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Old 2013-04-18, 19:39   Link #6461
quagmire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
I dont see how Orb scientists helping ZAFT is a big deal, Orb and ZAFT never came into direct conflict until Destiny

And the closest thing to war between them during SEED was during the final battle where Orb units were part of the Three Ship Alliance, which was more or less a rogue group consisting of defectors from all sides led by the Clyne faction

ZAFT was never a true enemy of Orb until Chairman Zala decided shoot the earth with Genesis (endangering everything on earth in the process)
Orb scientists helping ZAFT develop new stuff, not a problem. Becomes a problem when the Orb scientists give out state secrets to ZAFT.

It would be like US engineers going to China and giving the Chinese US stealth tech.....
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Old 2013-04-18, 19:47   Link #6462
Aquaman OS
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Technically they could. If they renounced US citizenship and became a chinese citizen, then used their knowledge to build US tech for the Chinese. They could never show their face in the US again of course.

The US took a few former Nazi scientists in like that after WWII.
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Old 2013-04-18, 23:10   Link #6463
Destined_Fate
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It would be because ZAFT wouldn't like it and the people of ORB wouldn't like that their own people are being tried for just trying to make a living after ORB failed to protect them in the last war. That and ZAFT took in many refugees which means that it would be nigh impossible to track down everyone that joined ZAFT and shared ORB secrets, secrets that the Feds and ZAFT already had due to the events of SEED.

It isn't illegal if ORB doesn't contest it and if ORB did than ZAFT would deny it and it would sour relations between them. ORB knows they wouldn't stand a chance against ZAFT thus all Cagalli can do is make requests that will never amount to anything because ZAFT isn't going to be able to shut up every ORB refugee working for them nor would they benefit at all from it.

Durandal even tells Cagalli quite plainly that they're all willingly working there, if they choose to use their ORB knowledge on the job than that isn't ZAFTs fault.

And are you seriously saying that ZAFT should have just let them not work even if they wanted to and were willing to become ZAFT citizens? That's like saying that a refugee fleeing a war-torn country that was granted safe haven in America shouldn't be allowed to work or talk to anyone.
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Old 2013-04-18, 23:30   Link #6464
monster
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Having watched the remastered phase 4, Durandal seems to have a face made for smirking. And it looks like this phase is the beginning of my disappointment with Athrun's character in Destiny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
I dont see how Orb scientists helping ZAFT is a big deal, Orb and ZAFT never came into direct conflict until Destiny

And the closest thing to war between them during SEED was during the final battle where Orb units were part of the Three Ship Alliance, which was more or less a rogue group consisting of defectors from all sides led by the Clyne faction

ZAFT was never a true enemy of Orb until Chairman Zala decided shoot the earth with Genesis (endangering everything on earth in the process)
A post-war agreement apparently forbids Orb from helping ZAFT.

But I don't see how this would apply to individuals who left Orb to live in the PLANTs.
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Old 2013-04-19, 00:24   Link #6465
S.Freedom
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@Destined_Fate Orb DID contest it, that was the whole point of Cagalli's visit to armory one to begin with. She'd made several formal protests but Durandal/ZAFT basically said "nanana I can't hear you nanana". And public opinion doesn't magically make what was happening go away. Illegal acts are still illegal acts no matter the situation or if people like it or not.

And yes I'm saying ZAFT should prevent them from working on such projects if there's even the slightest chance of the EA using it to start another war.

And they didn't necessarily leave to live in the PLANTS. They where refugees from the end of Seed. It'd be like the current situation in Syria. A whole bunch of Syrian nationals have found their way into nearby countries as refugees. Than those countries essentially exploit said refugees for their own gain.
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Old 2013-04-19, 01:27   Link #6466
Destined_Fate
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Public Opinion isn't effected because Cagalli didn't make it known to the public that she was angry about that and not once did Cagalli ever refer to her people as traitors nor did she ever demand that Durandal gather them up than ship them back to ORB to stand trial. All she did was complain privately behind closed doors that she doesn't want ZAFT using that tech and Durandal rightly defended that he has no way of stopping the ORB refugees from using their knowledge gained from ORB for the benefit of their new home under ZAFT.

Durandal isn't exploiting them at all and none of them are forced to stay. ORB has been rebuilt if they wanted to leave than they would have already left long before Destiny. Instead they stayed and are working with ZAFT but they at least trust ZAFT more than ORB when it comes to the Feds considering that in the last war ORB was destroyed and many ORB citizens died.

Unless Cagalli actually gets to the root of the issue, ORB Refugees that joined ZAFT and are willingly sharing their knowledge and refuse to return to ORB, than she has no reason to complain about ZAFT letting the Refugees choose whether or not to put their knowledge to good use.

So it isn't illegal in that ORB and Cagalli aren't recognizing what their former citizens are doing as illegal, instead Cagalli wrongly attacks ZAFT for offering the Refugees the option of employment. Not ZAFT's fault if those that only know how to work on MS decide to apply for MS related jobs only.
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Old 2013-04-19, 01:45   Link #6467
Admiral Larsen
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All of these arguments goes to show how stupidly and how badly the creators of SEED and SEED Destiny screwed up. And the damage is going to be with us for a very long time.
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Old 2013-04-19, 02:03   Link #6468
Skye629
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I think I am missing something here

Are the Orb scientists:

1 - Helping with new MS development from the ground up?

or

2 - Or directly providing new tech? And if so what was this (most likely the new battery recharge tech)?


Unless it was clearly stated to be 2 and specified I would think 1 to be more logical, as ORB scientists came to the PLANTS during the events of SEED, during at which time tech such as the new improved rechargeable batteries clearly did not exist, since if they had they would have been incorporated into the MS's. Also slightly before the destruction of Orb, Orb was clearly BEHIND in MS tech advances compared to ZAFT (this did not change much in Destiny, the best Orb have ever developed appears to be the Akatsuki). They were struggling to develop a decent OS for their pilots (which I find hard to believe, as Orb had coordinators too who could have probably accomplished what Kira did), while ZAFT was already developing suits that even outclassed the Second Stage series in Destiny (ZAFTs best MS within the Junius confines, eg no nuclear reactors) as well as everything else the AF could make (which did not change until ZAFT produced Destiny, Legend, SF, and IJ)

So what tech could Orb have possibly given them? Im seeing it more as the Orb scientists lended their EXPERTISE and EXPERIENCE to help Zaft develop new improved tech within the bounds of the Junius Treaty, not an outright handover of military tech, as they had nothing ZAFT would have needed at the time other than more people helping out with R&D
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Old 2013-04-19, 02:24   Link #6469
ingram1106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Larsen View Post
All of these arguments goes to show how stupidly and how badly the creators of SEED and SEED Destiny screwed up. And the damage is going to be with us for a very long time.
Please do not come for such say abusive language sake to this thread. I know you hate seed destiny.you should leave this thread.
I warned.
next time, you are recognized as Internet troll.
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Old 2013-04-19, 02:35   Link #6470
S.Freedom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
So it isn't illegal in that ORB and Cagalli aren't recognizing what their former citizens are doing as illegal, instead Cagalli wrongly attacks ZAFT for offering the Refugees the option of employment. Not ZAFT's fault if those that only know how to work on MS decide to apply for MS related jobs only.
Yes it is illegal for ZAFT to offer them jobs in those area's. As the treaty prohibits Orb/morgenrate from sharing military tech with either ZAFT or EA. What else would the purpose of offering former morgenrate engineers jobs developing MS and related tech be other than the knowledge they had. It's a clear violation of the treaties intent. Durandals comments are meant to camouflage the fact and nothing more. He's basically saying yes we violated the treaty and there isn't a dang thing you can do about it. In other words he admitted his own guilt while making half hearted justifications for doing so.

@skye629 From my understanding it's both. Orb was supposed to provide either EA or ZAFT help from a technological perspective period. Doing so would be in violation of the treaty. But as we've seen, Durandal/ZAFT more or less looked the other way while trying to claim ignorance. Or as DF is trying to say, well they did it willingly so who are we to say no if they did so of their own free will.
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Old 2013-04-19, 03:02   Link #6471
Destined_Fate
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No it isn't, they were Refugees and as far as they knew at the time ORB was gone. There was literally only ruins left and the Feds claimed it as theirs. Thus when they were taken in by ZAFT they literally had no home left or a standing Government.

The treaty is meaningless as during the fall of ORB during SEED there was no ORB Government in establishment which rendered the ORB citizens no longer citizens as their Government no longer existed and their land belonged to the Feds.

Thus no treaty was violated because at the time ORB was no more thus they weren't ORB citizens, they were Former Orb Citizens fleeing a destroyed Country that no longer had a standing Government. As far as any of them knew ORB very well may never have been taken back from the Feds and with emotions running high many would have jumped at the chance to fight the Feds to avenge their family, friends, and country.

So even if Cagalli brought all of them back to ORB for judgement it's highly unlikely anyone would be charged anyway. A huge waste of time and money that would only serve to anger ZAFT and ORB who wouldn't approve of Cagalli treating their kin as criminals when they only wanted to survive, make a living for themselves, and for some to get back at the Feds(And ZAFT was their only way to do it as ORB no longer existed as an entity in SEED after it fell, it was re-established after SEED when the Feds gave ORB back).
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Old 2013-04-19, 03:02   Link #6472
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
Also slightly before the destruction of Orb, Orb was clearly BEHIND in MS tech advances compared to ZAFT (this did not change much in Destiny, the best Orb have ever developed appears to be the Akatsuki). They were struggling to develop a decent OS for their pilots (which I find hard to believe, as Orb had coordinators too who could have probably accomplished what Kira did), while ZAFT was already developing suits that even outclassed the Second Stage series in Destiny (ZAFTs best MS within the Junius confines, eg no nuclear reactors) as well as everything else the AF could make (which did not change until ZAFT produced Destiny, Legend, SF, and IJ)
In Destiny, I would attribute Orb's seemingly lack of military advancement to Cagalli following her belief of not trying to have too much power, especially in time of peace.

That said, the Murasames should be on par with Windams and Zakus.
Quote:
So what tech could Orb have possibly given them? Im seeing it more as the Orb scientists lended their EXPERTISE and EXPERIENCE to help Zaft develop new improved tech within the bounds of the Junius Treaty, not an outright handover of military tech, as they had nothing ZAFT would have needed at the time other than more people helping out with R&D
Cagalli mentioned both technological and human resources.

But again, the treaty specifically prohibits Orb, as a nation, from giving ZAFT military assistance, and there's no evidence that Orb is violating that agreement.
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Old 2013-04-19, 03:44   Link #6473
Skye629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
In Destiny, I would attribute Orb's seemingly lack of military advancement to Cagalli following her belief of not trying to have too much power, especially in time of peace.

That said, the Murasames should be on par with Windams and Zakus. Cagalli mentioned both technological and human resources.

But again, the treaty specifically prohibits Orb, as a nation, from giving ZAFT military assistance, and there's no evidence that Orb is violating that agreement.
Ok good point about the tech difference in Destiny, when I think about it the Murasame's might actually have an edge due to being transforming aerial fighters unlike the Zaku's or the Windam's which rely on flight packs

As for what Cagalli mentioned, ok human resources, that fits the bill

I think a thing people are missing with the treaty is that these scientists came to ZAFT and joined BEFORE the Treaty even happened, thus they would be exempt from any of its articles

If in Destiny the focus was on scientists that switched sides AFTER the Treaty then yes it would be a violation

While this issue on the scientists and the Treaty is obviously part of the matter, the way I am interpreting things though is that Cagalli seemed to be more concerned about ZAFTs overall buildup in military strength

I once again attribute this lack of details and tying up of loose ends to bad writing, which always seem to be the case (then again I guess we are the minority who gives a s*** about little details like this)
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Old 2013-04-19, 04:01   Link #6474
monster
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Well, Cagalli did talk about resources that came by ZAFT after the war. One possible example is the VPS, which is based on the technology used in the Strike Rouge.

Last edited by monster; 2013-04-19 at 04:14. Reason: My mistake, it's after the Orb battle.
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Old 2013-04-19, 04:03   Link #6475
kaito-kid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Larsen View Post
All of these arguments goes to show how stupidly and how badly the creators of SEED and SEED Destiny screwed up.
Not really. this is a minor plot point of no great importance (I apparently even missed it and it didn't feel like I was missing anything.) It's purpose is to get Cagalli and Athrun involved in Armory One incident and it actually worked out fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Larsen View Post
And the damage is going to be with us for a very long time.
How so? We are already past it..

Quote:
Originally Posted by ingram1106 View Post
Please do not come for such say abusive language sake to this thread. I know you hate seed destiny.you should leave this thread.
I warned.
next time, you are recognized as Internet troll.
now, now. This is a thread where we have general discussions related to the CE. If he want's to talk about how the the quality of the TV shows then it's fine.
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Last edited by kaito-kid; 2013-04-19 at 04:16.
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Old 2013-04-19, 07:00   Link #6476
RES-01 Perses Gundam
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
No it isn't, they were Refugees and as far as they knew at the time ORB was gone. There was literally only ruins left and the Feds claimed it as theirs. Thus when they were taken in by ZAFT they literally had no home left or a standing Government.
Sorry to butt in. Technically, Orb was an occupied nation then. The EF was the occupiers. Even without a standing, pro-Orb government, Orb's state infrastructure was still intact, serving an occupier by the name of EF. So I don't understand the rubbish you just wrote, what about them no longer being Orb citizens. Refugees =/= people who lost their citizenship. Refugees are refugees because of political, ethnic, or state persecution.
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Old 2013-04-19, 07:14   Link #6477
Destined_Fate
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No, ORB had no Govenment left and the Feds had taken it over completely and established it as their own land. To be an occupied nation it would still need a standing Government or body/leadership somewhere. As far as the citizens knew there was no standing Government left nor indication that there ever would be or that anyone was left to lead ORB after its fall. After all, Cagalli wasn't even officially selected as their next Leader at that time and all the current leaders had just committed mass suicide.

Any leadership that had remained had either fled to ZAFT, defected to the Feds, or went off the charts like Cagalli who wasn't even a leader anyway - she just so happened to be the daughter of the former leader is all.

Last edited by Destined_Fate; 2013-04-19 at 09:48.
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Old 2013-04-19, 09:28   Link #6478
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Old 2013-04-19, 10:27   Link #6479
Destined_Fate
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Ah, this episode always made me get the indication that Durandal was hitting on Athrun and Cagalli was giving him the jealous eye. Athrun also has an unhealthy level of Kira exclusive flashbacks that he wasn't even at. Seriously, Flay? You didn't even know or care for her!

That Luna vs Stellar cat fight was totally put in there on purpose now that I look back. Really showed Lunamaria's skills as a ZAFT Red as she didn't get taken out despite facing three Gundams in a Zaku Warrior and her teamwork with Shinn was pretty good.

Talia also loves turning to face Athrun and give him a "wtf?" look.

Shinn was totally jealous when Lunamaria talked to Athrun and his comment about Athrun being a guy from ORB and thus not worth caring about which is ironic. As Lunamaria just said that Arthrun was Athrun meaning he's from ZAFT while Shinn is the ORB native.

Shinn just didn't want her hitting on Athrun.
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Old 2013-04-19, 12:25   Link #6480
Aquaman OS
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I the point of his flashback was alot of people he and Kira knew died in the last war, and the last thing he wanted was another one but it was looking like history was repeating it self.
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