
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Sure, it's fun to ship two characters you're a fan of together, but you don't have to be a fan of the ship to be fans of the characters.
I'm just asking since most people think like this:

"I'm a Nanoha fan. I'm a Fate fan too. Therefore when I put them together in a story, even if I try to avoid having any romantic subtext, I support NanoFate. Hence I'm a NanoFate fan."

There's a term for that, though it escapes me at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
As I said, it is a very complicated fic, with a complicated angle to their relationship. Nanoha died a few years after StrikerS, only to wake up as a clone(created by Jail) in a dystopic future ruled by Hayate with Fate as her right-hand Enforcer. They've taken the path of Regius, believing that they have to go much farther to protect people, after losing Nanoha (and a few others).

In the intervening years, Fate and Yuuno did end up marrying to help take care of Vivio together, but later divorced. But I also strongly hint that Fate has strong feelings for Nanoha, which leads to her conflict when she is asked to bring the Nanoha Clone in. The emotional moments throughout that fic that focus on NanoFate, is complex and can't adequately be explained as friendship or lovers. It's just something you have to read to decide for yourself.
I would vouch for this. It really is a great piece of work. I even made the trope page for it.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2013-04-06 at 11:25. Reason: merging double-posts
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Old 2013-04-06, 10:43   Link #706
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I don't know why I'm doing this, but... I think I want to talk about the 3 critical moments characters have in a series/season that defines them and turns them into main characters.

And, well, this is long, so, wall of text warning.

Now this only really applies to main characters, not the antagonistic big bads of a season as they don't need those same moments. You could just have the bad guy kick a puppy and blow up an orphanage for no reason other than to be evil and that's their motivation. Not that that works in Nanoha, but anyway...

Nanoha herself in Season 1 had 3 moments that clearly defined her character. The first moment was the incident with the tree Jewel Seed monster and how she, despite doing her best in the situation, felt that she failed and people got hurt because of her. So, with that, she vowed to try even harder than her best, which would cause her to push herself so hard that she would end up injured between A's and StrikerS.

Another moment in Season 1 was the flashback that Arisa and Suzuka had to when Nanoha first met them and it showed us that Nanoha was willing to jump into other people's problems if it caused them to stop hurting others. She wasn't afraid to fight, but she preferred talking, which is one of the reasons she reaches out to Fate and Vita in S1 and A's.

The third moment is tied to her family. One of the first moments of Shiro on screen was seeing him badly scarred and wondering how that happened. Especially when we see him as someone who works in a bakery and, presumably, teaches Kyouya and Miyuki how to use swords. Then he later tells Momoko that he won't ever do something like that again, which, again, makes us wonder what the hell happened if you didn't know about Triangle Hearts 3. Finally, when we do find out that Nanoha was left all alone at age 4 because her father was badly injured, her wanting to make Fate's pain go away makes a lot of sense, because she had to deal with the pain of being alone and lonely.

In A's, her moments are actually pretty close together in the first couple of episodes.

After Vita smashed her, broke Raising Heart and threw her into the building, she was still, barely able to stay conscious, willing to point Raising Heart at Vita, but she knew she was over-matched, so she calls out to Yuuno and Fate, showing that she has trust and belief in her friends to help her out, thus showing she knows that she can't do everything on her own, even if she tries hard to do that.

Another moment in A's that defined her character was when Raising Heart, despite having a hard time functioning, was trying to complete the Starlight Breaker Plus. Nanoha shows more worry for Raising Heart than she does for herself, despite being just as injured as her device. It also doubles as a defining moment for Raising Heart because it shows that her device is just as much a determinator as Nanoha is, as shown by the next moment, when Shamal grabs Nanoha's Linker Core and starts draining. Nanoha, despite this, fires the Starlight Breaker Plus, utterly shattering the barrier.

Those six moments in 2 seasons clearly define Nanoha's character. No matter what you take out or put in, without those six moments in two seasons, you don't have Nanoha.

Nanoha's real character development, not defining moments, comes in StrikerS when she's older and has been injured in the past. She shows that she doesn't want others to go through what she has, though we only find out about that later with the Teana issues. There's also Vivio, who helps give Nanoha some real development and even more defining character moments by showing her as someone who thinks that what she went through, even if she doesn't want the negative stuff to happen, is okay to go through. Fate, on the other hand, points out that this is wrong as not everyone is like that. And, finally, again, this is linked to Vivio, but Nanoha, despite the Riot Force shattered, friends injured and damage everywhere, only breaks down when she sees the plush bunny she got for Vivio in tatters and later when she sees Vivio on the screen in pain. It pushes home the point that, yes, she does love Vivio as her daughter.

Now let's look at Fate.

Fate's moment in Season 1 that defines her as a character is when she blasts Mr. Snuggles (as I call him in my fic. ) and how she doesn't show any regret for doing so despite the cat being just a kitten. This establishes her as the counterpart of Nanoha, who always tries to make things easy on her opponents, Fate's more likely to deal pain and take the hard way out in situations (in this regard, she reminds me of Rika from Digimon Tamers). However, the next defining trait comes just as we meet Arf, showing that she, despite how she acts, is rather nice, she just hides it pretty well.

The third thing is something that she shares with a lot of abused children. Loyalty to the one abusing them simply because they still love and care for them. Despite being chained up and whipped by Precia so badly that she can barely walk, has scars all over her back, arms, legs and rear, Fate still defends Precia and would fight to the death for Precia if Precia just once said that she loved her. This establishes that Fate is loyal to a fault to someone that she loves and cares about.

In A's, her Big Damn Heroes moment along with Yuuno continues that trend as she's loyal to Nanoha and friends with Yuuno by now. When Signum took her down, she shrugs off Yuuno's question and, despite her arm getting injured sometime during the fight, gets back in after fixing Bardiche and she still keeps a cool head, despite being reckless enough to keep fighting Signum, during her fight.

Another defining moment is actually a series of moments for Fate involving her going to school, getting a cell phone and being with Lindy. It shows that, despite being cool, she's an incredibly shy character and has some trouble relating fully with others at times.

Her rivalry with Signum is another moment for Fate that helps define her character. How so? It shows that she's going beyond the girl who pushed others away and only wanted one person to care for her to someone who realizes she has others to care for her now and she's willing to reach out to others to help them realize that they're not alone either.

This would come to a head in StrikerS when she adopts Caro and Erio (though Lindy was Erio's guardian originally because Fate was too young). It also shows up when Fate scolds Nanoha for being too rough on Vivio, showing, again, the contrast between the two that works really well.

Her final moment in StrikerS actually comes, shockingly enough, from Jail. It still shows that, despite being older, more confident and having people that love her, Fate is still deeply worried that she'll end up like Precia and become a monster who will hurt those she loves and only is with them because she plans on using them.

I'm going to look at Hayate next and her moments.

When we first meet Hayate, she's a girl in a wheelchair, thus we feel sympathy for her, but her real defining trait comes from the fact that she's living alone so when she gets a family, she clings to them tightly and loves them without reservation, which is the catalyst for the Wolkenritter to change from mindless killing machines (how they were in the past) to being more friendly as we saw in the show.

Another moment that defines Hayate is her relationship with others that aren't the Wolkenritter. The girl hasn't really had too many people in her life and, being young, never had the thought of betrayal enter her mind. Thus, when the twins played Nanoha and Fate and killed Vita in front of Hayate, she felt deeply betrayed by two girls she thought were her friends and, deep down, she wanted to make them suffer for what they did to her family (yes, kids lack empathy at times)

The final moment is when the case wraps up, Hayate, instead of getting off scott-free because she wasn't behind anything, takes responsibility for her family, showing that, even if she didn't do anything wrong, she still feels responsible for the Wolkenritter, and, of course, losing Reinforce deeply saddened her, so she doesn't want to lose the Wolkenritter or deal with the sadness like that again.

Which leads to StrikerS and her forming Riot Force Six. Sadly, Hayate gets shunted to the background, thus losing chances to, like Fate and Nanoha, get character defining moments in the season. Still, she got to blow stuff up and commented that, despite being SS rank in power, she's kind of clumsy with her magic.

Now we'll look at Yuuno.

He's a secondary main character, so, unlike Fate, Nanoha or Hayate, three direct mains, his moments can be more spread out over the series and it doesn't hurt him as much.

His first defining moment doesn't come up until Arf attacks and he shows that he can quickly cast teleportation magic, much to Arf's shock. And earlier with his floater field to protect Nanoha, and him standing between Nanoha and Fate when Fate looked at Nanoha before turning and walking away does show that Yuuno is fiercely loyal to his friends, so much so that, as seen later in Season 1, he's willing to ignore the TSAB and send Nanoha down to help Fate out.

Another defining trait for Yuuno is that, yes, he is good at using magic, he's the one who taught Nanoha how to use it, how to use the binds that she likes to use and how to use other tricks. This ties into the above scenes with teleportation and floater fields, but he does show that he's not completely helpless, even if Raising Heart didn't become a jeweled staff for him.

Finally, you get his moments in A's. His first one of being there with Fate to protect Nanoha ties into his fiercely loyal towards his friends. He was quite content to sit out the first fight and focus on healing Nanoha while Fate fought, it was only after Zafira and Signum show up that he gets up and gets into the fight. He puts a healing barrier around Nanoha and the first thing he does is check on Fate to make sure that she's alright. He then goes and takes on Vita, the girl who injured Nanoha, and holds her off while trying to undo the barrier and healing Nanoha. This shows that not only is he good with magic, he's not bad in a fight, which was something that wasn't shown until that point.

Shamal's bolt of lightning that he was able to block. Not to mention the fact that he can create barriers that can keep the destructive power of Nanoha, Fate AND Hayate to a minimum show that the kid has insane defensive abilities on top of his teleportation, healing and bind skills.

I think, though, what really irritates me about Yuuno being put on a bus isn't the fact that we lose him as a romantic interest for Nanoha, Fate or any of the Yagami family, nor is it the fact that we lose a potentially interesting fighter/support mage for StrikerS, though, I admit, it is irksome.

No, what's really irritating about Yuuno going away is that we lose the dynamic friendship he has with Nanoha and Fate and how it could be used to further develop those two characters. There's also the potential for growth for Vita, Signum and Hayate in there, with Yuuno around we could have had Vita comment about his barriers in the StrikerS manga, or Signum commenting on how loyal he is. Or, heck, just the vast difference between Hayate and Yuuno in terms of what they can do could be something that 7Arcs should have gotten into more deeply. There's also, as some have pointed out, the potential for him to help develop Teana and Caro. Caro, because she's a support/summoner in a world of super offensive members and Yuuno could show her how to make her abilities even better while Teana would have an older male role model to look up to besides Vice.

So, by taking him out, we lose not only his dynamic friendship with Nanoha and Fate (not to mention his role of being one of Vivio's teachers and mentors, after all, he taught her the basics of her combat style, even if Nove helped her refine it later, as well as searching magic), but also the potential growth that he could have had for the Forwards.

I was going to go into Teana, Subaru and Jail, but I think this is long enough as it is.
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Old 2013-04-06, 10:59   Link #707
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Vivid features Nanoha and Fate's adopted daughter, and Nanoha and Fate show up often enough in cute homey scenes or in large practice battles or in the stands, cheering. In a big way, Vivid is "proof" of NanoFate, especially since Yuuno doesn't get one appearance or mention.
There's maybe one or two chapters of them in "cutey homey scenes" and the events on the arena is literally standing on the sidelines. This cannot, in any shape, way or form be called focus.

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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Sometimes I wonder if every active member left on this board has been wronged by a NanoFate fan at one point and lead them to hold some undying grudge against the pairing...Because I hear this sob story brought up often.
Mreh, I have, but I try not to let a few idiots turn it into a grudge. Besides, back in those days I was an idiot about the pairings of Nanoha as well. I never should have gotten involved with those debates with Haru.

My personal opinion on the pairing is... well, much the same as my opinion on Fate I guess. Just apathy. I can't find myself to care for the pairing. Oversaturation I think. I much prefer the rare times we see a NanoVita moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
And Force and Vivid prove another point I made before, about how you don't need NanoFate focus to make this series successful. Hence, you can drop the NanoFate scenes and the dream eater sequence, and the A's movie would still have been successful. Otaku will still buy everything regardless.
And yet in the quoted post you claim Tsuzuki is "only" focusing on Nanoha and Fate. Now you admit this is wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Vivid sells better than Force, according to what Keroko told me. Which of the two has more NanoFate focus?

NanoFate brings the series more commercial success.
Actually, initially Force outsold Vivid even though the early volume of Vivid had that happy family chapter. The lack of sales for Force in the ongoing years has more to do with the quality and opinion of Force's story and characters compared to Vivid.
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Old 2013-04-06, 11:05   Link #708
Sunder the Gold
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The only couples I ship are Arf/Zafira and those people who got married.

Other than that, I ship friendships and rivalries.

See, I like the possibilities of Nanoha/Yuuno, Nanoha/Fate, Hayate/Yuuno, Hayate/Vita, Stern/Yuuno, Stern/Nanoha, Reinforce/Yuuno... but confining myself to just one of those would prevent me from enjoying the others.

But friendships can have most of the good stuff about romantic relationships without the confining exclusivity. And friendship is the important theme of Lyrical Nanoha, not romance.
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Old 2013-04-06, 11:12   Link #709
FRS
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
...

Vivid sells better than Force, according to what Keroko told me. Which of the two has more NanoFate focus?

NanoFate brings the series more commercial success.
....
Eh i wouldnt jump to that conclusion, the main selling points of Vivid would be more seeing little girls fighting, they sometimes bring out the Nanoha/Fate as parent hook but it's clearly secondary or even tertiary.
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Old 2013-04-06, 11:13   Link #710
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoki View Post
I'm just asking since most people think like this:

"I'm a Nanoha fan. I'm a Fate fan too. Therefore when I put them together in a story, even if I try to avoid having any romantic subtext, I support NanoFate. Hence I'm a NanoFate fan."

There's a term for that, though it escapes me at the moment.
Well, there'd be nothing wrong with any of that, as long as you respect the opinions and tastes of others.

A respectful NanoFate fan is different from a militant NanoFei fanatic. If bith kinds get the same label, it's unintentional lumping for the sake of brevity.

Nanya and Kaijo have no problem with NanoFei fans like you, and may sometimes take it for granted that people will understand they aren't talking about ALL kinds of NanoFei fans; just the ones that are giving them trouble. Since those fans are the ones being discussed.

I mean, there are multiple species of tiger, but when people get to talking about Bengal tigers, they'll quickly just start saying "tigers" and assume anyone who has been following the conversation will understand that they aren't also refering to Siberian tigers.
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Old 2013-04-06, 11:17   Link #711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
We're dealing with an already established cast with the Nanoha A's movie, so there is no need to establish everything we already know about these characters.

That would throw a rather big wrench into your Nanoha A's movie critiques, wouldn't it?

If it's not acceptable for the movie, why is it acceptable for the manga? In both cases, you want to appeal to brand new viewers/readers, right?
What I mean is, with Innocent, we have the same characters we knew from a different timeline. A Vita fan is still going to read and like Vita in Innocent, even if it isn't the same Vita. What drew them to Vita, was what they saw in the original timeline, and Vita has much the same temperment. In other words, the work to establish Vita as a character a person likes, has already been done. There is no need to throw in a tragic backstory.

And the A's movie isn't for brand viewers; they at least have the 1st movie to go off of, if they are new.

Quote:
Vivid sells better than Force, according to what Keroko told me. Which of the two has more NanoFate focus?

NanoFate brings the series more commercial success.
I would not disagree with the statement that NanoFate appeals greatly to the otaku base and thus would bring in more revenue, but correlation is not causation. Vivid also has more loli girls and loli girl fanservice, which also appeals more to otaku.

And last I saw, the sales difference wasn't that great; I think Force had something like 90% of the sales that Vivid did. So, even if we accept it was because of the NanoFate factor, it isn't a large, insurmountable one.

Quote:
Yes, because nothing says "nuanced" like arguing that a romance between two major characters is ruining an entire franchise.

No, I don't. But if I truly liked something, I wouldn't spend most of my time expressing criticism of it and its effect on the franchise. That seems rather odd to me.
If a series has a decently large cast of characters, and the relationship between two people pushed 90% of the rest of the cast into the background where they got little to no development whatsoever, would you have a problem with it? It's a question of balance. If Chrono/Fate was focused on heavily and repeatedly, so much so that other things were pushed out, I'd have a problem with it, too. We are not against the relationship, per se, but would rather see it toned out such that other characters and relationships could have their chance to shine on the stage.

Quote:
People can inject things into fanfics simply to win over and/or please the fanfic's readership. I'll admit that I myself have done this a little bit. It's hardly unthinkable.
Heh, people that know me, from my postings in the FFT, know that I write what I wanna write. I may add a little bit here and there, but I don't majorly alter fics, or include blatant fanservice for audience reasons. Hell, I've had arguments about my fics with readers about what I chose to include or exclude.

I've written a fic where Yuuno, under the spell of a lost logia, sexually assaults Nanoha. Fate was an important part of that fic, too, because I see her as an important part of Nanoha's relationships. She wasn't the only one, but excluding her wouldn't have made literary sense.

Quote:
If you like NanoFate, then please tell us what you like about it.
As I mentioned before, what initially drew me into Nanoha was the A's Nanoha/Vita fight, and particularly when Yuuno and Fate showed up again. The tune playing at the time, "Blitz of Gold" (although I didn't know the name at the time), got my blood pumping with excitement. I wanted to see more. I wanted to see how this went, and what the relationships were behind these characters. How could a girl dressed in black, wielding an energy scythe, be a good guy as it appeared? That was certainly different, as magical girls before then primarily used pink, fluffy attacks, sometimes fire, sometimes water. But never a character who gave a "death-like" impression.

And so I searched, found S1, and watched it. I can't recall my exact feelings back then, but it did seem magical-girly, but knowing that scene was ahead kept me watching. I don't think it was until I saw Fate being whipped, and particularly Arf's reaction to it, that I really began to feel emotionally for the series. Fate truly was a broken girl, emphasize by how she tried to walk on her own after, and the near blank stare. This was a girl who was developed, and I could connect with and understand.

And then Nanoha was developed, as I learned about her backstory with Arisa and Suzuka, and it just clicked as to why Nanoha was reaching out to Fate. She didn't like conflict, but she was determined to fight anyway, in spite of the danger, because she understood that people on the other side are still human and have their own stories. She wanted to understand, more than anything else. The "she seems so lonely" line was a bit out there for me (since she could see Fate had Arf, so why would she be lonely?), but I rolled with it.

And then the culminating fight which was well-animated for even the low-budget S1, and Fate's recovery to the soundtrack of "Take a Shot" playing in the background with Fate saving Nanoha, and then shyly flying up close, and I felt an awesome feeling inside that Fate was recovering and that all Nanoha's attempts to get through finally succeeded. You could sense the joy and emotion in Nanoha's words there (and Arf's as well, as she tearfully hugged her master). And then later, the bridge scene, where a shy girl with no real knowledge of the outside world or how things go, had finally made a real friend. I was honestly happy for the two of them.

But I have to admit, I was looking forward to Fate making more than just one friend. That's partially why I liked the school scene in A's, and her getting together with Arisa and Suzuka as well. She was developing into a normal girl, and the journey was fun to watch. Nanoha's friends were becoming her friends; she was integrating with them. I was looking forward to seeing her friendship with everyone, like Yuuno. And after learning of the adoption, her relationships with Lindy and Chrono (the former was touched on, the latter wasn't).

So, I guess I have to admit that, for me, the fun was seeing Fate open up and gain a larger social circle. Nanoha was the start, the key, but I don't think it should have ended there. I wanted to see her integrate with more people. I liked the A's epilogue, where she was walking with Arisa, Suzuka, and Hayate as part of a circle of girl-friends, but I wish it wasn't reduced to that. As fun as it was to see Fate open up to and bond with Nanoha, it would have been equally fun to see her open up and bond with other people.

So, I guess I am more frustrated than anything else, that her other relationships are barely touched on. In StrikerS, we get that she has a history with Jail, but it's never expanded upon. We get that she has relationships with Erio and Caro, but they are barely touched upon. We get more than Jail, but we have to go to the manga to see the touching scenes of Fate getting through to Erio. I really wish that scene had been animated to give it more emotional oomph. Her hugging him despite him trying to shock her, really brought home the full circle of what Fate can do now.

So it's less the NanoFate dynamic for me, as it is seeing Fate now interacting and saving other people. That's partially why I wasn't real thrilled about reboot movies (and the movie 1st manga), because that was old ground. It was great, yes, but I prefer to see a journey more. I like reading a series of books that cover protagonists going on a journey and developing because of it... not going back to the start. And if someone feels compelled to go back to the start and redo, give a good reason why. The Fate/Precia/Linith backstory in the movie 1st was a bit acceptable because it was a new dimension to show, but the A's movie had no new dimensions. It was a rehash, a drastically cut rehash.

Hope this makes some sense.

Edit to add:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And yet in the quoted post you claim Tsuzuki is "only" focusing on Nanoha and Fate. Now you admit this is wrong?
It's true as far as the major media is concerned, the movies. It's more of a fear that started with the 1st movie, and was more brought out with the 2nd. If Vivid and Force were animated, and the reboots given to manga form, I'd probably be more okay with it, and not be as afraid that the focus was taking over.
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Old 2013-04-06, 11:18   Link #712
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FRS View Post
Eh i wouldnt jump to that conclusion, the main selling points of Vivid would be more seeing little girls fighting, they sometimes bring out the Nanoha/Fate as parent hook but it's clearly secondary or even tertiary.
Force doesn't promote NanoFei. They're both there to do a job, with no cute scenes together.

Vivid is about their adopted daughter and by extention the Takamachi-Testarossa family and by extention NanoFei romance. It's proof that NanoFei "won".
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Old 2013-04-06, 11:22   Link #713
relentlessflame
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Age: 31
Apparently nobody bothered reading the warning about this sort of shipping crap that has gone on for years and never ends.

Farewell, folks.
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