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Old 2013-04-11, 02:11   Link #1441
aohige
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
This is a bit off-topic, but the re-emergence of the "lolimagi is an evil tyrant" discussion reminded me of one of the rare few examples of a truly menacing female villain in a shounen series: Dakki from Houshin Engi. Now SHE was a damned good example of cruel dictator with a cute face (and she wasn't a loli either, heh ). Not only was she powerful, manipulative, and cunning, but she also had some rather extreme methods of punishing her enemies. Now it's been a good while since I last read the series, but a couple of punishments that I recall from the top of my head was this tiger beer garden thing (where a bunch of roaming tigers killed the kings she invited to her palace), and her literally turning a prince into a hamburger and feeding him to his father. That right there should tell you how much of a sadistic bitch she was.....


And even crazier is that despite all of the cruel things she did, she never had any proper comeuppance (at least in the manga..... if I recall, she actually DOES get killed in the anime version). I mean, sure, lolimagi rushed straight to war with barely any attempt at negotiation, but at least she had a noble cause. Dakki, on the other hand, would be more prone to invade a neighboring country just for the heck of it! Man, was she an awesome villain..... I wish we had more like her.



Uh, so back on topic: Dumberdork is still the bigger douche!
Dude, Dakki-chan is nothing short of AWESOME.
I'd tap that sadistic, cannibalistic, man-eating, deliciously vicious and sinister ass any day.

The best heroine in the entire history of Jump. PERIOD.

She doesn't have a stupid sob story to illustrate a victimized hypocrite.
She was evil and rotten to the core, she knew it and relished in it. I can dance with sexy female Satan.
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Old 2013-04-11, 04:14   Link #1442
hawkeyesvn
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I'm glad that I wasn't the only one that thought Dakki is sexy as hell. The reason I got into Fushin Engi was because of her on the cover -.-. Oh, the time of 13yo...when your hormone run wild.
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Old 2013-04-12, 08:05   Link #1443
Rainrir
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@Houshin Engi

Except that

Spoiler:

@Hitler Comparison

I think Morga crossed the line with the latest revelation (two chapters back). I think he is a tragic monster, and is quite beyond any white-washing. In any case, I think he is quite a well-written character. Since that while he is quite a unforgivable monster, but you can see where he came from and understand what drives him. All the debates on his thus far have just been people emphasizing the one part of his characterization character over the other (the good side/horrid past vs the bad side/terrible present). I think we should fundamentally see him as he just is.

However, calling him Hitler is kind of...off. The historical Hitler didn't really care about ANYONE beyond his ideology, not even for Germany or Germans. When the end came, he basically ranted about how Germany failed him and was unworthy of his ideals. Hitler was a complete monster who is willing to let the entire German nation suffer and be annihilated for his vision or for their failure to achieve it. Germany was a means to an end, not the end to itself for Hitler. Morga hasn't reach that level yet.

Morga also displayed a little bit of villianous valor, and let's not forget he also doomed his own afterlife to "save his nation and protect his people", so he can walk his own talk. A better analogue, would hardcore, protective ***ish leader who can allow a another (larger) group of *******ians to endure great suffering and repress them if it means *****el can prosper, stay ***ish and democratic. A total hardass and "jerk", who nevertheless is ultimately not afraid to die and suffer himself for his cause. In Morga's case, he allowed some people to suffer so his nation can have the "ultimate deterrent".

We also can't really compare to dooming someone's afterlife to anything done in real life, since...well...I have't seen something like that in real life other than metaphorically, so dooming someone's afterlife is a little hard to be used as a meaningful comparison.

Last edited by Rainrir; 2013-04-12 at 08:41.
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Old 2013-04-12, 08:38   Link #1444
hawkeyesvn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
@Houshin Engi

Except that

Spoiler:

@Hitler Comparison

I think Morga crossed the line with the latest revelation (two chapters back). I think he is a tragic monster, and is quite beyond any white-washing. In any case, I think he is quite a well-written character. Since that while he is quite a unforgivable monster, but you can see where he came from and understand what drives him. All the debates on his thus far have just been people emphasizing the one part of his characterization character over the other (the good side/horrid past vs the bad side/terrible present). I think we should fundamentally see him as he just is.

However, calling him Hitler is kind of...off. The historical Hitler didn't really care about ANYONE beyond himself and his ideology, not even for Germany or Germans. All the way to the end, he basically ranted about how Germany failed him and was unworthy of his ideals. Hitler was ultimately a complete monster who is willing to let the entire German nation suffer and be annihilated for his vision. Morga hasn't reach that level quite as yet.

Morga at least display a little bit of villianous valor, and let's not forget he also dooms his own afterlife to "save his nation and protect his people", so he can walk his own talk. A better analogue, would hardcore, protective ***ish military leader who can allow a another (larger) group of *******ians to endure great suffering if it means *****el can prosper, stay ***ish and democratic. In Morga's case, he allowed some people to suffer so his nation can have the "ultimate deterrent".

We also can't really compare to dooming someone's afterlife to anything in real life, since...well...I have't seen something like that in real life. So dooming someone's afterlife is a little hard to be used as a meaningful comparison.
And thus we're back with Mogamett's ideal/Z***ism. But I think he's far more ruthless than ****el.
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Old 2013-04-12, 08:45   Link #1445
Rainrir
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And thus we're back with Mogamett's ideal/Z***ism. But I think he's far more ruthless than ****el.
Yeah, but the thing is that we are now going into the Hitler vs Morga territory. I don't think he is quite there yet.

On the flip side, though the level of "acceptable" suffering some very right-wing I******s (that I interacted with) to "the other" would probably appall and shock most people. I mean, we all heard of the torture ---> national security argument, which I don't doubt happen to "the other" in some circumstances (and in other more "enlightened" nations when national security is concerned). If you protest, they would tell you "better safe than sorry". What is portrayed here is basically a "fantasy" extension of that idea...except torture----> nuclear weapons ---> national security.

I think we are back here because that is basically what Morga is written to be...except a more magical version that involves afterlives and all that. Can't call a kettle something else other than a kettle.
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Old 2013-04-12, 11:11   Link #1446
aohige
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Hitler is just an arbitrarily mortal name. It doesn't matter who.
What I mean is, Mao, Stalin, I dunno Anders Beivik, it doesn't matter, none of these real-life "villains" can forcefully condemn your soul to eternity in hell.
Moga can. Moga wins the villain scale in that sense.

You're thinking too hard.
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Old 2013-04-12, 11:29   Link #1447
erdii
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ı think there isn't any kind leaders in Magi world. even Sinbad who cares about his people dearly can become a evil person when protecting his country
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Old 2013-04-12, 11:47   Link #1448
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To me it all comes down to how will you would go to protect your country. Yes his methods are pretty bad but so was lolimagi.
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Old 2013-04-12, 11:59   Link #1449
Randrak42
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Lolimagi wasn't sucking the life of a large section of the population as well as mentally torturing a large group of it and feeding them to Dark Djinn...mind you, there weren't just criminals in that group.

Lolimagi seems to care and want to protect her people, all of them, while Moga just wants to protect magicians and use Goi as batteries.
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Old 2013-04-12, 15:10   Link #1450
Anh_Minh
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Reme wasn't in nearly as much danger, though.
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Old 2013-04-12, 15:39   Link #1451
Randrak42
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Reme wasn't in nearly as much danger, though.
They have been using Goi as batteries till death long before the war started...
And the Dark Djinn were probably made before the war too.
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Old 2013-04-12, 16:53   Link #1452
Anh_Minh
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They have been using Goi as batteries till death long before the war started...
Using Gois as batteries isn't the same as making them Fall. Heck, it might not even be as harsh as using them as normal peons (grain of salt - Mogamett said that).

Quote:
And the Dark Djinn were probably made before the war too.
The war they knew was coming. Before the war, they used criminals for their black Rukh research. (Which is plenty questionable in itself, but isn't on the same scale as sacrificing all those innocents.)

They have a persecution complex that is somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy, but they're not entirely wrong either. I wish Sheherazad had used her centuries to guide Reme toward a more enlightened path. Things might not have turned as they did if she'd been able to demonstrate good faith when she said Reme wouldn't treat the magicians badly.
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Old 2013-04-12, 17:15   Link #1453
Randrak42
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Using Gois as batteries isn't the same as making them Fall. Heck, it might not even be as harsh as using them as normal peons (grain of salt - Mogamett said that).
Oh please, they put people down in a hole, sucked their life until they were near death and then threw them down a pit to end it. Not to mention that children seemed to be born weak and some probably didn't last long and they had no chance of leaving even if they wanted to.

That's pretty fucked up already and when the war started even the healthy people started collapsing and possibly dying due to the excessive drain. Being at war and in a tight spot is no excuse to practically kill your population. But oh yea...they aren't magicians so screw them.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
The war they knew was coming. Before the war, they used criminals for their black Rukh research. (Which is plenty questionable in itself, but isn't on the same scale as sacrificing all those innocents.)
Even if they knew the war was coming it's still no excuse for sacrificing innocents like that.

War is a great too people like to use to excuse their actions: "We are at war so sacrifices must be made"
It's complete and total bullshit.
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Old 2013-04-12, 17:24   Link #1454
Anh_Minh
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Oh please, they put people down in a hole, sucked their life until they were near death and then threw them down a pit to end it. Not to mention that children seemed to be born weak and some probably didn't last long
And you think that doesn't happen in normal conditions?
Quote:
and they had no chance of leaving even if they wanted to.
And yet, their life expectancy is better than if they lived as normal peons. Though the real question, which has never been answered in the manga, is "can they leave"?

Quote:
That's pretty fucked up already and when the war started even the healthy people started collapsing and possibly dying due to the excessive drain. Being at war and in a tight spot is no excuse to practically kill your population. But oh yea...they aren't magicians so screw them.


Even if they knew the war was coming it's still no excuse for sacrificing innocents like that.

War is a great too people like to use to excuse their actions: "We are at war so sacrifices must be made"
It's complete and total bullshit.
It's a sad truth. It's not like they're the only ones who died. Magicians died too. Mogamett outright sacrificed himself.

Heck, I'm not really trying to say Mogamett was right. I'm just saying, his situation isn't comparable to Sheherazad's.
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Old 2013-04-12, 20:45   Link #1455
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And you think that doesn't happen in normal conditions?
No...I'm saying that it's what happens normally...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And yet, their life expectancy is better than if they lived as normal peons. Though the real question, which has never been answered in the manga, is "can they leave"?
Highly doubt they can leave, the area itself is restricted and a secret to all but the high ranks, they are regularly inspected and their weak and dying thrown into a pit...I highly highly doubt they would even care to listen to someone saying they want to leave.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It's a sad truth. It's not like they're the only ones who died. Magicians died too. Mogamett outright sacrificed himself.
We're talking about civilians, not soldiers. The magicians that died joined the war voluntarily and they should have known the risk of going into battle...the people down in the 5th level were innocent civilians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Heck, I'm not really trying to say Mogamett was right. I'm just saying, his situation isn't comparable to Sheherazad's.
That is true, their situations are very different but it's been clear since the very beginning that Dumblemort didn't give two shits about Goi and would sacrifice them in a heartbeat if it benefits magicians, but Lolimagi has yet to show such traits or even done anything like that to her own people.

So in my eyes...Dumblemort is still 100 times worse than Lolimagi.
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Old 2013-04-13, 02:54   Link #1456
Anh_Minh
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No...I'm saying that it's what happens normally...
By "normal conditions", I mean in normal countries without magoi absorption devices. Poverty kills people in many ways (starvation, disease, crime...)

Quote:
Highly doubt they can leave, the area itself is restricted and a secret to all but the high ranks,
Only the younger students don't know. But outsiders don't know either, so maybe you're right.

Quote:
they are regularly inspected and their weak and dying thrown into a pit...I highly highly doubt they would even care to listen to someone saying they want to leave.
We can blame Mogamett and his system for that, but they're without pride. They don't seem to crave a life of toil to earn a living, preferring to be idle and get fed anyway. Even if the end is somewhat unpleasant.


Quote:
We're talking about civilians, not soldiers. The magicians that died joined the war voluntarily and they should have known the risk of going into battle...the people down in the 5th level were innocent civilians.


That is true, their situations are very different but it's been clear since the very beginning that Dumblemort didn't give two shits about Goi and would sacrifice them in a heartbeat if it benefits magicians,
If it saved them. It's fear, not greed that drives him.

Quote:
but Lolimagi has yet to show such traits or even done anything like that to her own people.

So in my eyes...Dumblemort is still 100 times worse than Lolimagi.
Two hundred years and an unrivaled empire, and what did she produce? Slavers and conquerors. An empire in which, I notice, there's still plenty of oppressed underclass.

At least, whatever bad choices Mogamett made, were guided by justified fear. What's Sheherazad's excuse?
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Old 2013-04-13, 03:41   Link #1457
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181:

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Old 2013-04-13, 04:55   Link #1458
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181:

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Old 2013-04-13, 10:28   Link #1459
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Old 2013-04-13, 10:34   Link #1460
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