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Old 2013-04-13, 09:40   Link #32121
Oroboro
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“Ryukishi: I think for that her, who lived for love, at the moment that was fulfilled, her life was fully completed. That’s why to preserve that feeling perfectly for eternity, so that no one could destroy it, she just wanted to quickly seal herself in the catbox.”
This kind of attitude was almost explicitly spelled out in EP2, when Shannon declares that once she accepted George's ring, it was the same thing as actually getting married, and then proceeds to seal that moment away in a closed room.
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Old 2013-04-13, 10:04   Link #32122
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We pretty much knew that Lion was a guy. However I have been thinking something like this recently. What if the gender was indeterminable?
(It's a scientific fact that sometimes a child of incest is not healthy.)
Perhaps there was another reason on why Natsuhi didn't want to accept the child? Maybe she thought it was a freak.
'It's not my child' + 'it's a freak' could make her think of murdering the baby.
So let's say Lion assumed he was a boy. While Yasu was raised as a girl.
As for why Lion was raised as a boy, for Kinzo that would be more...acceptable, since we know that the dude is sexist Anyway, is there any holes in this?
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Old 2013-04-13, 19:09   Link #32123
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
To be fair, there were already plenty of interview quotes that implied those things. People just tend to conveniently ignore them.
The more he says it, the more sure it is that that's what he really intended for the characters and isn't just him going off on a weird tangent.

On the other hand, JJ has a point in that even if Ryukishi keeps confirming the details about what Yasu wanted to do ASAP once her love was confirmed, it doesn't automatically mean that she had to be the culprit.

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Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
This kind of attitude was almost explicitly spelled out in EP2, when Shannon declares that once she accepted George's ring, it was the same thing as actually getting married, and then proceeds to seal that moment away in a closed room.
...Although this sort of thing happening in the series itself doesn't help.

Given that Ryukishi is apparently telling us that Yasu had no real hope for the future besides getting her love confirmed and then getting sealed dead in a catbox right after, it really, really sucks that we were never shown the process of the vital few years where she reached that point. It's hard to guess whether she was planning to just off herself or just blow up everyone.

One thing in favour of the much-criticised Ikuko theory is that those few years could have been held back because they could show that in fact Yasu wasn't that evil and/or hopeless and was sensibly planning a new life elsewhere. (Cons: the situation with Battler/Tohya later on is arguably on the evil side, unless perhaps Battler was the culprit.)
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Old 2013-04-13, 20:07   Link #32124
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Isn't it possible that Yasu/Lion was hermaphrodite from birth? In that case Lion's "being male" could easily be explained by Kinzo wanting a male successor.
Well, of course it is also possible that Lion was born male and/or Yasu was not the kid that fell from the cliff, but just a random adpopted child X.
So, in my opinion, nothing was really "confirmed" about Lion being male. What however was confirmed, is that in public Lion was considered a male.

But technically Lion is just a spin-off character or even an alternate universe character anyway so it doesn't really matter much, as long as we are not 100% sure that Lion = "Yasu that did not fall from the cliff".
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Old 2013-04-13, 21:44   Link #32125
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Isn't it possible that Yasu/Lion was hermaphrodite from birth? In that case Lion's "being male" could easily be explained by Kinzo wanting a male successor.
Well, of course it is also possible that Lion was born male and/or Yasu was not the kid that fell from the cliff, but just a random adpopted child X.
So, in my opinion, nothing was really "confirmed" about Lion being male. What however was confirmed, is that in public Lion was considered a male.

But technically Lion is just a spin-off character or even an alternate universe character anyway so it doesn't really matter much, as long as we are not 100% sure that Lion = "Yasu that did not fall from the cliff".
I've considered Yasu could have been something similar to Sadako from the Ring (the Ring should be pretty popular in Japan) and have been an intersex infant.
While this would explain why Ryukishi didn't want to explain it, as it's way more complicate than saying Yasu's reproductive organs got damaged by a fall and would make Genji and Co look marginally better (they hadn't just switched the sex of a person, they just had chosen to give Yasu the opposite sex of the one Kinzo's chosen between the 2 available for Yasu), Yasu seems to insist it was a would that damaged him/her.
So, either she was feed with lies AGAIN or the would she likely got due to her fall had some relevance in her body being unable to love.
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Old 2013-04-13, 23:44   Link #32126
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
What however was confirmed, is that in public Lion was considered a male.
Good point. That snippet from Ryukishi also seemed to indicate that Lion personally identified as a man as well as being one in public.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I've considered Yasu could have been something similar to Sadako from the Ring (the Ring should be pretty popular in Japan) and have been an intersex infant.
That actually is plausible. Lion would be a kid who had been accepted by Natsuhi and probably brought up as a man (I can't see the Ushiromiyas being the type to not assign a gender to the baby), with Yasu being the one it was more convenient to bring up as a woman. There could even have been some surgical intervention, if it was necessary. And like you said, Yasu might still have received injuries from a fall.

If is the case that he was intersex, it's possible that Lion had been aware of his condition for a fairly long time.
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Old 2013-04-13, 23:53   Link #32127
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I'd note that as far as I've read, the majority of children resulting from incest are perfectly typical.. Not that there isn't a higher risk of some kind of congenital problem, but most pieces of fiction blow it way out of proportion compared to the actual risks involved.

Typically, if a baby is born with ambiguous genitalia. the doctor will, uh, make things less ambiguous. Though Lion was a secret birth, so, maybe that wasn't possible. Also, we have literally no reason to think Natsuhi thought there was something off with the baby itself. I know, 'Later Queen Problem' and all, but as far as we know right now, the passages say pretty directly that she was mostly just offended that the baby was THERE, and what it'd mean for her as a woman and wife.

It also sounds weird that Kinzo would raise someone that has a typical female body as a boy because "lol misogyny". It just seems to present more problems than it's worth for a kid he's already willing to make a crap ton of exceptions for in their life, right?
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Old 2013-04-14, 04:42   Link #32128
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Yasu seems to insist it was a would that damaged him/her.
But maybe Yasu was not thinking about physical damage. It could as well mean that "because I fell down at that time, my life was ruined" or something like that, not thinking about the damage on her body, but about the consequences.
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Old 2013-04-14, 07:35   Link #32129
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But maybe Yasu was not thinking about physical damage. It could as well mean that "because I fell down at that time, my life was ruined" or something like that, not thinking about the damage on her body, but about the consequences.

Well, this is Yasu's complain from Ep 7:

Quote:
"Why...?!! Why did you save me?! Why didn't you let me die?! Because of that terrible injury, ......I've been forced to live in a body like this!! I never wanted to live in a body like this!! This body that isn't even capable of love......!! What's...what's the point in living like that?! This isn't a human's life...!! It's like being furniture!!
That's right, I'm...furniture...!! Furniture...!! Why......why didn't you let me die back then?!! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh......!!!"
She clearly complains about an injury, not about physical malformation at birth or consequences the fall had on her life.

Of course the injury could have been just something that worsened her condition, or not wishing to explain her the whole problem, the injury could have been blamed for her condition (which seems stupid but those 3 had done stupider things) but that's speculation similar to when Erika made a George's family culprit theory using the fact that the rules gave her freedom to make up things that weren't included in the story presented.

I'm not saying it's wrong (actually I like it more) but I think it's more unlikely than the explanation offered using solely what's said in the story.
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Old 2013-04-14, 10:25   Link #32130
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Whatever the situation, it's something which Yasu believes to be physical. I don't think her dialogue makes sense strictly metaphorically. That doesn't necessarily mean she's correct, but there's gotta be something going on to lead to that conclusion. Or something she was told. And I can't see Genji trying to traumatize her, so either she's taking something pretty normal way out of proportion or something messed up did indeed happen.
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Old 2013-04-14, 13:18   Link #32131
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What do you think Genji would tell Yasu more likely?


That (s)he "became infertile because of an injury"?

Or do you think it is rather that (s)he "was born infertile because of a genetic defect that was caused by Kinzo impregnating his own daughter"?


I am sure that Genji told Yasu the truth later on... but I don't think he did at the moment where Yasu was complaining about it.
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Old 2013-04-14, 18:52   Link #32132
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
What do you think Genji would tell Yasu more likely?


That (s)he "became infertile because of an injury"?

Or do you think it is rather that (s)he "was born infertile because of a genetic defect that was caused by Kinzo impregnating his own daughter"?


I am sure that Genji told Yasu the truth later on... but I don't think he did at the moment where Yasu was complaining about it.
Honestly why to drop in a lie about her fertility in that moment? Expecially if they planned to tell her the truth? And more important, why to show us that moment if Yasu later on knew the truth? It generated a false impression of Yasu's problem being caused by the fall in the reader, a false impression that's completely not needed.

Besides Yasu just discovered she was Kinzo's heir. She might want to know why she didn't live with the Ushiromiya and consider showing up and claiming the inheritance.
Now... even if she was told that Natsuhi dropped her and that's why she wasn't raised in the Ushiromiya family the question would beg further explanations:

So she dropped me and you did nothing to her but sent me in an orphanage?
And why was the truth kept hidden to my father?
What if I show up and reveal the truth?

Genji basically kidnapped her under the belief to protect her not just by Natsuhi but also by her father and if she'll show up and claim she was the baby of X years ago (was it 17 at that point? Can't remember...) she'll end up being informed back then she was a baby boy, not a baby girl.

Also Yasu's words were all in red.

Sorry, I told you, I'll prefer if it was genetic but right now it seems we're forcing a solution when everything in the tale points to another one.

Yes, our solution would probably be better... but it doesn't look like the intended one.
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Old 2013-04-14, 21:39   Link #32133
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Quote:
Also Yasu's words were all in red.
Psst. That's not that that overtone meant.
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Old 2013-04-15, 00:00   Link #32134
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
What do you think Genji would tell Yasu more likely?


That (s)he "became infertile because of an injury"?

Or do you think it is rather that (s)he "was born infertile because of a genetic defect that was caused by Kinzo impregnating his own daughter"?


I am sure that Genji told Yasu the truth later on... but I don't think he did at the moment where Yasu was complaining about it.
I don't really think that fertility is the main issue here, but rather a physical deformity that renders Yasu unable to have sex. Considering the many sexual connotations whenever the subject of "furniture" is brought up in the first two episodes written by Yasu, it just doesn't make sense thematically for infertility to be what Yasu considered to cause him/her to be "incapable of love" leading to his/her "furniture" complex. I don't think it was even suggested that infertility would make someone "less than human" particularly considering that Natsuhi, who had fertility problems before conceiving Jessica, never at any point considered herself as "furniture". The fact that Yasu's furniture complex is just as prominent with Battler and Jessica, neither of whom indicates any interest in kids, further suggests that the problem lies in Yasu's capacity for romantic love/sex.
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Old 2013-04-15, 21:33   Link #32135
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I don't really think that fertility is the main issue here, but rather a physical deformity that renders Yasu unable to have sex.
Given all the means there are of having sex, that's....not really possible. Yasu has to know that, she's not THAT stupid.

You do bring up a point that it's probably not a "kids" issue, but the more likely idea is that she feels disgusted with her body and feels she's UNWORTHY of love. That she "can't" be in the same way that a closeted, self-hating gay person "can't love."
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Old 2013-04-16, 01:00   Link #32136
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From just before Shannon's death in EP2:
Spoiler:


I think it's pretty clear that these particular passages spoken by Beatrice hides a much deeper pain behind them, especially when we reread this part with the realization Yasu is basically screaming all of this at herself. It isn't really until this moment that Beatrice becomes the literally violent, screaming, hysterical embodiment of Yasu’s self-loathing, and it’s really horrifying and painful to see. Yasu can indulge in all the self-delusional fantasy (regarding the ideal that "love is beautiful") (s)he wants but knows deep down that (s)he will ultimately find only pain and rejection from the real world as Beatrice here highlights that “men” are only drawn to Shannon because of her "womanly" qualities, i.e. her "female scent". The one obsessed with “furniture” in this instance isn’t “Shannon", but rather “Beatrice”, using it as a slur and trying to batter Shannon down with it.

Shannon tries to counter Beatrice by saying she doesn’t really have regrets, and that Beatrice is pitiful. The fantasy narrative makes Shannon look dignified in the face of Beatrice’s anger and bitterness, but it’s all different shades of Yasu’s self-loathing. Shannon perhaps represents a part of Yasu that think that her (so far non-physical) relationship with George is enough that her physical problems don’t matter. But the fact that she can’t convince herself is just another aspect of what makes her feel so repulsive and disgusting, as she tells herself "love is lust and can't be measured without sleeping together."


Also, recall Kanon and Jessica's death in this episode:

(Goats appear with blades, then Kanon shows his own "blade")

Kanon: Something like this... can't even be used to trim the roses.
Jessica: Kanon-kun…what is…
Kanon: I didn’t want…to show you.

Stripping the scene of magic, we see Kanon admitting (by showing his "blade") that he didn’t want Jessica to understand what being furniture really meant.

Beatrice mocks him for it: “So you've taken it out... How does it feel to have the fact that you are a subhuman being exposed in front of the girl you have feelings for?”

Again, the sexual connotations are fairly obvious. By revealing his “blade”, Kanon has in essence revealed that he’s “subhuman”, the definition of furniture. And what makes him “subhuman” in reality? Having been physically deformed, being stuck between sexes without any easy way to fix or mentally cope with it.
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Old 2013-04-16, 01:55   Link #32137
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I don't really think that fertility is the main issue here, but rather a physical deformity that renders Yasu unable to have sex.
...
I don't think it was even suggested that infertility would make someone "less than human" particularly considering that Natsuhi, who had fertility problems before conceiving Jessica, never at any point considered herself as "furniture". The fact that Yasu's furniture complex is just as prominent with Battler and Jessica, neither of whom indicates any interest in kids, further suggests that the problem lies in Yasu's capacity for romantic love/sex.
I agree that infertility isn't necessarily the main issue, but I do think it's quite important to the series in several ways.

Spoiler for Relevant interview quotes from Ryukishi:


So, it's more as if the infertility issue is something which was twisting the knife, but wasn't the only cause of Yasu's distress.

On the other hand, in regard to Natsuhi, I do think the infertility issue with her was supposed to parallel Yasu's condition.

Quote:
Natsuhi: It was all my fault, because I couldn't bear a child...
Quote:
Kinzo: "It's clear now that you cannot bear children. ......There must be some sort of defect in your body."
Quote:
Natsuhi: "I don't hate Father. ......If anything, ......I only hated my own body...! I detested it! I truly detested my own body for being unable to bear a child......!!"
Quote:
Natsuhi: "I couldn't stand it......, I couldn't stand it...... I hated my body...! So, I hated this baby, ......because it made my failure so apparent...!!"
So, Natsuhi thought she had a defect in her body which meant she couldn't bear a child, and she deeply hated her own body. Her self-hatred has got to be a mirror for Yasu's hatred. Although she never got called something like "furniture" (which Yasu coined many, many years later) the treatment she received from Kinzo and Eva and the pressure she felt under was certainly dehumanising. Eva didn't even stop once Natsuhi had a child.

Quote:
Eva: I'm telling you to bow down before the third ranked in the Ushiromiya family hierarchy, who is allowed to stand at the left shoulder of the head!! Know your place!! And then look in a mirror at your shabby figure!! Where on your clothes is the wing? Where are you permitted to wear the One-winged Eagle? Aren't you nothing more than a borrowed womb to house the next successor to the Ushiromiya family!! Understand your place, you lowly maidservant!!"
(Maidservant...) And yet another reference to mirrors and being unable to look at oneself. Yasu has certainly been raised in an environment where there has been an emphasis on Natsuhi's worth as being only as a womb, and where Natsuhi was considered to be a failure as a woman and a wife at the time when she couldn't conceive. It won't have done Yasu any good to be exposed to this environment. Adding into that the fact that George even talked about wanting kids, it's like Ryukishi said, Yasu will have felt a huge amount of pressure.

Aside from Natsuhi, childbearing was also introduced as a theme in regard to Kyrie, where Kyrie believed that her having a stillborn child was the reason Rudolf stayed with Asumu, and caused her "hell". Although it's harder to draw a parallel between Kyrie and Yasu.
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Old 2013-04-16, 08:46   Link #32138
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The biggest problem I have with the entire sexuality motif is that... what about Battler? We see so little of that relationship that while it's possible to believe that Yasu holds it up as a sort of pure intellectual love, I find it hard to believe this complex wouldn't somehow creep back in. I suppose it might be said that, because it predates the complex, it's somehow immune to it... but how, exactly? Especially given that Beatrice is physically everything Yasu cannot be, so there is definitely a physical component ascribed to it.

It's almost like the furniture complex is a justification for rejection because Yasu is holding out for what she actually wants. The real problem isn't the inability to love physically, but the fact that she doesn't truly love anyone but Battler, so the only love that would remain for George or Jessica is necessarily physical and thus not possible. She then tries to pass it off as self-directed rage because she can't blame the two of them for something that's entirely her fault.

Also, I really can't see a person who goes into this sort of self-loathing breakdown as being capable of executing these sorts of murders. Someone that emotionally and physically unstable is probably only getting away with it through authorial fiat. And then, well, you know, there's the issue that the author is clearly not crazy in the same way, so it almost feels like the self-loathing is intentionally exaggerated.

If it isn't, then I don't really see what's supposed to be likeable about this character. "Leads people on for selfish reasons, gets mad at them and herself for things that are completely her own fault, snaps and murders everyone she claims to love?" Yeah, sorry, there's no "love" for that character that can convince me to wring out a drop of sympathy. So I'd like to think it's just theatrics for Battler's sake... but then I still don't know what the whole complex would do to that relationship were it to be restarted. Is she just holding out hope that Battler doesn't care? Is Pervy Battler a way to again justify her rejection by characterizing him as someone to whom physicality matters? Was that actually not the case?
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Old 2013-04-16, 13:52   Link #32139
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I really can't agree with the idea that Yasu's self-loathing is some kind of exaggeration at all. If anything, it's practically the defining point of her character. The fact that she sees herself as furniture, her hatred of herself for being unable to love, the constant self-vilification and mockery of her own beliefs that is so present in her message bottles...It's most certainly an important point, and really, I don't see anything that unbelievable about it. I'm honestly continually stricken by how genuinely human Yasu's character is, actually.

And as for whether she makes a believable culprit, well...the fact is, a lot of people commit murder, and many of those aren't people that would have seemed to be the type to kill to the outside, even to those who felt they were really close to the person in question. Self-hatred is seriously an incredibly destructive thing, as I know from experience; if it's kept bottled up inside for long enough, without anyone else knowing about it, it can definitely become all-consuming and yes, it can ultimately turn into a total apathy and inability to care about anything, like the Beatrice we see in some of Clair's scenes or in the EP4 tea party. Such a state of mind would more likely lead to suicide than anything else, but yes, I can see it leading to some kind of desperate, futile gamble like the one Yasu ended up pulling, on the basis that she has nothing to lose anyway and can't really bring herself to care about the consequences, however much she might intelectually understand them.

...And, well, whether that's something that can be sympathised with is ultimately up to the reader, I guess! But on whether it's actually believable or not, I honestly think that it is. A person can definitely be perfectly intelectually sound, even to the extent of being able to plan and write something as complicated as the message bottle stories (and indeed the murders themselves), while still being a complete and utter mess emotionally. With all the
complicated stuff Yasu's had to deal with, I can definitely see her getting to that point. Maybe you would call that "insane", but in the end that's just a label for a state that a normal person can't identify with. Being "insane" doesn't necessarily mean that one isn't capable of logical, rational thought; a person can intelectually know that something's wrong, but that really doesn't hold much power if they're too emotionally ruined to care.

...Man, I really should stop getting into these debates, they're not good for me at all. I just can't seem to help myself from trying to defend Beatrice as a character, since she's honestly what makes Umineko for me. I'll get back to proofreading Part 6 now.
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Old 2013-04-16, 14:03   Link #32140
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[...]Yeah, sorry, there's no "love" for that character that can convince me to wring out a drop of sympathy. So I'd like to think it's just theatrics for Battler's sake... but then I still don't know what the whole complex would do to that relationship were it to be restarted. Is she just holding out hope that Battler doesn't care? Is Pervy Battler a way to again justify her rejection by characterizing him as someone to whom physicality matters? Was that actually not the case?
I think there was a scene where PieceBattler explained that he only did these "pervy things" to relieve tension.
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