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Old 2013-04-09, 10:44   Link #1201
demino_hellsin
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Well the substance isn't really dark matter. I'm sorry if I was being misleading but Iit's something completely different. I only used Kakine's powers as a starting point.

To humans, an object exists in concept before it can exist in any other way, shape or form. But the matter being produced is the opposite. It exists without being known to anyone else in concept. A substance that the brain cannot recognize.

In effect, the substance is invisible and even non-existent to human perception, no matter how great your senses are as the substance existence does not register in your brain as existing. It can affect you physically but direct properties inherent in the material are incomprehensible. As a side effect, this substance is absolutely unaffected by personal realities. It can bypass some esper abilities and maybe negate in certain cases. The material is only perceived by the power's user. Since the nature of the material as something which cannot be understood severely limits the control the user has over it. In fact, even the ability to perceive the material can be treated s amazing in itself.
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Old 2013-04-09, 11:09   Link #1202
tsunade666
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^your description can be used as a description for dark matter -_-

dark matter or unknown matter or alien matter. An object that doesn't have any form or values that can be understand because its alien to human race. Its being studied and used but still the nature of the matter is alien to the human world. Only Kakine can fully grasp it but even the user itself Kakine can't fully understand it. That's why there are growth in it.

From fighting Accelerator. From a mushed of brains to start of cell regeneration. Kakine is thinking what is his power and is trying to understand it to beat Accelerator.

Dark matter has full of questions to it and has infinite possibilities of use because no one fully understand the concept behind it. To humans its just alien substance.

Though for accelerator. Just knowing that its an unknown substance is enough to add it to his database. Even without fully comprehending it but after receiving damage from it. He just add that unknown value into the computation so it can't bypass his reflection.
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Old 2013-04-09, 11:15   Link #1203
demino_hellsin
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But again, the kicker isn't the fact the substance is merely unknown to the mind. It completely doesn't register. To come in contact with it generates a logical paradox within the mind. Like an impulse of the mind where they are hit, but there was absolutely nothing that could have hit them.

Dark matter is merely alien, the matter I'm talking about is just beyond comprehension. So to speak you can learn to understand dark matter, but the brain just isn't wired to understand this particular matter.
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Old 2013-04-09, 11:32   Link #1204
tsunade666
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isn't that dangerous? even normal people that tries to understand it will have the same reaction?

It reminds me of the fic inflight when Shirou saw the Jinki. He didn't really freak out from what I remember when he saw EA but he knew it was alien to humanity.

Okay the matter is totally unrecognizable but what can it do?

Creating a total unrecognizable alien matter is amazing but what can it do?

that will probably decide its level but for me its probably already level 4 or probably 5.

20 kilograms? that's a lot if you spread it out in thin wires form.
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Old 2013-04-09, 11:40   Link #1205
demino_hellsin
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Due to limited comprehension it's basically metal with triple the strength of steel and only the density of water. It is indeed very dangerous but the true potential of the matter is not reached. As Alice would describe it upon seeing the material, that it is far too filled with impurities. What it can do now is only a fraction of a fraction of its true ability.

Again, the matter cannot be perceived by the mind because the mind rejects it. So personal realities will not register it. Accelerator cannot reflect it, misaki cannot bypass its guard when someone is cocooned in the materrial. Even veteran warriors like Kanzaki will not be able to tell the shape, size, form of the matter.

If Touma's right arm restores a distortion in the world, then this subtance is the ultimate distortion. It does not register in concept but only physical.
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Old 2013-04-09, 12:57   Link #1206
tsunade666
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that's hax.... and anything unknown is something that Kihara would want to experiment with.

Precognition is an esper ability right? could precognition be Touma's ability?
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Old 2013-04-09, 13:07   Link #1207
Haigon
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
that's hax.... and anything unknown is something that Kihara would want to experiment with.

Precognition is an esper ability right? could precognition be Touma's ability?
Wouldn't that be supressed by IB?
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Old 2013-04-09, 13:26   Link #1208
Asuras
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Would an ability that allows one to generate some sort of effect in any point in space instantly (rather than 'travel' as would be the case for abilities like Mugino or Misaka's ability) be able to ignore Accelerator's reflective ability?

Say, the ability to ignite a surface (simply by looking at it), rather than throw a fireball to achieve the same effect? An esper cannot "see" Accelerator's reflective layer, and so such an ability would ignore it and instead cause his shirt (for example) to ignite. Right?
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Old 2013-04-09, 14:41   Link #1209
tsunade666
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Originally Posted by Haigon View Post
Wouldn't that be supressed by IB?
IB only exist on his right fist/hand its been debated before that IB might be the reason why his ability as an esper was not developing. But isn't precognition under mental ability? in the brains or something? (not sure on it)

The precognition of Touma allows him to detect threat that is approaching that are considered supernatural. its like he is feeling the distortion which helps because IB's ability is to correct this distortion.

So maybe not really an ability of his but a byproduct of having Imagine Breaker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
Would an ability that allows one to generate some sort of effect in any point in space instantly (rather than 'travel' as would be the case for abilities like Mugino or Misaka's ability) be able to ignore Accelerator's reflective ability?

Say, the ability to ignite a surface (simply by looking at it), rather than throw a fireball to achieve the same effect? An esper cannot "see" Accelerator's reflective layer, and so such an ability would ignore it and instead cause his shirt (for example) to ignite. Right?
In theory yes but the problem for Accelerator is his reflective layer isn't really one layer but a coating boundary of his AIM field. His insides probably is coated by it too or he can do it if he can do micro level computation to operate on brains neurons.

The problem on that is is the object that will appear start from a point or appear as a whole? if it started as a point and spreads then it will be crushed because there is vector there. And even if its not a point but a whole phase transportation like teleport. It will generate a vector into his field when its forcing through which is the same result when an attack from a teleporter was initiated against Accelerator. Accelerator just sends it back to the teleporter.

Though there are probably other way. I also though of instant attack that has no value of moving from outside the reflect layer but the reflect of accelerator isn't really that much of just an outside force.
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Old 2013-04-09, 15:09   Link #1210
Haigon
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
IB only exist on his right fist/hand its been debated before that IB might be the reason why his ability as an esper was not developing. But isn't precognition under mental ability? in the brains or something? (not sure on it)

The precognition of Touma allows him to detect threat that is approaching that are considered supernatural. its like he is feeling the distortion which helps because IB's ability is to correct this distortion.
Then... could Misaki control him as long as he didn't touch his head? (I'll probably see it in volume 7).
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Old 2013-04-09, 15:36   Link #1211
tsunade666
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its possible, as long as it doesn't spread into his right hand.

The scene in vol 02 where ars magna was able to affect Touma on his head proves that it could be possible but given that ars magna is god like level.

vol 05 telepathy by a judgment girl didn't affect Touma because he ended up touching the link.

Touma is not immune to mind attack as long at it doesn't try to take control of his body but reading memories is probably possible because its only limited to brain. Though a mind connection is probably not good because there are unquestionable factors like the being inside Touma and the memory backlash on what Touma experience would probably too much for innocent girls or young ones in academy city that aren't aware of the dark sides.

Misaki.... probably knew Touma. That was what railgun manga hinted on it so I was waiting for Misaki and Touma's meeting.
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Old 2013-04-09, 15:45   Link #1212
Asuras
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
In theory yes but the problem for Accelerator is his reflective layer isn't really one layer but a coating boundary of his AIM field. His insides probably is coated by it too or he can do it if he can do micro level computation to operate on brains neurons.

The problem on that is is the object that will appear start from a point or appear as a whole? if it started as a point and spreads then it will be crushed because there is vector there. And even if its not a point but a whole phase transportation like teleport. It will generate a vector into his field when its forcing through which is the same result when an attack from a teleporter was initiated against Accelerator. Accelerator just sends it back to the teleporter.

Though there are probably other way. I also though of instant attack that has no value of moving from outside the reflect layer but the reflect of accelerator isn't really that much of just an outside force.
Then how did Kihara manage to strike Accelerator? Evidently his field has a delay, because it affected Kihara's strikes slow enough that a common human could pull his punch in time. Considering combustion is an event nearly as fast as neurological impulses themselves, could Accelerator's field react in time?

There also seems to be an inconsistency in that respect, now that I think about it. When one of the Misaka clones fired a armor-piercing round from a sniper rifle, it was immediately repelled... an event faster than Kihara's punches. How does this add up?
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Old 2013-04-09, 16:02   Link #1213
Rovert10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
that's hax.... and anything unknown is something that Kihara would want to experiment with.

Precognition is an esper ability right? could precognition be Touma's ability?
Hard to say.

Didn't Itsuwa try multiple times to heal him with spells and that none of that worked despite being away from his right hand?

IB seems to be working on the internal level as well but it's still very sketchy of what IB can and cannot do.

Also isn't Ars Manga in Vol 2 a new reality around Touma not an effect on Touma directed in his head?
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Old 2013-04-09, 18:29   Link #1214
tsunade666
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Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
Then how did Kihara manage to strike Accelerator? Evidently his field has a delay, because it affected Kihara's strikes slow enough that a common human could pull his punch in time. Considering combustion is an event nearly as fast as neurological impulses themselves, could Accelerator's field react in time?

There also seems to be an inconsistency in that respect, now that I think about it. When one of the Misaka clones fired a armor-piercing round from a sniper rifle, it was immediately repelled... an event faster than Kihara's punches. How does this add up?
In the anime it shows that Accelerator reflect isn't really a skin touch. Look at the thug that tried to punch him. Though from the description in the novel. It shouldn't be that far from the skin that its almost needed physical contact to act.

Kihara Amata is the one who developed Accelerator's ability. He knew everything about his ability and knew where to hit and when to hit. His a Kihara enough said

though seriously from the novel. Kihara trained to counter Accelerator and since he knew accelerator more than anyone in the research development since he is the one who develop it. Then he knew exactly where is the boundary of his AIM field. And he also knew his thought pattern enough to create a sound frequency that will disrupt his calculation for distance.

Accelerator thought patter was also used on the other espers like Saia and Kuronyan
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Old 2013-04-09, 18:43   Link #1215
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
Then how did Kihara manage to strike Accelerator? Evidently his field has a delay, because it affected Kihara's strikes slow enough that a common human could pull his punch in time. Considering combustion is an event nearly as fast as neurological impulses themselves, could Accelerator's field react in time?

There also seems to be an inconsistency in that respect, now that I think about it. When one of the Misaka clones fired a armor-piercing round from a sniper rifle, it was immediately repelled... an event faster than Kihara's punches. How does this add up?
Its less about speed and more about timing.

We don't really know the timing required to pull off the reversal so we can't say. But clearly you can't outspeed it if he can reflect uv ray. I think there is a buffer zone at a microscopic level where the barrier calculates.
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Old 2013-04-09, 19:34   Link #1216
demino_hellsin
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The ability to create the paradoxical material is not absolutely powerful. It is still only metal, albeit strong. The key to beating it is to see it. Thus far the only way to detect it is by using indirect methods, such as Misaka running a current in the air and feeling for the inconsistencies within the current field. She has to detect it solely this way, or else a paradox occurs in her mind. The defense and offense of the matter isn't absolute either as Mugino's meltdowner can still reduce the matter to nothing.

So accelerator's AIM field isn't absolute? The way Hime wins against accelerator is by seeing when or where the field has a hole and strike there.

Precognition by Touma is a physical reflex based on experience. There is no "vision". It is purely derived from insinct and split second case analysis from past scenarios.
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Old 2013-04-09, 20:17   Link #1217
tsunade666
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Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
So accelerator's AIM field isn't absolute? The way Hime wins against accelerator is by seeing when or where the field has a hole and strike there.
It isn't a hole that she needs to find. There is no hole on Accelerator's defense. Unless your Touma, you can't just brute force your way like the arch angel who still can't even overpowered him (living Aiwass because he is different)

The thing that needs to be found is the boundary between the AIM field and the exterior of the AIM field. That boundary is where the absolute defense starts and also the calculation and filtering.
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Old 2013-04-09, 20:23   Link #1218
demino_hellsin
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So Hime needs to judge the distance between the layers, and have her attacks cross that distance for both htting and retraction before accelerator can finish calculations?

EDIT: I think that IB negates directly affects Touma. Things like Ars Magnus probably affect the world so it's like a secondary effect which IB doesn't negate too well. Maybe. So directly controlling Touma would be difficult if not impossible for Misaki.

Last edited by demino_hellsin; 2013-04-09 at 21:31.
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Old 2013-04-09, 21:34   Link #1219
OverNOut
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^Don't forget after the fight with Kihara, Accelerator usually carries a gun now and I doubt he will not think of countermeasures against that since in Volume 19 someone tried to use the same trick and half succeeded so he'll most likely think of a way against that trick like he did for the jamming trick.
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Old 2013-04-09, 21:43   Link #1220
demino_hellsin
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Wait... So that really is the case? A slight delay between the calculation and actual reflection? And it can be humanly crossed to hit accelerator?
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