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Old 2013-04-06, 06:57   Link #121
JustRob
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Originally Posted by Sasukemaru View Post
Fine JustRob...Jiraiya didn't momentarily die then will himself back to life against Pain, all the characters who were there were wrong, and the writer of the story was wrong to even expect that could be possible in a world where ppl pull meteors from the sky. Only you in your infinite wisdom have discovered what the author should have done, the next time i run into kishi I'll let him know he made a mistake writing his story because some guy on a forum doesn't think willing yourself back to life is logical in a world full of 200 foot talking toads.

There you're right now, are you happy?
Nope, he didn't die. Because a dead body has no "will" to will himself back to life. He lost consciousness, Pain was wrong. That's all there is to it.
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Old 2013-04-06, 10:10   Link #122
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
Nope, he didn't die. Because a dead body has no "will" to will himself back to life. He lost consciousness, Pain was wrong. That's all there is to it.
i'll just point out a couple more things i guess. hopefully you acknowledge that characters in this manga have souls... and those souls indeed have power. just look at hashirama. all he is right now is a soul and he can break out of orochimaru's edo-tensei. indeed a dead body has no will, but a soul does. that's all there is to it.
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It was clearly a case of Pain got it wrong, it's not the only time it happened, and even if it was it still would make the most sense.
don't forget fukusamku 'getting it wrong' as well. you know... the nature chakra master attached to jiraiya's shoulder at the time. i'm sure he couldn't tell whether jiraiya was unconscoius or not
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Old 2013-04-06, 10:25   Link #123
JustRob
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All Fukasaku said was that he "forced himself back to life". This can be interpreted in a number of ways. I simply don't see how a person can force himself back to life if he's dead. When you're dead, you're dead. You can't do anything anymore. You can't think anymore.
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Old 2013-04-06, 10:50   Link #124
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
All Fukasaku said was that he "forced himself back to life". This can be interpreted in a number of ways. I simply don't see how a person can force himself back to life if he's dead. When you're dead, you're dead. You can't do anything anymore. You can't think anymore.
ok so my assumption was correct i guess. you really can't bring yourself yourself to see the facts about death and souls in naruto. all the edo-tensei zombies are dead and can think for themselves. just take a moment to let it sink in instead of replying about how wrong i am
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Old 2013-04-06, 11:46   Link #125
JustRob
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That's because their souls were pulled back from the beyond and inserted in a re-animated body. It's not something someone can accomplish without using such a technique.
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Old 2013-04-06, 12:18   Link #126
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
All Fukasaku said was that he "forced himself back to life". This can be interpreted in a number of ways. I simply don't see how a person can force himself back to life if he's dead. When you're dead, you're dead. You can't do anything anymore. You can't think anymore.
Dead, as in clinically dead, doesn't necessarily mean brain dead. It just means that your heart stopped beating correctly long enough to stop your pulse and breathing. For an in universe example Danzo's last seal was set up to activate upon his death (ie when his heart stopped) but he still had enough consciousness to have his last flashback and apparently enough strength to destroy his right eye.
It's not even that rare of a trope, it's just a basic case of heroic willpower.
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Old 2013-04-06, 12:38   Link #127
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
All Fukasaku said was that he "forced himself back to life". This can be interpreted in a number of ways. I simply don't see how a person can force himself back to life if he's dead. When you're dead, you're dead. You can't do anything anymore. You can't think anymore.
Jiraiya experienced cardiac arrest (undoubtedly hemorrhaging as well, what with losing an arm and all). He lost consciousness. His heart stopped. He died. Somehow he regained consciousness (will? chakra?) for a brief time. That's all that happened.

I literally do not understand why this particular point is so troubling to you. Of all the magical things in the series (from a man turning himself into a puppet, to another man existing as weird white snakes, etc) your nitpicking a common trope found across multiple series, novels, movies and video games. It's baffling, so much so that I have to wonder if you are trolling.
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Old 2013-04-06, 14:02   Link #128
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I'd have to say that henge is more baffling to me. Naruto turned into a shuriken before he even knew about nature manipulation or shape transformation.
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Old 2013-04-06, 14:03   Link #129
JustRob
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I dunno either. I guess I just always assumed Jiraiya didn't die until after leaving his dying message. Yes, a lot of weird crap happens in Naruto that can't be explained. But people dying and then magically coming back to life, if that becomes a "normal" thing, then what does death even mean anymore?
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Old 2013-04-06, 19:03   Link #130
Ero-Senn1n
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I'd have to say that henge is more baffling to me. Naruto turned into a shuriken before he even knew about nature manipulation or shape transformation.
Well if we are at this for me the stupidest thing is kawarimi, i think it's called this when you hide somewhere and place some object in place of your body, for example a tree log. Where they find these logs is a minor issue. But more funny is how you do all that hard work of getting the log and placing it there and then hiding and the opponent doesn't even see it. Also why would you do all that hard work when it's almost pointless since when the opponent hits it it's almost instantly revealed to be just a tree log. Also why don't they use it all the time if it's such a basic move. At least it's not used in serious battles, it would make the whole thing a joke

I think henge is more natural. Often we learn things where we don't know how it works exactly, we just do it. Children often practice complicated moves for years, they can master these moves but that doesn't mean they know why it's done that way and how it works exactly. In a magical world you can just say that if you know that a series of hand seals will result in a jutsu being activated then you don't need to know anything else, for example Naruto didn't even know how to pronounce the word chakra in the beginning of the manga but he was able to use it

Making clones can be more funny: how do they know where will the clone appear. The clone could appear in an object or in someone else. In FPS games when you "spawn" in someone else he explodes
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Old 2013-04-06, 19:17   Link #131
JustRob
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What I always wanted to know is if Itachi could Tsukuyomi women and make them have sex with him for 72 hours
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Old 2013-04-06, 22:30   Link #132
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Well if we are at this for me the stupidest thing is kawarimi, i think it's called this when you hide somewhere and place some object in place of your body, for example a tree log. Where they find these logs is a minor issue. But more funny is how you do all that hard work of getting the log and placing it there and then hiding and the opponent doesn't even see it. Also why would you do all that hard work when it's almost pointless since when the opponent hits it it's almost instantly revealed to be just a tree log. Also why don't they use it all the time if it's such a basic move. At least it's not used in serious battles, it would make the whole thing a joke
yea i agree. the replacement jutsu is easily one of my least favorite things in naruto. it's just plain stupid on many levels like you have pointed out. for example, i really like the sasuke deidara fight in the anime series. but there is a part when sasuke is covered in clay bombs, they explode, and then poof! turns out he was just a perfectly shaped log that gets tossed onto the ground. it's just so... stupid... i guess the theory behind using it is that it relies on speed, instead of using chakra to make a clone to have the same replacement effect, but when those perfectly shaped logs appear, i always roll my eyes.
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Old 2013-04-06, 22:56   Link #133
GDB
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
I dunno either. I guess I just always assumed Jiraiya didn't die until after leaving his dying message. Yes, a lot of weird crap happens in Naruto that can't be explained. But people dying and then magically coming back to life, if that becomes a "normal" thing, then what does death even mean anymore?
If that's your beef, you should be complaining about Pein literally bringing half a village back to life, or the entire basis of the Edo Tensei. Not something that has actually happened in real life multiple times before (minus the severed arm).
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Old 2013-04-06, 23:00   Link #134
JustRob
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I guess so...
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Old 2013-04-07, 04:29   Link #135
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You have to know that these type of Juutsu can only be preformed by top notch S-class ninja's.

This is an all out going war, of course we will see unique technique's.

The persons preforming edo-tensei are not some low class nin. to begin with, i think the cheating death part is overrated, it's just that we saw it a few times, but it's not some juutsu that everybody can throw out of its sleeve.

That being said, Itachi countering Edo Tensei, hey....we are talking about Itachi here.
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Old 2013-04-08, 19:25   Link #136
Ulquiorra
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If you miss some of the humor and fun in Naruto these days, read the new Rock Lee manga chapter. It's crazy.
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Old 2013-04-10, 00:26   Link #137
james0246
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The Chapter 627 thread has been started. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.
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