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Old 2013-04-06, 15:11   Link #921
synaesthetic
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The maid outfits aren't going to make your character stronger, surely, but En Masse does sell power on their cash shop. Granted, you can buy the items with in-game currency, but someone still has to buy it from the shop. Only abstaining from masterworking and enchanting beyond +9 will you avoid putting any money, directly or indirectly, into the cash shop.

Which, of course, was their goal all along.

I can tolerate Arenanet's cash shop for GW2 because there's no power being sold there. I don't consider XP boosts to be power. They don't sell reagents for refining, or items to lock bonuses or prevent the RNG from pissing on your gear. TERA does sell power--spellbind and extensive alkahest cannot be obtained in-game without the use of cash shop items.

Personally I dislike F2P period. I'd rather pay a set fee and get everything, and I don't even care if that fee is more than $15. The average revenue for F2P games is somewhere in the $18-22 per player averaged across the entire player base.

I'd happily pay $25, $30 or even more per month to get a game that will promise me it'll never go F2P and never have a cash shop and never harass me to buy things with real money.
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Old 2013-04-06, 16:19   Link #922
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Only abstaining from masterworking and enchanting beyond +9 will you avoid putting any money, directly or indirectly, into the cash shop.
In the end, people who don't want to spend a penny to enchant their gear to +12 can do so, though they may have to spend more time than those willing to spend the cash.

That said, if you're that dedicated to the game, I'm not sure why avoiding spending any money whatsoever ("directly or indirectly") is a goal. Who cares if you spend $50-$100 enchanting your equipment at that point? Take the money saved on the game purchase and subscription fees and put it towards that instead. You're probably still spending less overall unless Tera is your main online hobby (in which case, maybe it's okay to spend more).


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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Personally I dislike F2P period. I'd rather pay a set fee and get everything, and I don't even care if that fee is more than $15. The average revenue for F2P games is somewhere in the $18-22 per player averaged across the entire player base.

I'd happily pay $25, $30 or even more per month to get a game that will promise me it'll never go F2P and never have a cash shop and never harass me to buy things with real money.
It's all a perception game. The money spent could easily be the same (or, for many people, a lot less). The difference is that the onus is on the player to manage their own budget, and they know that some people aren't that disciplined -- people tend to the path of least resistance.

In the end, I admire the sort of pure ideal that all MMO player achievements are a function of effort and skill on an even playing field... but I don't think that's really been the case for some time now, whether officially (Chronoscrolls in Tera, previously) or unofficially (all the blackmarket game gold sellers, and EXP farmers).


Anyway, I'm not necessarily saying that F2P is great or has no problems... but I don't think it's so horrible either. Everything's a trade-off, and it's just a matter of what you personally consider acceptable.
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Old 2013-04-06, 17:34   Link #923
synaesthetic
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In the end, F2P always ends up chasing monetization trends. All the effort goes into the cash shop, with only the minimum effort required on the actual game just to keep people interested. Not to mention F2P games don't make money off long-time players. They want very high turnover, lots of new people who will buy stuff from the cash shop, and they want to force the old people who aren't buying stuff anymore out so they can make room for people who will buy stuff.

I suppose it all depends on what you want. I don't want F2P banished from existence. I just hate the fact that seemingly ALL games are going F2P, leaving those of us who want subscription options without any options!

I mean really, if I want a completely P2P game I have two choices. What the shit is that? That's pathetic. I can play WoW or FFXI and that's it. Everything else is some variation on the F2P model. I mean, Guild Wars 2 is okay in that the shop is basically pointless and you're being charged for the game and for content updates (which is totally fine with me, I have no problems paying box fees and buying expansion packs), but still I can see that if Anet's numbers start sinking, the first thing they'll do is start beefing up the cash shop to the point where it's all but required.
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Old 2013-04-06, 18:47   Link #924
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I think most people who want to play a MMO dream/aspire to be in the top league of players, be it for PvE or PvP accomplishments. Sadly most cash shops have turned games into a competition of who can whip out the most cash into their shop to buy the best items, level the fastest and upgrade their gear to their utmost limit. Needless to say, those players that frivolity considers to be "in-between" or casuals will never have a chance to compete. Even if they play for more hours.

Personally, I've given up on trying to be the best or even above average. I'll just play games for a while and once I stop having fun (usually by the time I find myself head to head against crazy cash shop people) it's time to call it quits.
I would argue that most people who play F2P MMOs without wanting to contribute a single cent don't really aspire to become in the top league of players, and are merely playing to have fun regardless of progress.

If we look at a game like Pangya for example, majority of the players I've played with don't actually calculate everything (wind speed, lie, etc) to the exact details. Many do read guides, but don't place so much emphasis on getting that hole-in-one. If you ask them whether they aspire to become the next Igarisan (winner of the last Pangya World Championship), or to even qualify for the next PWC, most would say no.

The same observations hold for Atlantica Online. Majority of the player base is made up of free players. Many do participate in PvP every now and then, but they don't aspire to be the next LH, Sharingan, Metaldog, or Vicariana.

For these casual players that form the numerical majority, the F2P system is extremely beneficial. We can play as many different games as and when we like; ROSE Online today, PSO2 tomorrow if I have time between classes, and Tera the day after if I feel like it. If I don't feel like playing anything at all, then there's no pressure because the games are free anyway. If these games were all P2P, we'd have to spend hundreds each month on games that we may or may not feel like playing.

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
In the end, F2P always ends up chasing monetization trends. All the effort goes into the cash shop, with only the minimum effort required on the actual game just to keep people interested. Not to mention F2P games don't make money off long-time players. They want very high turnover, lots of new people who will buy stuff from the cash shop, and they want to force the old people who aren't buying stuff anymore out so they can make room for people who will buy stuff.
Not necessarily a bad thing. Gamers today tend to be a fickle bunch after all, playing more games while spending less time in each as opposed to spending all their time on one game as they used to in the WoW era. F2P provides access to a greater variety of games for a lower cost overall - free. It's a case of the suppliers reacting to the changing demands of their customer base.

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I suppose it all depends on what you want. I don't want F2P banished from existence. I just hate the fact that seemingly ALL games are going F2P, leaving those of us who want subscription options without any options!

I mean really, if I want a completely P2P game I have two choices. What the shit is that? That's pathetic. I can play WoW or FFXI and that's it. Everything else is some variation on the F2P model. I mean, Guild Wars 2 is okay in that the shop is basically pointless and you're being charged for the game and for content updates (which is totally fine with me, I have no problems paying box fees and buying expansion packs), but still I can see that if Anet's numbers start sinking, the first thing they'll do is start beefing up the cash shop to the point where it's all but required.
That's the tragedy of the minority, which happens in every profit-making industry. International calls from Singapore to Indonesia are much more expensive than calls from Singapore to China because of the smaller customer base for the former. Vegan restaurants are extremely rare in most countries because of the small number of vegans. We also see elements of it in the anime industry in response to the changing tastes - the art of the Spring 2013 list of new anime is practically filled to the brim with Moe!
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Old 2013-04-06, 19:47   Link #925
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
In the end, F2P always ends up chasing monetization trends. All the effort goes into the cash shop, with only the minimum effort required on the actual game just to keep people interested. Not to mention F2P games don't make money off long-time players. They want very high turnover, lots of new people who will buy stuff from the cash shop, and they want to force the old people who aren't buying stuff anymore out so they can make room for people who will buy stuff.
I don't think there's anything in the items available for sale in Tera now that really supports this supposition. In fact, some of the items for sale will only appeal to "long-time players" (or at least, won't be useful at all to the newbies). I think it's fairly evenly spread, honestly.

In the end, sorry that your tastes are falling out of style, but I'm not sure if you need to keep whining about it in this thread after we already just had this one.
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Old 2013-04-06, 20:16   Link #926
synaesthetic
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Nah I'm pretty much done. Shouting into a hurricane is a pointless waste of energy. The only way to change something is to change it.
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Old 2013-04-06, 23:58   Link #927
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As someone who plays/played both F2P and P2P games (I'm in Trea Europe and GW2 right now), well, to me it really depends. Here in the Philippines F2P with cash shops is the effective trend mostly of the economic and social stratification. We're a poor country, most players here can't afford monthly fees. F2P with doling out of real money sometimes has become the most effective way to keep players playing and to invite new players without the daunting restrictions of having to pay every time you pay.

The main reason aside from economics is the fact that the vast majority of players play in computer shops; they don't play at home, and personally I sometimes play in shops too. We tried prepaid cards to play games like RO and Rising Force but eventually it had to succumb to F2P. For us F2P isn't something forced into the Filipino player base; it's something that just jives the best with Filipino gamer economics and gaming habits.

OT, I only started playing a month ago, but yes while the overall driven narrative kinda sucks compared to GW2, WoW or more especially SWTOR, it's nice to look at and the gameplay is a bit more different that standard cooldown hotkey spamming. I guess in a way I wasn't too keen on GW2's decision to throw away pideonholed character classes because I like role specifications, so at least Tera satisfies my desire to be the communal healbitch.
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Old 2013-04-07, 00:14   Link #928
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Keep in mind that the particular thing that provoked this particular round of the F2P/P2W debate were outfits that have absolutely no impact whatsoever on any of the gameplay mechanics. Whether you "whip out the cash" or not makes no difference on your ability to play and advance in the game. If they are going to go for a F2P model anyway (which they already did; there's no putting that cat back in the bag), it's way better to offer these sorts of unessential/vanity items than actual important ones that could break the game.

There's probably another conversation that could be had about the other items they have in the store and whether it tips the balance too far towards "P2W", but that debate really isn't relevant to at least the current items that were added.
It is, because you can sell these things.

Selling a bunch of these things in-game gives you gold, which in turn gives you the ability to buy your way to +12.

I don't really care for ppls to get +12, cuz 90% still blows, but to say these things doesn't promote p2w isn't entirely correct.
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Old 2013-04-07, 01:21   Link #929
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It is, because you can sell these things.

Selling a bunch of these things in-game gives you gold, which in turn gives you the ability to buy your way to +12.

I don't really care for ppls to get +12, cuz 90% still blows, but to say these things doesn't promote p2w isn't entirely correct.
Well, with that argument, Tera (at least in North America) always had this element from day-one in the form of chronoscrolls. This was considered preferable to the sort of shady gold-sellers you see spamming a lot of other MMORPGs.

I suppose if people really want to buy their way to the top level without enjoying the gameplay on the way there, there's always a way.
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Old 2013-04-07, 02:30   Link #930
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Honestly, I think this can be blamed on Blizzard. World of Warcraft's stratospheric success has given all the suits unrealistic expectations. "Oh noooo, we don't have nine million subscribers, we must go free-to-play!" Squeenix already proved that you don't need Wrath-level subscriber numbers to make a profit on a subscription game.
FFXI cost a fraction of the money needed to launch today's high profile MMORPGs.

The trouble with cutting-edge MMORPGs (some are rumoured to have nine figure budgets) is that virtually all of them are backed by external investors (and naturally, the expected return and player base growth increase with larger investments). If targets aren't met during the initial months, funding dries up, and they then scramble to change the business model.

Few are going to wait around, even if a subscription model might work out in the long term. Bear in mind that some of these publishers were dragged kicking and screaming into a F2P transition.

Exception = FFXIV because Square Enix finances everything. Had they depended on external investment, FFXIV would've died two years ago.
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Old 2013-04-07, 03:35   Link #931
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In the end, F2P always ends up chasing monetization trends. All the effort goes into the cash shop, with only the minimum effort required on the actual game just to keep people interested.
Can it.

You're whining about $60 elin costumes that are far cheaper on the Auction House (seen maido for 12k and frill for 2k) yet ignore the 20v20 battleground coming for all players.

I mean seriously?
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Old 2013-04-07, 03:51   Link #932
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You're spending 60$ on a costume? Seriously?
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Old 2013-04-07, 04:18   Link #933
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Can it.

You're whining about $60 elin costumes that are far cheaper on the Auction House (seen maido for 12k and frill for 2k) yet ignore the 20v20 battleground coming for all players.

I mean seriously?
I'm actually complaining that they have the balls to charge $60 for a reskin, when anyone can pay $60 for any triple-A title from a major publisher and developer.

A fool and his money are soon parted, indeed. And here I was complaining about the cost of DLC earlier today--when you look at it this way, $10 for the three (very engaged) hours I spent playing the Leviathan DLC is a bargain compared to the dumbass maid outfits.

Perhaps multiplayer gaming just isn't for me. Maybe I'm just not stupid enough to fall for the scam everyone else clearly has.

@TJR: The cost of modern gaming is a problem for the entire industry, not just the MMO subsection. These games have gotten entirely too expensive for absolutely artificial reasons. The Wii, NDS, Android and iOS have already proven that you don't need to spend Hollywood-blockbuster levels of cash to make a good game--and yet the industry keeps on doing it. These games--not just multiplayer games, but single-player titles as well--have to sell millions of copies just to break even.

There's no wonder we're being charged so much for DLC. It's not a surprise at all that publishers are carving chunks out of a game to sell them alongside it for extra cash. They've put themselves into a completely unworkable position, and the whole industry is starting to greatly resemble the 1980s. This time, though, it won't just be Atari self-destructing, and Nintendo won't be the only company left to pick up the pieces.
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Old 2013-04-07, 04:29   Link #934
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I dont get all your complaining...becouse no one is forceing you to use 60$ to buy points that you can spend on some outfits.... you can just play the game collect gold...and buy this stuff on auction

and people kinda risk with that becouse hey have no guarantee that somone will buy this stuff from them on the auction house ^^

yet no one is forceing people to buy this stuff its just from their own need....we can just play the game earn gold and try to get what we wish from the auction house without using any real money

the only thing that is pain in ass are mounts (but we still can buy skill books for them on the auction house)... or keys to get boosts or rare alkahest
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Old 2013-04-07, 04:39   Link #935
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I don't care about the outfit. I care about the business model. When a game goes free-to-play, they're forced to put most of their effort into selling you things, or they don't make any money.

I don't want my game to harass me to spend money. I get enough of that from, well, everywhere else in the world. I'd like at least one communal-social form of engagement where the only advertisement done is fictional and part of the story.

When a game goes free-to-play, you (the player) get screwed--and some of you don't even seem to notice it.

You can't deny that we're getting less. After TERA went F2P I kept paying my subscription, but support ticket times never went back to same-day turnaround. Live chat didn't go back to being 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

My own dislike for a $60 cosmetic is beside the point. So many people will buy it and this will reinforce their behavior. More cosmetics will be released with similar price tags. The game already revolves around the cash shop, and it'll only get worse as time goes on.

Moral of the story: don't play Korean MMOs if you want a years-long gaming experience. Their business model is all built around short-term gain. TERA is in maintenance mode. The content it's receiving is content that was half-completed years ago and should have been added in 2011, but the NCsoft lawsuit caused problems.

The 20v20 isn't new at all. The OWPvP consul patch isn't new either--it's half the original WvW/Juras' Ark update. What used to be called the "exarch" system, but was renamed to hide the fact that it's not actually new content.

Game's dead, and this is the fate of all F2P games. They're designed to last a year, maybe two tops, then go into full-blown fleece mode.
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Old 2013-04-07, 04:41   Link #936
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Game world economics can be complicated with rippling consequences from seemingly innocuous elements.

I've reactivated my eq2 account. I find the value for a combo f2p (restrictions) + p2p with a cash shop of reasonably priced cosmetics to be great. New game content and overhaul of old content. Yes, the graphics are a little dated and the combat mechanics are average but I'm looking for good RP and I like to build houses for people there. F2P may be the "wave" but I'll vote with my pocketbook
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Old 2013-04-07, 06:03   Link #937
MeoTwister5
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In as much as the F2PP2W (free to play, pay to win) is often problematic, I'll once again state that this is arguably the most stable model available for countries like the Philippines where subscription based gaming is generally unsustainable. I assume that Korean MMOs are designed like this for a reason, that it's specifically built for a more semi-casual, Net Cafe based playing population that is obviously more prevalent in Asia than in Western nations.

As I said before, in SEA PC shop gaming is more the norm than the exception when there's a pc center in practically every corner. People like me who play at home are actually fewer in number. In my years of home and shop online gaming, shop based gaming in my observation is less capable of sustaining subscription models when your player base have a less stable gaming schedule, generally of a younger age with a lower capacity to pay subscription fees, and as thus will only play when they have money for the shop hours.

So this is our gaming culture. F2S, for all it's boons and banes, work better for us apparently than subscription based games. So no, F2P isn't always teh suxx0rz and without it Ragnarok Online wouldn't be the phenomenon here that it is and usher in the era of MMOs for the Philippines. So yeah, in as much as I hate paying to win, it's the other side of the coin I have to accept to have the access we have today.
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Old 2013-04-07, 08:21   Link #938
Dark Faith
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I would argue that most people who play F2P MMOs without wanting to contribute a single cent don't really aspire to become in the top league of players, and are merely playing to have fun regardless of progress.

If we look at a game like Pangya for example, majority of the players I've played with don't actually calculate everything (wind speed, lie, etc) to the exact details. Many do read guides, but don't place so much emphasis on getting that hole-in-one. If you ask them whether they aspire to become the next Igarisan (winner of the last Pangya World Championship), or to even qualify for the next PWC, most would say no.

The same observations hold for Atlantica Online. Majority of the player base is made up of free players. Many do participate in PvP every now and then, but they don't aspire to be the next LH, Sharingan, Metaldog, or Vicariana.
True enough, I guess my usage of "most" wasn't the best pick for what I meant. But in my personal example, I used to try MMOs together with a group of two/three friends, and we always thought "Wouldn't it be cool of the three of us were some of the best around?", then we took a peek at the ingame economy and how much (real) money it'd be expected of us to invest towards that goal and we'd give up on that

I'm quite willing to spend money on a game, but I won't get into the level of some of the people who play games like Atlantica Online or Eden Eternal who spend hundreds over hundreds of dollars everytime there's a new promotion. It's their money and I bear them no ill will for what they do, but it's also true that a regular player will never be able to compete with them.

Games are fun regardless. I'm just a bit sad that one isn't able to compete at high levels without having a LOT of disposable income like they were able to a few years ago.
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Old 2013-04-07, 11:51   Link #939
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Perhaps multiplayer gaming just isn't for me. Maybe I'm just not stupid enough to fall for the scam everyone else clearly has.
Weren't you almost done?

In the end, we're all responsible adults able to make our own decisions about how we want to spend our time and money. It's pretty tiresome to listen to you sitting on your throne telling everyone that they're stupid just because their behaviour doesn't support the sort of gaming model that you prefer, as if not purchasing things from the cash store at this point (vanity or otherwise) is going to somehow encourage them to focus on whatever you'd prefer instead.

In the end, if people can extract enjoyment from the game, even if it is in "maintenance mode", that may be good enough for a time. And then, if people get bored, they'll move on. That's probably good enough for some people. And if it isn't good enough for you, well, sorry about your luck.
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Old 2013-04-07, 12:18   Link #940
HurricaneHige
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Well, with that argument, Tera (at least in North America) always had this element from day-one in the form of chronoscrolls. This was considered preferable to the sort of shady gold-sellers you see spamming a lot of other MMORPGs.

I suppose if people really want to buy their way to the top level without enjoying the gameplay on the way there, there's always a way.
Thing is, they limited Chrono scrolls to a limited purchase per week, which limits the p2w effects. Starting with F2P they took that kind of limit out. If you have a billion cash to throw around, you WILL get enough gold to +12.

Again, the game, when ppls have equal gear, comes down to skill execution and aim. In that regard, most of the player sucks balls so +12 doesn't concern me.

As for the whole gaming model, we knew this was going to happen when the game went F2P, complaining about the cost of vanity items trying to moneygrab is kinda silly imo.
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