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Old 2013-04-15, 17:39   Link #41
Kyero Fox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRW View Post
lately? is been like that since FF7



I had many critism to that video (i.e. blaming it on stereotype) thought it do some great justice on how women view video game.

also it's just 1st part of the video and mainly talking to old video where most of the game use excuse plot. i will see how 2nd video goes.



say how do you make Tales to be more orientated?
There wont be a 2nd video till she makes another easy few thousand.
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Old 2013-04-15, 17:41   Link #42
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Originally Posted by RRW View Post

say how do you make Tales to be more orientated?

I don't know, and I don't mind the tales games being male-oriented, sticking to a ''gender-equal'' method of making games is just as oppressive as purely making games to supply 1 gender on it's own, someone just used it as an example as a neutral game and I don't see how it can be considered neutral when you have to ignore so much of the plot to consider it as so, for Starcraft you can do it because that's what it's known for, gameplay, the Tales of series has a much stronger emphasis on story and you have to ignore the main characters and focus solely on the side characters who just aren't as important(or are there to improve Lloyd himself) as the main characters.

I also don't know what women want in their games to make it a ''game for women'', and am not too interested in making conjecture on that. My posts really just sorta boiled down to showing that the Tales games are not Gender neutral, not that I condemn the gaming society for being ''MALE POWER HELL TO THE YEAH BROS'' or anything like that.




Quote:
Originally Posted by RRW View Post


I had many critism to that video (i.e. blaming it on stereotype) thought it do some great justice on how women view video game.

She asked for a kickstarter and made about 150k$ just for this one video, and the biggest offense she committed was disabling any type of people who wish to argue to the contrary by disabling her comments, ratings, and likes, under the excuse that she was ''threatened to be killed and raped'', which

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfkS9YS_T0k

There are also many videos that actually make arguments against the arguments she makes that are just as sensible.
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Old 2013-04-15, 17:47   Link #43
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So... At the end of the day... Nobody knows what Female Oriented games are suppose to be?
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Old 2013-04-15, 17:52   Link #44
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Tales is "Gender neutral Game" but since Game itself is mainly male hobby. the developer created it for male in mind. but there is roughly equal number of fanservice in both gender and both gender is treated (almost) equally.

let's face it. Game is male hobby. girl are welcome to play game. but they must know that the democratic of game industry is Male and industry is created based around them.

even standard game like chess and poker is dominated by Male

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So... At the end of the day... Nobody knows what Female Oriented games are suppose to be?
I would argue live simulator game like Sims, Nintendog and cooking mama is created for female
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Old 2013-04-15, 17:58   Link #45
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The first part was actually meant to be a (very bad) joke.

(I am not going to use the tales series because I haven't play those :O)
Going to hold off replying for a small bit and see if others with chip in. I think this is another example of a difference in perspective: what I (as a male gamer) perceive as gender neutral may be seen by others as male-centric.

Any game with relationship development is going to be under fire.

Wings of Liberty may be centered around Raynor, but Heart of the Swarm is all about Kerrigan, "queen of blades" and would be savior of the universe (it even has a mission where Kerrigan have to save the jailed Raynor!).
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Old 2013-04-15, 18:03   Link #46
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Actually I wondering if Joyce_Steele play DMC and Uncharted. since interestingly they are more gender neutral than Bayo and TR
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Old 2013-04-15, 18:19   Link #47
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Using Anita Sarkeesian's video to back up your claims is pretty bad, sorry. She defrauded people on Kickstarter to the tune of $150,000, ostensibly to make that video. Yeah, sorry, no, that video did not cost 150 large to make.

The video is also horseshit.

The "damsel in distress" trope isn't sexist, it's LAZY WRITING. What if the damsel is a man? Still lazy. Not progressive or forward-thinking. Just fucking lazy.
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Old 2013-04-15, 18:31   Link #48
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The video is also horseshit.

The "damsel in distress" trope isn't sexist, it's LAZY WRITING. What if the damsel is a man? Still lazy. Not progressive or forward-thinking. Just fucking lazy.
Apparent controversy surrounding the creator and the video aside, imagine that the damsel is a man. How many audience members do you think will be criticizing the captured man for being a wuss or being a sissy cause he needs a girl to save his ass? A lot, I can bet.

When a woman is captured and a man has to save her, everyone accepts it, but if it's the other way around most people think it's weird and unnatural. They find it hard to conceive of a situation where it's the man who's powerless and needs saving. The sexist difference exists, it's there. Whether you think the damsel in distress trope is lazy or not is your opinion. Regardless of your judgement on the trope, fact is that people will react differently if the sexes were reversed in the damsel trope.
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Old 2013-04-15, 18:32   Link #49
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I don't accept the damsel trope at all because it's lazy terrible writing.
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Old 2013-04-15, 18:32   Link #50
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
In the first Screenshot, I don't see how that changes much, saying Shakugan no Shana is not male-oriented because Shana is a total badass is completely false, the main character is very much a guy and the romance is played through his perspective 90% of the time, unless that Screenshot was supposed to say something else.

To bring Shakugan no Shana as an example, yes she is awesome and does almost all the fighting, but she is still very Tsundere, she has girly moments and tropes that she's mostly remembered for that are cute ''Urusai urusai urusai!'', and constant pro-male stuff happens in the entire series such as Shana randomly sleeping with the main character because ''She was tired and couldn't make the proper enough judgement to realize she was jumping in bed with some guy she just met''.

Skullgirls is a fighting game with a primarily female cast, which will have at least one male character added in, is this game aimed at females?


Sailor moon is a red-card, it was one of the earlier manga/animes that were released to us as a western audience and it has constantly been sexualized, I haven't seen much of sailor moon though so I'm not sure if it's male-oriented(that second pic was of sailor moon right?)
, It's very similar to Inuyasha, which from my point of view is more centered towards females; it has a very strong male fanbase though because there are a lot of things males can enjoy in the series, so I don't know on Sailor moon.
Shakugan no Shana? Are you seeing a different picture perhaps? That's supposed to be Magic Knight Rayearth.

Both Sailor Moon and Magic Knight Rayearth were serialized on shoujo manga magazines. There isn't much to debate here.
If not even video game adaptions of popular shoujo manga are female-oriented I don't know what else is.
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Old 2013-04-15, 18:32   Link #51
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I don't accept the damsel trope at all because it's lazy terrible writing.
And like I said, that's your OPINION.
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Old 2013-04-15, 18:37   Link #52
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Shakugan no Shana? Are you seeing a different picture perhaps? That's supposed to be Magic Knight Rayearth.

Both Sailor Moon and Magic Knight Rayearth were serialized on shoujo manga magazines. There isn't much to debate here.
If not even video game adaptions of popular shoujo manga are female-oriented I don't know what else is.
I've never seen Sailor Moon or Magic Knight Rayearth, like I said, the first screenshot you posted looked like a female jumping in to save the day or whatever so I assumed you were saying something like ''badass girls=not male oriented'', and Sailor moon is debatable to me because 90% of all ''magical girl panty flash'' parodies I've seen are a reference to Sailor Moon, there is a lot of sexualization in Sailor moon, but if you say it's just female oriented then I can't really argue because I haven't seen it.
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Old 2013-04-15, 18:38   Link #53
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And like I said, that's your OPINION.
Fine, putting aside whether or not the trope is a lazy cliche, yeah, I'll agree that "Chickification" of female characters, especially if they started out competent and became less competent for the sole purpose of being kidnapped to be rescued by the male main character?

Yeah, that's sexist.

However, it's not okay to write any sort of plot where the protagonist's loved ones are kidnapped or captured? What if the "damsel" is a child? What if the "damsel" is a well-rounded character, but just isn't a badass or has no combat ability whatsoever, and is captured by scarily competent evildoers?

Are you trying to say that female characters who can't fight are inherently sexist? That seems a bit excessive.
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Old 2013-04-15, 18:55   Link #54
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Actually I wondering if Joyce_Steele play DMC and Uncharted. since interestingly they are more gender neutral than Bayo and TR
I did and in fact I prefer those than aforementioned Bayonetta and Tomb Raider. I just found both Bayonetta and Tomb Raider(2013) are just re-skinned of versions of those games but with female protagonists. I also deliberately not to mention Persona games(especially 3 and 4) despite its popularity among female gamers.

There are lot of games for girls in Nintendo DS and 3DS but let's face it, they are made for 8-14 years old girls than adult women. None of them actually caught the eyes of critics and regular gamers.

However there still a way to make a good female-oriented game without putting some "sweeteners" like shounen-ai/yaoi elements as examples.

Here's my ideal game may look like: You play as four girls stranded on uncharted island(either tropical or temperate). Each characters have unique personality to each other such as a tomboy, a snotty rich girl, a crafty girl and very feminine girl who good at cooking. The tomboy one is the bravest and able to explore the parts of the island which other girls can't reach(she's the one who wear pants while others wear skirts) and able to chase away wolves and feral dogs(the only closest thing to combat in that game). The snotty one have expendable supplies which the crafty one can exploit and also the smartest one which can tell which plants are edible or poisonous. The crafty one can made anything which other girls brought to her like building a hut or mosquito net for examples. The feminine one is an expert cook and can cook anything as long as the tomboy one brought for her and the snotty one tell her it safe to eat. All of them need to develop 'trust meter' among each other and please it is nothing to do with yuri undertones(while most male gamers would love that idea). While doesn't sound like it going to be a good game but at least you play as "girls", which I don't think it exists outside doujin gaming.
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Old 2013-04-15, 19:05   Link #55
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by RRW View Post

I would argue live simulator game like Sims, Nintendog and cooking mama is created for female
I'd say those games are gender neutral and are aimed specifically at non-gamers. I think the movie equivalent of those games would be something like the Pixar Movies.

A game that targets the female audience specifically would be those otome type dating games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joyce_Steele View Post

Here's my ideal game may look like: You play as four girls stranded on uncharted island(either tropical or temperate). Each characters have unique personality to each other such as a tomboy, a snotty rich girl, a crafty girl and very feminine girl who good at cooking. The tomboy one is the bravest and able to explore the parts of the island which other girls can't reach(she's the one who wear pants while others wear skirts) and able to chase away wolves and feral dogs(the only closest thing to combat in that game). The snotty one have expendable supplies which the crafty one can exploit and also the smartest one which can tell which plants are edible or poisonous. The crafty one can made anything which other girls brought to her like building a hut or mosquito net for examples. The feminine one is an expert cook and can cook anything as long as the tomboy one brought for her and the snotty one tell her it safe to eat. All of them need to develop 'trust meter' among each other and please it is nothing to do with yuri undertones(while most male gamers would love that idea). While doesn't sound like it going to be a good game but at least you play as "girls", which I don't think it exists outside doujin gaming.
That actually sounds kind of interesting, but I can already see how a lot of male gamers would be turned off by it. It also doesn't seem to have a lot of casual appeal so it'd be a hard sell based on current market data.
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Old 2013-04-15, 19:26   Link #56
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Joyce_Steele View Post
While doesn't sound like it going to be a good game but at least you play as "girls", which I don't think it exists outside doujin gaming.
So what's the point if it isn't fun?

And you don't need yuri undertones for the yuri fags to come running over the hills.
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Old 2013-04-15, 19:33   Link #57
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Tales of series is aimed towards men:
Then explain why Tales events often have more female fans at them than male fans? This fact basically completely negates every argument you can make against it.
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Old 2013-04-15, 19:40   Link #58
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It's not like there's a ton of games aimed at adult (30+) men either.

/shrug

And, in that particular case, one could argue that demographic is the largest demographic of gamers today, making the decision to rarely pander to it a far bigger question mark.

In the case of making games for women, putting aside the rather large brush the term "video game" encompasses, I'd say there are not many adult women who are really "into" video games. Does it suck, then, for the few that are? Sure, but that's life.

The video game industry didn't build itself out of a vacuum. A long time ago, the audience was far smaller, and far more niche. It grew slowly. The same will happen for video games aimed at women, assuming women themselves slowly gain more interest in playing them.
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Old 2013-04-15, 19:51   Link #59
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Someone might have to educate me a bit on how the Uncharteds are gender neutral...
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Old 2013-04-15, 19:54   Link #60
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Someone might have to educate me a bit on how the Uncharteds are gender neutral...
Well, there is the stereotype steeped in some truth that women are attracted to douchebags (Drake). Perhaps he's pant-worthy?

::raises sexism shields::
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