AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > General Anime

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-04-12, 23:09   Link #41
Dr. Casey
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tennessee
Age: 27
Well, it depends on the definition of virtual reality; it's not full-immersion virtual reality ala Sword Art Online or anything (which is what most people think of when they hear the term 'virtual reality'), but it's a far deeper level of immersion than what gamers are used to, and it's convincing enough that those who've tested out the system were left in a state of euphoria and said that it felt like they were right there in the game's world.

Last edited by Dr. Casey; 2013-04-12 at 23:19.
Dr. Casey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-13, 02:20   Link #42
asaqe
Augumented Paranoia
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I think that is the entire difference. Cartoons have also always been "mainstream" for kids, and anime continues to be popular in Japan with kids as well. When people talk about anime going "mainstream", they generally mean that it becomes part of mainstream adult culture -- things that working adults talk about around the proverbial water cooler just like sports, celebrities, and the latest TV shows and movies. Or perhaps more to the point, that adults can say they're an anime fan and not be looked-down upon or thought of as weird. It becomes part of the "public consciousness" and begins to get attention in the media. It becomes "normal".

Of course, I think anime isn't even that mainstream among adults in Japan, so it's a pretty steep hill to climb. And, like I said before, the main issue is why you'd choose animation as a medium for something designed to appeal to a broad cross-section of adults given all the other options at your disposal.
And the situation isn't helped by the fact that either "artistic" anime failed to pass the anime dvd sale requirements and the constant fact Japan is becoming MORE conservative in an age where we have seemingly abandoned morality in television and video games. A good example will be the earthquake, rather than making grittier entertainment, the current industry in Japan is aiming to spark optimism into the hearts of those afflicted by the disaster. As quote by someone who was discussing about the shift in tone of Kamen Rider and Tokusatsu:

Quote:
As these anons say, cultural sensibilities change. Increasingly, children are living in broken homes and are being exposed to violence in the news, suicide, and natural disasters. The executive producer of Fourze mentioned that after the Tohoku Earthquake, the writers group was forced to basically sit down and say, "What are we going to do to this series after this earthquake? This is the first new Rider since the disaster and many of our viewers have been affected in some way. We can't have a series about disaster and chaos."

Kamen Rider and Super Sentai are now done almost exclusively by committee. The writers come up with a short list of ideas (including a basic outline of the toys) and present them to the committee. The committee is responsible for deciding which series will air next. Going into it, the writers group is also usually briefed by market researchers on what is (or was) becoming popular among the particular target age groups, so they usually have at least something to go on.

So you can sometimes see this when something like Magiranger comes out, Harry Potter's popularity was very high in Japan. Kiva hit after the Twilight books were translated into Japanese, but before the first film
In the US, the creators and execs will go "meh, lets make stuff related to this kind of stuff". Modern Warfare was similar to 24 in tone, you are part of a badass team of special ops with a 99% mortality rate and will torture, risk civilian lives just to make sure the other guy doesn't get away. Science fiction shifted from "next frontier" to "we are living like we are at the end of the world and we are not discussing philoshopy and ethics. No we are fucking, killing and drinking like hard men and women."

Sex appeal wise Japan also fails despite having to push BD sales. OVA lacks the same amount of edge as an HBO show which almost guarantees sex. Anime? Maybe bare tits and service but rarely you see softcore happening.
__________________
Old McDonald had a farm...Eyey Eyey O...And on his farm he had a Khzithak...Eyey Eyey O...With a ARHHFAHHAAAAAAAAARRRGIIIAAA HELP AAAUUU HELP! IT'S GNAWING OFF MY...
asaqe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-13, 08:27   Link #43
Eragon
Star Crossed, literally.
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: In the warm embrace of ice.
Age: 21
I would rather not have anime going mainstream - not that it will anytime soon. It works fine as a niche market which can satisfy almost all of its customer base's varied tastes - even if some get more "preference" at any given period of time.

As for the question in particular, I'm not sure - are we talking about the US or the West in general? For the US it would have to be something like GitS, I guess. One badass character(also dark and gritty setting) is all it takes, I think (don't take this too seriously)
__________________
Signature courtesy of rikikai

Last edited by Eragon; 2013-04-13 at 08:38.
Eragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-13, 08:38   Link #44
Sumeragi
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
My question would be..... What is mainstream?
Sumeragi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-13, 09:05   Link #45
Bri
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Animation, and I'm not even talking anime, is too abstract to have a wide appeal. Mainstream audiences want 'real' events and people/characters they can easily relate to.

Shows like the Simpsons, South park etc. have found their niche. Sharp or even non-PC social commentary hidden behind the excuse of "it's only a cartoon" to appear harmless. Same way stand-up-comedy and sci-fi operates.

Come to think of it, I can't recall anyone on this board to have written anything positive on shows like American Idol, Jersey Shore, Oprah etc. Are anime fans different from mainstream viewers?
Bri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-13, 11:14   Link #46
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
I would rather not have anime going mainstream - not that it will anytime soon.
I'm honestly a bit surprised to read you express this position. I vaguely recall you once expressing a desire for more shows like Cowboy Bebop, Ghost in the Shell, Black Lagoon, and Full Metal Alchemist.

If I'm recalling correctly here, then anime going mainstream would almost certainly mean more shows like that. You wouldn't want that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Animation, and I'm not even talking anime, is too abstract to have a wide appeal. Mainstream audiences want 'real' events and people/characters they can easily relate to.
I disagree. Many individual cartoons and/or anime shows are mainstream, so I don't think it's impossible for the medium as a whole to become that.

And animation is certainly no more abstract than most video games are, and video games have been mainstream for decades now.

Plus, the success of The Lord of the Rings movies really flies in the face of your argument here. I doubt most modern movie-going audiences can relate all that well to people living in a world with medieval-level tech and the sort of magic and monstrous beings that can be found in the world of LotR. And yet, the LotR movies did exceptionally well. People like abstraction and escapism from time-to-time.


Quote:
Come to think of it, I can't recall anyone on this board to have written anything positive on shows like American Idol, Jersey Shore, Oprah etc. Are anime fans different from mainstream viewers?
I sometimes check out American Idol, just for the musical performances. I usually enjoy that. The actual competitions I don't care as much about because, to the best of my knowledge, few American Idol winners have actually gone on to be very successful full-time music artists. Off the top of my head, the only ones I can name are Kelly Clarkson and Carrie Underwood.

I'm not much into modern American TV dramas.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-13, 12:11   Link #47
CJ_Walker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Los Angeles, California
Age: 30
to answer the question: More shows like Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo, Steins Gate, Psycho Pass Shinsekai Yori, Madoka, Shingeki no Kyojin, etc etc. . .

Less shows like Clannad, Sakaraso pet whatever, harem show #485345, Shows with lots of retarded fanservice, shows with panty shots: seriously if there is even ONE panty shot in a show, most people in the "mainstream" audience will instantly think anime is some weird/sick/fetish/pedophilia(given that a majority of the anime females look like they are about 12-15) horror to stay away from. This is why I tell no one "IRL" I like anime, I never mention it, period. IRL I don't mention that I've lived in Japan for a number of year and know Japanese (unless I speak to Japanese people) as Anime wasn't really popular at all when I went, hell I didn't know about it till this Japanese guy gave me some of his old stuff while I was there...telling me I'd like it. Pretty much in the year I left it all of a sudden got really popular. . .along with all the weirdness too.
less "I can't believe my little sister is this cute" type shows. . .less INCEST or hints at it! (seriously that is some weird shit even for me and I'm pretty tolerant of weird shit)

oh yeah and less of guilty crowns, high school fan service zombie flicks, HIGH SCHOOL/JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL shows, in fact I'll go so far as to say that those school setting shows will never draw in mainstream audiences (most shows like that can easily fall under the pedophile category, all it takes is a shot that focuses on a girls legs, body for one second, mentions sex or ecchi or whatever, has girls with skirts too short for high school. . .at least the high schools that mainstream audiences went to)

in other words. . .


NEVER.

so either you just gotta make friends who are into anime, and keep quiet about it to other people, or just make yourself look weird and go balls to the walls anime fan I know a couple of people like this and it's . . . really sad. . .everyone else thinks they are laden with down syndrome. . .but then they act like those bad cosplayers you see on the net.

or you can just go my route and just not mention anime at all, and if its mentioned I act like I don't know what they're talking about, and don't make a big deal about it. . .just shrug it off as "meh, I'll check it out when I get the chance" and leave it at that.

Anime will never be accepted by mainstream audience so it's best to not have your enjoyment ruined by that fact.

The CLOSEST anime-ish show to becoming mainstream was Avatar the last airbender.

but that show was ACTUALLY GOOD! lol I'd rank it up there with the top tier anime shows of the "golden age" of anime
CJ_Walker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-13, 12:20   Link #48
hyl
sneaking like a cat
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ_Walker View Post
Less shows like Clannad, Sakaraso pet whatever, harem show #485345, Shows with lots of retarded fanservice, shows with panty shots: seriously if there is even ONE panty shot in a show, most people in the "mainstream" audience will instantly think anime is some weird/sick/fetish/pedophilia(given that a majority of the anime females look like they are about 12-15) horror to stay away from.
I can't say anything about sakurasou no pet, because i haven't watched it but how does Clannad fit into the description of being a fanservice serie with panty shots?

As for the rest of your post, i am not even going to start a discussion with you on that.
hyl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-13, 12:24   Link #49
Sumeragi
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ_Walker View Post
to answer the question: More shows like Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo, Steins Gate, Psycho Pass Shinsekai Yori, Madoka, Shingeki no Kyojin, etc etc. . .

Less shows like Clannad, Sakaraso pet whatever, harem show #485345, Shows with lots of retarded fanservice, shows with panty shots: seriously if there is even ONE panty shot in a show, most people in the "mainstream" audience will instantly think anime is some weird/sick/fetish/pedophilia(given that a majority of the anime females look like they are about 12-15) horror to stay away from. This is why I tell no one "IRL" I like anime, I never mention it, period. IRL I don't mention that I've lived in Japan for a number of year and know Japanese (unless I speak to Japanese people) as Anime wasn't really popular at all when I went, hell I didn't know about it till this Japanese guy gave me some of his old stuff while I was there...telling me I'd like it. Pretty much in the year I left it all of a sudden got really popular. . .along with all the weirdness too.
less "I can't believe my little sister is this cute" type shows. . .less INCEST or hints at it! (seriously that is some weird shit even for me and I'm pretty tolerant of weird shit)

oh yeah and less of guilty crowns, high school fan service zombie flicks, HIGH SCHOOL/JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL shows, in fact I'll go so far as to say that those school setting shows will never draw in mainstream audiences (most shows like that can easily fall under the pedophile category, all it takes is a shot that focuses on a girls legs, body for one second, mentions sex or ecchi or whatever, has girls with skirts too short for high school. . .at least the high schools that mainstream audiences went to)

in other words. . .


NEVER.
Basically, things that are better than all the crap that is shown on US TV?
Sumeragi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-13, 12:24   Link #50
Chaos2Frozen
The Evil Within
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Moon that Wizard came from
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
I can't say anything about sakurasou no pet, because i haven't watched it but how does Clannad fit into the description of being a fanservice serie with panty shots?

As for the rest of your post, i am not even going to start a discussion with you on that.
Sakurasou isn't, thats why nothing he says after the first paragraph is valid and the perfect example of why the Anime industry should just ignore the west.

Nobody else complains more base on their individual illusions than them.
Chaos2Frozen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-13, 12:59   Link #51
totoum
Oppai warrior
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to totoum
One thing that would help is if Hollywood finally got manga/anime adaptation right.That could lead into more people looking for the original material and spark an interest (I'm looking at you Shane Black , hope you manage to not let the execs butcher Death Note).

On a similar note, if Del Toro's Pacific Rim is a commercial success,maybe mecha will be the next big thing in Hollywood and it'll create new mecha fans who might look into its origins.

Ok,I admit,a lot of this is wishful thinking
__________________
totoum is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-13, 13:03   Link #52
bhl88
Otaku Apprentice
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Unseen Horizon
Send a message via MSN to bhl88 Send a message via Yahoo to bhl88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Basically, things that are better than all the crap that is shown on US TV?
Probably xD
__________________

Dang it Avalon, you c(XD LOL)-block Shirou and Reinforce, but don't protect his mind in other ways? What is wrong, you woman?
Friendship, be made! Magical power, gather! Starlight Breaker.... this world!
bhl88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-13, 13:04   Link #53
Bri
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I disagree. Many individual cartoons and/or anime shows are mainstream, so I don't think it's impossible for the medium as a whole to become that.

And animation is certainly no more abstract than most video games are, and video games have been mainstream for decades now.

Plus, the success of The Lord of the Rings movies really flies in the face of your argument here. I doubt most modern movie-going audiences can relate all that well to people living in a world with medieval-level tech and the sort of magic and monstrous beings that can be found in the world of LotR. And yet, the LotR movies did exceptionally well. People like abstraction and escapism from time-to-time.
Other than children's shows? I can name very few. It's still 'not done' for adults to admit to be interested in animation.

Video games have only entered mainstream recently mostly through simplified consoles like the WE and mobile devices. For the rest it's still heavily associated with geek culture. LotR is a borderline case, literary medieval fantasy is as socially acceptable as fantasy can get. Something similar happened with Star Wars which also escaped it's genre confines.
Bri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-13, 18:40   Link #54
Eragon
Star Crossed, literally.
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: In the warm embrace of ice.
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'm honestly a bit surprised to read you express this position. I vaguely recall you once expressing a desire for more shows like Cowboy Bebop, Ghost in the Shell, Black Lagoon, and Full Metal Alchemist.

If I'm recalling correctly here, then anime going mainstream would almost certainly mean more shows like that. You wouldn't want that?
I have a problem with the "mainstream" thing. Its vaguely(since I don't have solid stats) supported by what's happening to gaming industry - I said vaguely. And I don't think going mainstream would mean shows like GitS quality would be produced or would be in demand. My quote for that being a mainstream taste was partly a joke

What I mean is, I'm fine with anime remaining a niche market. It doesn't have to go mainstream to produce shows like those that I mentioned - if that is the only motivation for such a change, which I most probably think is not the case. But, that's just my take on it.
__________________
Signature courtesy of rikikai
Eragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-14, 12:28   Link #55
Shyni
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: nowhere
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
It'll take someone in the marketing department at Sentai or Funimation looking at Moe School Girls Doing Cute Things and saying, "Hey, Bob, why are we trying to market this show to geeks? Why don't we get a good dub cast -- like professional actors, not the usual assortment of squeaky voiced girls -- and convince Disney to put this on with their teenybopper shows?"

Let's face it, if you show K-on or Squid Girl to an American and ask them who the target demographic is, they're going to say, "Ten year old girls." And yet that's not who the shows are marketed to -- companies assume that if the show is aimed at adult men in Japan, it should be aimed at adult men in America, never mind cultural differences.
I'm not sure if this is really relevant but, K-on did get broadcast on Disney Channel... in Japan. I think it's somewhat more family-friendly than other anime based on seinen manga.
Shyni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-14, 20:31   Link #56
0utf0xZer0
Pretentious moe scholar
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
I can't say anything about sakurasou no pet, because i haven't watched it but how does Clannad fit into the description of being a fanservice serie with panty shots?

As for the rest of your post, i am not even going to start a discussion with you on that.
Because it's an angry rant that lumps all moe and ecchi shows together rather than recognizing the breadth of fan preferences and available material.

(As for Sakurasou, it's more fanservicy than I tend to like but it's also got a pretty decent storyline and Mashiro is adorable.)

Ironically, he just perfectly demonstrated exactly why moe fans like me tend not to be big on the idea of anime going mainstream - if these sorts of attitudes persist within certain segments of the fandom, what can we expect from the mainstream? More accusations of being pedophiles for having tastes that happen to be cute and sappy? I got tired of that stereotype years ago.
__________________

Signature courtesy of Ganbaru.
0utf0xZer0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-14, 20:53   Link #57
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Meanwhile, the average night on American television either resembles a stream of snuff films and sexual violence, or is a stream of "bread and circus' reality shows of people desperately trying to get a break. That is apparently what "America" wants, pardon me but that seems to be where 'mainstream' would take the art form. I'll pass.

And yeah, that's quite a rant up there a few posts back. Not necessarily a lot of factual basis and quite a few outright misrepresentations but I think I'll just let it lay there and decay.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-14, 21:18   Link #58
relentlessflame
 
*Administrator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Meanwhile, the average night on American television either resembles a stream of snuff films and sexual violence, or is a stream of "bread and circus' reality shows of people desperately trying to get a break. That is apparently what "America" wants, pardon me but that seems to be where 'mainstream' would take the art form. I'll pass.
This reminded me for some reason of one of the more revealing psychological tidbits I picked up (that probably isn't telling you or a lot of people anything, but for the sake of the argument...).

People tend to fall in love with other people because they're attracted to what's different about them. But then, as soon as they get into some sort of committed relationship, they quickly get frustrated by those differences, and keep trying to change the person into their own image (to be more like them). They don't realize that the very same things that annoy them can be directly related to the things they liked about the person in the first place. (And then, when they finally do wear down the other party and change them, they tire of the other person and feel that the spark is gone.)

I think a lot of people fall in love with anime because it offers something different from mainstream entertainment, but then start finding these little things, like "if only there were less of <x>, it'd be way better". But I think a lot of what makes anime what it is, is because it's a result, representation and reflection of and on all aspects of Japanese culture and society -- both the "good parts" and the "bad parts". If you try to force it to change -- even with good intentions -- you're messing with a cultural formula without knowing for sure what the real outcome will be. It's not like pulling a "less fanservice" lever is going to result in "more serious, mature action shows" -- or whatever the purported trade-off is. Values changed by outside insistence/force typically result in resentment that manifests itself in all sorts of unexpected ways (in fact, you could argue that Japanese culture itself exemplifies this fact).

So anyway... that isn't to say that I necessarily think that all Japanese cultural values are wonderful or something that I'd apply to myself. But I think trying to change it to be more like the things "the average person" finds acceptable in our local cultures isn't necessarily what's good for anime, or truthfully for anyone in the end. Let the animators/authors/producers/writers/etc. do what's interesting to them based on their own experiences and naturally-evolving perspectives, and we'll get what we can out of it. They can do likewise the other way around, and maybe then we'll both grow to appreciate each other more.


(N.B. This does not mean that I'm saying foreign cultures are immune from criticism. But it should ideally be an exchange of ideas, not a "let me tell you all the ways you're doing it wrong".)
__________________
[...]
relentlessflame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-14, 22:43   Link #59
TinyRedLeaf
. . .
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
My question would be..... What is mainstream?
At this point, I don't know any more, because it's clear that a variety of definitions exist within this thread alone. I'm further bemused by the unchallenged assumption that mainstream is bad. Ghibli movies and the recent films by Mamoru Hosoda are probably as "mainstream" as animation will get in Japan, and most of these movies are just as likely to be warmly received in the West, if not already so.

Similarly, Disney animated movies are about as "mainstream" as animation gets in the United States. These films reach a broad range of audiences, without the gore and nudity of the anime titles touted as "mainstream" hits in this thread. So, again, I fail to see why anime can't be "mainstream" in the West without staying true to its artistic sensibilities, which, to me, aren't as different as people make them out to be.

In the end, a number of themes have universal appeal, regardless of the differences in cultural presentation. This idea that Westerners are too dumb to appreciate the finer aspects of anime tallies with what I think is wrong in the first place: a lack of respect for your audience.
TinyRedLeaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-14, 23:30   Link #60
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
At this point, I don't know any more, because it's clear that a variety of definitions exist within this thread alone. I'm further bemused by the unchallenged assumption that mainstream is bad. Ghibli movies and the recent films by Mamoru Hosoda are probably as "mainstream" as animation will get in Japan, and most of these movies are just as likely to be warmly received in the West, if not already so.

Similarly, Disney animated movies are about as "mainstream" as animation gets in the United States. These films reach a broad range of audiences, without the gore and nudity of the anime titles touted as "mainstream" hits in this thread. So, again, I fail to see why anime can't be "mainstream" in the West without staying true to its artistic sensibilities, which, to me, aren't as different as people make them out to be.

In the end, a number of themes have universal appeal, regardless of the differences in cultural presentation. This idea that Westerners are too dumb to appreciate the finer aspects of anime tallies with what I think is wrong in the first place: a lack of respect for your audience.
I don't know if you've actually *visited* the U.S. and spent much time there but ... respect has to be earned to some degree and it can be lost with repeated exposure. The U.S. audience is highly fractured in terms of modern commonality to the extent one could argue we have a dozen parallel cultures that barely intersect (unlike, say, twenty or thirty years ago when entertainment sources were more limited).

I suppose one could argue that the media in the US underestimates the audience but the numbers essentially say over and over again - the more banal or superficial the better the stats. Using incredibly tortured scenarios to extract maximum emotionalism from contestants and viewers at the expense of intellectual content. Prime time drama with plots paper thin and painful dialog. Even watching a science documentary often induces stupidity as the cycle of dumbing down data increases.

Oh, Ghilbi isn't "mainstream" in the US. It is barely on the radar, a bone Disney throws to the small percentage on the right of the bell curve.

I'm going to bite my tongue here because I'm trying to avoid a rant.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:40.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.