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Old 2013-03-27, 22:55   Link #141
RX-78GP04G Gerbera
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Yeah, and it was really just due to the creation of Char's Counterattack that helped change stuff up a bit.
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Old 2013-04-16, 01:25   Link #142
Admiral Larsen
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Gundam SEED and SEED Destiny. What they did for the metaseries has inflicted so much damage that its going to take much time to repair.

In terms of suits (particularly the SEED Destiny suits), the suit designs aren't really that inspired (at their best) and once SEED Destiny comes around they are just bloody awful. And I'm really angry at what they did to the DOM in SEED Destiny.

As for the characters, well the actions of the protagonists is enough to metaphorically strangle them. Its one of those instances that you want the antagonists to win. It's not helped by what happened behind the scenes.
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Old 2013-04-16, 02:00   Link #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Larsen View Post
Gundam SEED and SEED Destiny. What they did for the metaseries has inflicted so much damage that its going to take much time to repair.

In terms of suits (particularly the SEED Destiny suits), the suit designs aren't really that inspired (at their best) and once SEED Destiny comes around they are just bloody awful. And I'm really angry at what they did to the DOM in SEED Destiny.

As for the characters, well the actions of the protagonists is enough to metaphorically strangle them. Its one of those instances that you want the antagonists to win. It's not helped by what happened behind the scenes.
Already brought up my points on the first two bits, but yeah, with the third bit, I've also wanted similar things to happen in Naruto (got a little bit with A just slapping away Naruto's stupid pleas to spare Sasuke after he attacked Bee).

It's fine to have noble ideals, but you also need to have a good dose of realism or they'll more than likely fail. In some cases, the people with those ideals become no different than the corrupt people they wanted to take out of power. It's another reason why I like The 08th MS Team. The naive idealism of Shiro and Aina is constantly slapped in the face by reality and, in the end, they never did succeed in their ideals of trying to convince their own side to make peace with the other. Hell, those ideals also failed after SEED considering SEED Destiny took place just a mere two years later, and things did NOT get better during that time either, and considering other things in SEED Destiny, like the existence of LOGOS or how supposed "good guys" like Dullindal can turn out to be no better than Patrick Zala was, and so on, I don't expect ("realistically" anyway) that peace to last very long either before things break down again.

I quote Noin from Gundam Wing Endless Waltz, "It's much easier to obtain the peace than it is to maintain it."

People aren't just going to magically understand eachother and get along, much less in a short period of time, and even less after wars. This is a similar conflicting view between Amuro and Char in Char's Counterattack on Newtypes. Char was past his boiling point and got tired of trying to talk mankind into space, so he decided to force mankind off of Earth by making it uninhabitable while Amuro was one who believed in being patient and waiting for humanity to learn and grow on their own. And during the whole psycoframe phenomenon, Char comments on how humanity can have the "same warmth" (everyone there wanting to save the Earth), yet still cause such death, destruction, hatred, etc to the Earth and eachother.

What Kira and co. were doing was essentially no different than what the EA and ZAFT have been trying to do to eachother since the beginning; trying to force their own will and ideals onto everyone else and those that disagree get "removed", even if they have to use force to do so. Even Lacus notes their own hypocrisy in SEED ("We call for peace, but with weapons in our hands."). As SEED Destiny (and 00) showed, people WILL get fed up with it and strike back because, regardless of your reasons, you're still attacking them and possibly caused the unneeded deaths of many people as a result.
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"Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning
"Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon
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Old 2013-04-16, 02:15   Link #144
monster
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Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera View Post
What Kira and co. were doing
What do you actually think they were doing?
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Old 2013-04-16, 11:41   Link #145
wredsa
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I think the reason people like 8th MS team is not cuz its realistic. Its cuz we see normal grown up soldiers ( not newtype, coordinators etc. ) fighting it out with regular MS ( plus some customs ). We see real soldiers fighting it out against real soldiers.

Last edited by wredsa; 2013-04-16 at 12:05.
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Old 2013-04-16, 23:37   Link #146
Skye629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Larsen View Post
Gundam SEED and SEED Destiny. What they did for the metaseries has inflicted so much damage that its going to take much time to repair.

In terms of suits (particularly the SEED Destiny suits), the suit designs aren't really that inspired (at their best) and once SEED Destiny comes around they are just bloody awful. And I'm really angry at what they did to the DOM in SEED Destiny.

As for the characters, well the actions of the protagonists is enough to metaphorically strangle them. Its one of those instances that you want the antagonists to win. It's not helped by what happened behind the scenes.
SEED was not bad at all, DESTINY ruined almost everything that SEED had established

And Mech designs, as a reminder, are purely subjective to the individual
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Old 2013-04-16, 23:48   Link #147
RX-78GP04G Gerbera
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wredsa View Post
I think the reason people like 8th MS team is not cuz its realistic. Its cuz we see normal grown up soldiers ( not newtype, coordinators etc. ) fighting it out with regular MS ( plus some customs ). We see real soldiers fighting it out against real soldiers.
Only the people were normal really. The 08th MS Team still had much higher quality MS than the Zeon, who were still stuck with the usual Zaku II, Gouf, and Dom units. (Though they were of slightly lower quality than the RX-78-2 Gundam as the Ground Combat Gundams are made of leftover spare parts). Heck, none of the MS were really "custom" either (as in specifically made to be better, unique, etc to other MS). Different looks to the Gundams later were really due to the lack of availability of parts. Karen's Gundam's head replaced with the head of a Ground Combat GM and especially Shiro's Ez-8 given his Ground Combat Gundam was practically destroyed when trying to take down the Apsalus II.

Even Norris' Gouf, as far as we know, was not exactly a "customized" unit outside of being a limited production type of Gouf model (as total mass production of the Gouf had been shifted to the Dom in terms of ground combat MS).
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"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet
"Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning
"Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon
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Old 2013-04-17, 11:02   Link #148
wredsa
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Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera View Post
Only the people were normal really. The 08th MS Team still had much higher quality MS than the Zeon, who were still stuck with the usual Zaku II, Gouf, and Dom units. (Though they were of slightly lower quality than the RX-78-2 Gundam as the Ground Combat Gundams are made of leftover spare parts). Heck, none of the MS were really "custom" either (as in specifically made to be better, unique, etc to other MS). Different looks to the Gundams later were really due to the lack of availability of parts. Karen's Gundam's head replaced with the head of a Ground Combat GM and especially Shiro's Ez-8 given his Ground Combat Gundam was practically destroyed when trying to take down the Apsalus II.

Even Norris' Gouf, as far as we know, was not exactly a "customized" unit outside of being a limited production type of Gouf model (as total mass production of the Gouf had been shifted to the Dom in terms of ground combat MS).
Also Norris did wonderful manuver with his gouf, showing veterans are better than greens ( which is against gundam protagonist rule, they are most of the times very young and green and yet they outperform everyone else, maybe cuz some of them are newtypes and ultimate coordinators )
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Old 2013-04-17, 12:20   Link #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wredsa View Post
Also Norris did wonderful manuver with his gouf, showing veterans are better than greens ( which is against gundam protagonist rule, they are most of the times very young and green and yet they outperform everyone else, maybe cuz some of them are newtypes and ultimate coordinators )
Well, by this point, the 08th MS Team weren't exactly "green". That implies that they only recently became actual MS pilots on the battlefield, not long after getting through training and such. That sort of thing is one of the many problems that cost Zeon the One Year War in the end; most of their veteran pilots being killed throughout the war, leaving primarily green or even still in-training pilots to man their more powerful MS (Zaku II Kai, Rick Dom II, Gelgoog series, etc) that should've otherwise owned a majority of the Federation's MS (which were piloted by now-veterans from piloting fighters as early as the One Week Battle, or newer MS pilots from the Battle of Solomon and/or other battles on Earth). Coupled with how they kept throwing money into failed projects (like various Mobile Armors and over-specialized MS) rather than having fewer, more focused projects (like their United Maintenance Plan, which didn't come until the last month of the war) and the Federation having far more resources and production capability and, like Nazi Germany, it's a formula for defeat.

But compared to an experience veteran like Norris, and piloting a MS that would excel in close-range urban combat like they were in, they may as well be, lol.

And, again, it's really AUs that tend to have that "rule". Most UC-era protagonists tend to do "meh" or "okay" early on largely due to Newtype abilities and/or technology gaps due to their Gundam(s). But as the series' continues, you usually do see those types of pilots develop both as people AND as pilots, resulting in lesser reliance on Newtype abilities and the Gundam, and more on actual piloting skill.

This is what makes ones like Amuro such a great pilot. Early on, it WAS largely the power and performance of the RX-78-2 that kept him from being killed early on by the likes of Char and Ramba Ral, but as the series continued, not only were Amuro's Newtype abilities quickly developing, but he was also gaining actual piloting experience (especially given the technology gap between the Gundam and Zeon's MS quickly closed within the next couple months). He's actually one of the only Gundam protagonists to use the SAME Mobile Suit throughout the entire series (anime-wise anyway; Gundam: The Origin actually has the initial RX-78-2 destroyed and Amuro getting the RX-78-3, which is just a RX-78-2 with the magnetic coating for experimental purposes), and the only upgrade the RX-78-2 Gundam ever actually got was the magnetic coating on the joints due to Amuro's Newtype abilities outperforming the Gundam's initial design limitations.

Yeah, there were several planned upgrades for the RX-78-2 (like the Gundam Full Armor Type) and better/specialized Gundams developed for Amuro and the White Base (Pixie and Alex), but none of them ever made it for one reason or another, and Amuro's use of the RX-78-2 alone resulted in several of those projects being dropped anyway.

In the end, Amuro culminated into a strong combination of both superb piloting skills AND powerful Newtype abilities, which is why he is constantly seen as one of, if not the best Gundam pilot (the closest would probably be Uso in Victory Gundam). Other pilots are usually further towards one end of the scale or the other. Like Char is a lot more raw piloting skill while his Newtype powers are actually pretty weak while, on the other side, ones like Kamille and Judau were a lot more about powerful Newtype abilities (and equipment, like the Bio-sensor) than raw piloting skill.
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"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet
"Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning
"Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon
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Old 2013-04-17, 13:07   Link #150
wredsa
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Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera View Post
Well, by this point, the 08th MS Team weren't exactly "green".
Exactly My point ... the battle is between fully professional veterans without haxxor abilities. That is one of the reasons people like 8th Ms team.
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