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Old 2013-04-09, 15:33   Link #321
Shyni
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It's not like the PMMM anime ever really explained how things work. Most of the loops shown were from Homura's viewpoint anyway.

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There's no reason why not. For one thing, another factor for why timelines change is Madoka's growing power, which is why Oriko didn't target her in the preceding timelines.
Madoka's power only does anything once she makes a wish, so that doesn't really make any difference. Plus, her witch is already pretty dangerous, even in one of the timelines when Homura still had glasses, so if Oriko is still relevant in other timelines, she would've done something previously. But the manga has post-glasses Homura, who didn't know about Oriko, previously, so Oriko probably didn't take any action before that, even though there has at least been one timeline with Gretchen before this.

I think Homura in this manga already knew about Gretchen too, since she seemed to understand what Oriko and Kirika were trying to do, more or less, and doesn't act surprised that they think killing Madoka will prevent the world being destroyed. Yet she was terribly unfamiliar with those two. So even if this isn't in the anime's continuity, there has been at least one previous timeline where Gretchen exists, but Oriko never did anything.
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Old 2013-04-09, 16:16   Link #322
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Originally Posted by Shyni View Post
I dunno, Madoka Magica never really explains how all the time travel works. If Higurashi can have variables that are completely unrelated to the performing the loops, why not PMMM?

That, and going by the comic book analogy, how often do AU stories end with "alright, back to doing more of the same"?

That being said, I doubt Shinbo or Urobuchi even care enough to decide whether or not the spinoff characters even exist in the anime's timelines.

Also, this spinoff makes PMMM franchise feel more "complete" as a copy of Kamen Rider Ryuki, at least for me.

Spoiler for Ryuki stuff:


Maybe a weird reason, but it filled in something that I honestly feel the anime itself was missing. Yes, I probably do have odd reasons for liking things.
Actually, as somebody who can be strangely obsessive over subtle connections between two otherwise unrelated franchises, I can definitely empathize with you here.

So I like your reasoning for wanting to view Oriko Magica as part of of the same canon as the anime is. I'd probably even share it myself if I was a big Kamen Rider Ryuki fan.
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Old 2013-04-09, 19:18   Link #323
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Madoka's power only does anything once she makes a wish, so that doesn't really make any difference.
This is demonstratably not true, since it directly effects 1) How intently Kyubey decides to harass her, and 2) whether or not Oriko has a precognitive vision of the destruction her witch will cause, prompting her to assassinate her.

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Plus, her witch is already pretty dangerous, even in one of the timelines when Homura still had glasses, so if Oriko is still relevant in other timelines, she would've done something previously.
It's not until the 4th timeline where Madoka's witch is explicitly capable of destroying the entire world in ten days, though. The second timeline? Nnnnot so much.

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I think Homura in this manga already knew about Gretchen too, since she seemed to understand what Oriko and Kirika were trying to do, more or less, and doesn't act surprised that they think killing Madoka will prevent the world being destroyed. Yet she was terribly unfamiliar with those two. So even if this isn't in the anime's continuity, there has been at least one previous timeline where Gretchen exists, but Oriko never did anything.
Again, we don't have the information you act like we do. Is the Gretchen of the 4th timeline strong enough to prompt Oriko's vision? What's the cutoff point? Did she even make her wish in any of the earlier timelines? Given that she made her wish after her father commited suicide, maybe he's normally targeted by a witch Puella Magi Madoka defeats in the earliest timelines? We don't know. Maybe her father only commits suicide when Madoka doesn't contract.

We have nowhere near enough information to know what sets Oriko-the-Madoka-killer into motion, but the factors we DO know of are present in every timeline that comes AFTER that one, so logic, reason, and common sense tell us that Homura has to take some sort of preventive measure.
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Old 2013-04-10, 03:23   Link #324
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Considering that Oriko can use her powers in combat against other magical girls, why would there even be any sort of "cutoff point"? And Gretchen is pretty much always a huge threat anyway, given that Madoka never loses to Walpurgisnacht (she doesn't make it out in good shape, but she never dies before WPN). It's not really explained how big a threat earlier Gretchens are, but I don't recall Oriko even needing any specific "cutoff" point like "must destroy the world in under X number of days".

We do know that Oriko Magica had at least one or two previous timelines where Gretchen appears before the main story, yet Oriko never took action. And Oriko does have dialogue that goes "Then you can understand this right? In order to avoid the end and save the world, Kaname Madoka will be eliminated". Homura's reaction amounted to "not gonna let you do that", but she didn't deny that Madoka's witch is a world-level threat.

I realize I'm mainly going by "since she doesn't sound surprised, she probably knows it's true", but it's not like Gretchen wasn't always a huge, (near-)apocalyptic threat.

That, and if Oriko's father doesn't die because Madoka saves him somehow, then Homura can easily do the same thing, since her loops tend to start before Madoka makes a contract.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Actually, as somebody who can be strangely obsessive over subtle connections between two otherwise unrelated franchises, I can definitely empathize with you here.

So I like your reasoning for wanting to view Oriko Magica as part of of the same canon as the anime is. I'd probably even share it myself if I was a big Kamen Rider Ryuki fan.
Somehow, what's even more fun about the spionoffs is things that Ryuki never got around to doing. Closest I will get to seeing a few matchups/battles that never happened.
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Old 2013-04-10, 10:03   Link #325
maximilianjenus
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iirc, the mahou shoujo who is in her 20s 30s, does not always become a witch and it is very likely she is not madoka's teacher, so homura might not be related to her becoming a witch (but then again she might go to her and cheer her up or something so she does not become a witch).

more relevant stuff in the spoiler.

Spoiler for for madoka , kazumi and oriko:
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Old 2013-04-10, 13:00   Link #326
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Considering that Oriko can use her powers in combat against other magical girls, why would there even be any sort of "cutoff point"? And Gretchen is pretty much always a huge threat anyway, given that Madoka never loses to Walpurgisnacht (she doesn't make it out in good shape, but she never dies before WPN). It's not really explained how big a threat earlier Gretchens are, but I don't recall Oriko even needing any specific "cutoff" point like "must destroy the world in under X number of days".
What does her combat abilities have to do with anything? Even Mami comments that Oriko is a weak fighter.

Regardless, it doesn't matter whether or not Madoka can beat Walpurgisnacht; in the first timeline Mami's already softened it up and in the second timeline she had Homura's help. :P One of the few facts we have is that Oriko does not threaten Madoka until after the 4th timeline, where she is confirmed as being capable of destroying the world in 10 days. If Madoka's power is growing, so is her witch form.

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We do know that Oriko Magica had at least one or two previous timelines where Gretchen appears before the main story, yet Oriko never took action. And Oriko does have dialogue that goes "Then you can understand this right? In order to avoid the end and save the world, Kaname Madoka will be eliminated". Homura's reaction amounted to "not gonna let you do that", but she didn't deny that Madoka's witch is a world-level threat.

I realize I'm mainly going by "since she doesn't sound surprised, she probably knows it's true", but it's not like Gretchen wasn't always a huge, (near-)apocalyptic threat.
Again, we have no reason to think that. Madoka's Timeline Two witch could've been ordinary, for all we know. Coulda messed up a town but might not have been an apocalyptic threat. Oriko only acts after the 4th timeline occurs; the second timeline is irrelevant.

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That, and if Oriko's father doesn't die because Madoka saves him somehow, then Homura can easily do the same thing, since her loops tend to start before Madoka makes a contract.
If Homura can identify the hypothetical witch that does him in. No guarantee that she can.

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1) madoka's wish, her wish specifically targets all universes which brings some problems to stuff like kazumi magica and even oriko magica, because if withces do not exist, kazumi can't exist, and oriko has no reason to target madoka because she can't become a witch ( it's not like madoka even exists anyway), I find that pretty weird as a single universe event affects all universes ina very serious way.
It's called a Cosmic Retcon. Oriko and Kazumi take place "Before" the wish.
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Old 2013-04-10, 18:16   Link #327
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Yeah, that's the trope for it but the mechanics are nto set in stone, at least not until the new madoka series get made so we still don't know what will really happen, especially considering what happens in the third movie.
Spoiler for third movie spoilers:
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Old 2013-04-11, 00:22   Link #328
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I don't think it really matters what the third movie says on the subject; Oriko and Kazumi are both written pre-Madokami. Even if witches return in the third movie, it's different from "Witches have always existed and most Magical Girls learn they will inevitably become one."
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Old 2013-04-11, 10:54   Link #329
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written premadokami ? what do you mean by that ? afaik tehy finished after the tv series, so madokami was already part of the equation, writer's wise.
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Old 2013-04-11, 11:42   Link #330
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...meaning that at the time that the two series 'take place', the wish Madoka made hadn't 'happened' yet, within the continuity of the series, meaning that from the perspective of the characters, witches hadn't yet started to 'have never existed'.
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Old 2013-04-12, 09:02   Link #331
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got you, thanks; I agree on that, I wanted to amke sure you did not mean it meta/real world wise.
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Old 2013-04-14, 12:37   Link #332
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
What does her combat abilities have to do with anything? Even Mami comments that Oriko is a weak fighter.
As in she could predict the moves of somebody fighting her at any given moment. She managed to help Kirika keep up with Homura (who specifically figures out Oriko's powers based on this). If she can do that, why not predict some other threat?

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Regardless, it doesn't matter whether or not Madoka can beat Walpurgisnacht; in the first timeline Mami's already softened it up and in the second timeline she had Homura's help. :P One of the few facts we have is that Oriko does not threaten Madoka until after the 4th timeline, where she is confirmed as being capable of destroying the world in 10 days. If Madoka's power is growing, so is her witch form.
WPN didn't look even vaguely injured when Mami died. And if the fight went was anything like the "main" timeline Homura wouldn't have been much help anyway.

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Again, we have no reason to think that. Madoka's Timeline Two witch could've been ordinary, for all we know. Coulda messed up a town but might not have been an apocalyptic threat. Oriko only acts after the 4th timeline occurs; the second timeline is irrelevant.
And we have no reason to assume that Gretchen wasn't extraordinarily powerful. I don't see how your assumptions are more valid than anybody else's.

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If Homura can identify the hypothetical witch that does him in. No guarantee that she can.
I doubt it's even related to Madoka or Homura. There's no indication he died after a given loop's starting point.
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Old 2013-04-14, 13:30   Link #333
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As in she could predict the moves of somebody fighting her at any given moment. She managed to help Kirika keep up with Homura (who specifically figures out Oriko's powers based on this). If she can do that, why not predict some other threat?
We don't know how her precognition works; in general it seems like she doesn't control when it comes.

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WPN didn't look even vaguely injured when Mami died. And if the fight went was anything like the "main" timeline Homura wouldn't have been much help anyway.
Witches kind of don't show signs of damage until they're on their last leg, in general. Doesn't mean much.

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And we have no reason to assume that Gretchen wasn't extraordinarily powerful. I don't see how your assumptions are more valid than anybody else's.
Because mine is extrapolated on what's been said. Madoka and her witch form are as powerful as they are because of all the timelines tethered together by Homura's time jumps, not Madoka's inherent ability. In the second timeline, Madoka would only be twice as powerful or some such. She shouldn't ALREADY be capable of global destruction, that's preposterous.

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I doubt it's even related to Madoka or Homura. There's no indication he died after a given loop's starting point.
...You say, about a guy we've only seen in a flashback once. But you're right. I was just throwing out conjecture to demonstrate how little data we have on the guy; we can't assume anything with him, but we do have a lot of data suggesting that Oriko's Mahou Shoujo lifepath is ABNORMAL.
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