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Old 2013-04-09, 09:24   Link #2961
Hoki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
(speaking of which, I can't quite recall that Olivie was acknowledged as the most powerful mage ever).
Yeah, about that. I may have exaggerated a bit. But she is recognized as a great mage by most characters in the current timeline. If we are to believe Einhart, who was describing her based from Klaus' memories, then it still stands that she was the best fighter of her time.
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Old 2013-04-09, 09:33   Link #2962
Takamura Mamoru
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As far as I'm concerned, Nanoha can't be the most powerful mage of her time if the TSAB knows mage ranks above hers in the first place.

Consider the fact that a dying clone of Zest was roughly equal in strength to Signum, who herself is at least equal to Nanoha (excluding her Agito and Nanoha's Blaster-3), and yet Zest wasn't particularly hyped or legendary.

However, Ancient Belka was a wartorn era that lasted for god knows how many years and if I'm not mistaken it was a time where strength was considered very important. In such a time Olivie and Claus' power stood out so much that they became the stuff of legends. Einhart mentions that Olivie's power was considered "second to none" in combat, multiple times.

I find it hard to believe that Nanoha is supposed to be on their level. Nanoha is strong and all, but I doubt she can be considered the strongest of her era. I'm sure there are powerful mages like Precia (cross-dimensional, ship-disabling thunderbolts, anyone?) lurking everywhere. That we never met those is a different matter, possibly to avoid a sorting algorithim of villain strength. So far, Reinforce was the strongest being ever shown and I'm confident she could still wreck adult, full strength Nanoha.

...Which makes me wonder how Reinforce vs. Olivie would go.
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Old 2013-04-09, 09:42   Link #2963
Akiyoshi
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You're forgetting something, Nanoha was in the need to use a deadly upgrade just to be able to keep up with Vivio who hast just been argumented to be less skilled and powerfull than the real Olivie, then Nanoha was in the need to capture her within her strongest bind that Vivio already started to break in order to use a desperately ultimate attack ...the effort of said fight almost costed her a permanent reduction of her power.

So yeah, it's possible the real Olivie can handle Nanoha and almost everyone else in RF6 by default.

EDIT: Jusy being a bit picky, Yuri Evelwin (aka. U-D) is the strongest being in the franchise to date and more likely able to erase both Reinforce and Olivie from the map xDU
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Old 2013-04-09, 10:51   Link #2964
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoki View Post
Yeah, about that. I may have exaggerated a bit. But she is recognized as a great mage by most characters in the current timeline. If we are to believe Einhart, who was describing her based from Klaus' memories, then it still stands that she was the best fighter of her time.
That certainly is true based on what we know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru View Post
As far as I'm concerned, Nanoha can't be the most powerful mage of her time if the TSAB knows mage ranks above hers in the first place.
Remember that these same ranks are also used to describe general powerlevels. So something of the scale of, say, a planet going boom because of the Book of Darkness, would get a label larger than what Nanoha has (since the explosion is much more powerful than what Nanoha could produce) but that doesn't mean there are mages of that powerlevel.

So far, we haven't exactly seen any mages who's power surpasses the main cast. Sure, there's some who are on their level (hence "one of the strongest" and not "the strongest") but surpassing them? Not yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru View Post
Consider the fact that a dying clone of Zest was roughly equal in strength to Signum, who herself is at least equal to Nanoha (excluding her Agito and Nanoha's Blaster-3), and yet Zest wasn't particularly hyped or legendary.
Keywords there are "hyped" and "legendary."

But Zest really wasn't. Not by the time of StrikerS at least. He was using a self-destructive boost technique just to break even with Signum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru View Post
However, Ancient Belka was a wartorn era that lasted for god knows how many years and if I'm not mistaken it was a time where strength was considered very important. In such a time Olivie and Claus' power stood out so much that they became the stuff of legends. Einhart mentions that Olivie's power was considered "second to none" in combat, multiple times.

I find it hard to believe that Nanoha is supposed to be on their level. Nanoha is strong and all, but I doubt she can be considered the strongest of her era. I'm sure there are powerful mages like Precia (cross-dimensional, ship-disabling thunderbolts, anyone?) lurking everywhere. That we never met those is a different matter, possibly to avoid a sorting algorithim of villain strength. So far, Reinforce was the strongest being ever shown and I'm confident she could still wreck adult, full strength Nanoha.
Their titles already show they are considered among the strongest of their time within the Bureau. "The three aces" and "ace of aces" aren't titles you earn by being a only bit above average.

But yeah, Reinforce would have no trouble with them. In fact... she didn't have any trouble with them. At all. But then, Reinforce is a Lost Logia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru View Post
...Which makes me wonder how Reinforce vs. Olivie would go.
Curbstomp. Reinforce is a Lost Logia. She's packing enough power to destroy a planet and can regenerate even if you somehow get enough forepower in place to destroy her. Hell, even Nanoha only survived because of timely plot interventions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
You're forgetting something, Nanoha was in the need to use a deadly upgrade just to be able to keep up with Vivio who hast just been argumented to be less skilled and powerfull than the real Olivie, then Nanoha was in the need to capture her within her strongest bind that Vivio already started to break in order to use a desperately ultimate attack ...the effort of said fight almost costed her a permanent reduction of her power.

So yeah, it's possible the real Olivie can handle Nanoha and almost everyone else in RF6 by default.
That Vivio still had the Sankt Kaiser armor, was being powered by a Lost Logia warship with virtually infinite magic that supercharged all her spells and also kept feeding battle data into her head.

Different parameters. I agree that an Olivie with Cradle-powered infinite superpowered magic would juggle Nanoha no problem.
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Old 2013-04-09, 11:40   Link #2965
novalysis
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Originally Posted by Amaterasu1963 View Post
This fight hasn't happened yet.
Thanks. Is it scheduled to happen down the line, or did something else occured, and the whole buildup that seemed to imply that Lutecia would face the Witch was a redherring?
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Old 2013-04-09, 13:28   Link #2966
Sansker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I don't see how the whole "Vivio is weaker than Olivie" is a circular debate. It's rather simple. Remember, what did Olivie have?
  • The Kaiser Armor, the toughest protection magic we know of to date. Extremely tough defense.
  • Mechanical arms. Rule of cyborgs says these are stronger than normal arms by default, so they would be even stronger with magic. Strong attacks.
What does Vivio no longer have?
  • No more Kaiser Armor, lost in the Cradle. Low defense.
  • Natural arms. Limited to her natural arms, which Olivie never had. Lower attack.
See? It's simple. No Kaiser Armor + no cyborg arms = lower defense and attack. Yes, it's retcon as hell and, in my honest opinion, just a lazy way to give Vivio a "getting stronger" story, but it does make sense.
But that is why it can be a circular argument. To you it ends there, to me it doesnít. Not just for the silly retcon, but because the way this has been handle regarding Vivio. Now, with this idea we are making that StrikerS and ViVid have little but important differences regarding Vivio herself. For example Jail cloned Vivio with the Fate Project technology and it was mention Vivio was the first and only success of the project to bring someone back from the dead. Then Einhart mentions how Vivio is nothing like Olive. The Saint Kaiser was a figure of legend and power, but now she was given tools to bust her power so she could fight because she was born with a disadvantage or had an accident.

You see I canít just buy this crap, because is crap. Instead of playing with what they have they from this weird idea and even worse approach to the entire Ancient Belka thing. Ok, that is my personal interpretation of the facts, but it is still something I see as not good. The circular argument starts when what I think is being question because it seems like it canít be more than one way of interpretation of the facts. There is when I donít settle down.
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Old 2013-04-09, 14:36   Link #2967
Keroko
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The funny thing about "legends" is that more often than not the majority of them are wrong.
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Old 2013-04-09, 15:11   Link #2968
Sansker
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Yes, but if we go on the debate of semantics we will be here all week. In this case is just a word I use to illustrate the point. And you yourself notice how this retcons are in place just to give this story an “arc” about Vivio that can’t even keep its focus on her. Now you see the results as fine despite the flaws, Keroko, but I don’t and there is when we can say it falls to personal taste and interpretation. I don’t mind these elements as much as I mind the poor use of them. Hey I will criticize this decisions as my way of nitpick but here it goes beyond just that. There was story and so much content and in the end ViVid falls flat with really lazy writing. So really all of this is, to be honest, a feeling of disappoint. ViVid could be better if they just put some effort in to it to rise from the low bar they have settle for the quality of their stories. And not to say this is the stuff of epic novels but at least something watchable or enjoyable.

But to get back on the point: Vivio and Olivie have a strange relationship to put it someway. And that fact along could have drive an entire character center manga. Hey, I know this should have magic explosions and fights but nothing is going to be lost if we just add substance to this.
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Old 2013-04-09, 15:26   Link #2969
Keroko
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The point I'm making with my legends analogy is that it means whatever the church keeps blabering about when it comes to Olivie is not factual. It's merely what they believe. This allows the retcons to make sense.

That's the difference: The story makes sense. I just don't like the Vivio retcon.

First one is story events, second is opinion on them.

You really need to learn to separate the two Sansker.
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Old 2013-04-09, 15:42   Link #2970
Kuroi Hadou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The point I'm making with my legends analogy is that it means whatever the church keeps blabering about when it comes to Olivie is not factual. It's merely what they believe.
I'd add that it's also good PR to make the church look better or more appealing to everyone else. Or propaganda, if you want to be perfectly blunt about it.
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Old 2013-04-09, 16:06   Link #2971
Hoki
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The funny thing about "legends" is that more often than not the majority of them are wrong.
Yeah, Ix would be a good example of a "legend" being just a fabricated story that went weird as history went on.
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Old 2013-04-09, 16:21   Link #2972
Sansker
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Well, yes and no there, Keroko. Story events and opinion are two different things but one can’t be without the other. You can’t have an opinion without the story events and this will always generate an opinion.

Besides with that logic it means they can do what they want because they never bother explaining anything. That is not the stuff of a good story, so when the excuse is “the back story is so obscure we can make it in what we need” I will always look at this carefully.
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Old 2013-04-09, 16:39   Link #2973
Keroko
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...And explaining the backstory is what they are doing right now with Vivid.
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Old 2013-04-09, 16:58   Link #2974
Sansker
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I am not saying they aren’t, I am saying I don’t like it. To be fair, the last battle with Einhard and Sieg was the best of any of them, but only when compare to the others. But I will have to hear the actual story, to see if my feeling about it right now is going to change. So far is not going to a good end as far as I am concern.
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Old 2013-04-09, 17:02   Link #2975
Rising Dragon
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Who are you trying to kid, Sansker? If our clarification on the numerous points of Nanoha you didn't understand couldn't make you like the franchise, then a chapter translation sure as hell won't.
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Old 2013-04-09, 17:06   Link #2976
Sansker
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I like the franchise; I dislike it latest incarnations in manga. That is a very different thing. So far I haven’t hear or see anything that is making me change my mind other than the fact that I should change my mind because you think is what I should do.
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Old 2013-04-09, 17:08   Link #2977
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If you like the franchise, then why are you constantly condemning nearly every aspect of it? 95% of the points you bring up is something you hate about the franchise, so forgive me for not believing a damn thing you say about liking it. Every time we explain your mistaken reasoning behind some of the points you hate, you throw it back in our faces.
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Old 2013-04-09, 17:22   Link #2978
Sansker
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Because, as far as I know, ViVid is a bad manga. I like some, and I mean a few, of its ideas but that is it. Here there is little to like, little to do and much more to criticize rather than just nod and take it. Is not my fault the series has gone in to such a low state these days. When this thing does something better I will be willing to like it.

And again we go with my mistaken reasoning. Just because you don’t agree means is a mistake. You like this, is fine, and you have your reasons, what I say is that those reasons doesn’t apply to me for my own reasons. However I am not willing to be call “wrong” on that just because you disagree with it.
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Old 2013-04-09, 17:31   Link #2979
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"Yes, I hate the manga because there's nothing to do and it's a slice of life."

Yup.
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Old 2013-04-09, 17:39   Link #2980
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Okay, enough please. Let's move on.
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