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Old 2013-04-21, 06:23   Link #27821
Roger Rambo
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
And if peasants have enough to last the winter, they would be able to do their own science.
I'm not sure that's an entirely accurate assertion. I don't think medieval peasents would remotely have the education or information networks to do, or distribute scientific research.

Like it or not, monastic institutions did help create a surplus of learned men who for lack of a better word, weren't really engaged in anything all that conventionally useful. The thing is, this also gave you a body of people who could preserve knowledge, do rudimentary research within the fields of natural philosophy, along with having the network of communication between other monastic/religious groups to transmit the information on a small scale.

Maybe what they did seems pretty inefficient from our eyes, and it didn't jumpstart the scientific revolution as much as the printing press did, but I don't think it's very historically accurate to say that religious institutions did NOTHING to preserve/advance science.

Last edited by Roger Rambo; 2013-04-21 at 06:47.
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Old 2013-04-21, 07:50   Link #27822
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
I'm not sure that's an entirely accurate assertion. I don't think medieval peasents would remotely have the education or information networks to do, or distribute scientific research.

Like it or not, monastic institutions did help create a surplus of learned men who for lack of a better word, weren't really engaged in anything all that conventionally useful. The thing is, this also gave you a body of people who could preserve knowledge, do rudimentary research within the fields of natural philosophy, along with having the network of communication between other monastic/religious groups to transmit the information on a small scale.

Maybe what they did seems pretty inefficient from our eyes, and it didn't jumpstart the scientific revolution as much as the printing press did, but I don't think it's very historically accurate to say that religious institutions did NOTHING to preserve/advance science.
Religious institutions were the ones advancing science because no one else was allowed to.

Did the institutions advanced science? Yes. Were the institutions the reason scientific advancements were possible? NO. The plain fact is that any science not affiliated with the Church was crushed, burned, and not allowed to be published.

You give the religious institutions credit because you don't see anyone else doing science; I say they don't deserve the credit because everyone else who want to do science outside the institutions were KILLED. And their books banned.

If I ban all non-Asians from practising medicine, does that mean Asians get exclusive credit for healing people?
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Old 2013-04-21, 08:12   Link #27823
Roger Rambo
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Prior to the modern era, haven't MOST societies limited which parts of their population were allowed to engage in philosophy/science? Or at least tried to limit who could do such things to specific institutions? I mean, look at India. They had a strict cast system that barred huge portions of their population for engaging in certain activities. Yet they made many advances in mathematics. Under your logic, the Indian mathematicians don't deserve any credit, because them being the innovators was only based on keeping so much of the population suppressed. Or what about in China? Do you think that anybody outside of the Imperial examination system was allowed to do science? You don't think they tried to maintain a monopoly on who could do these things? What you're saying makes sense with modern conceptions of personal liberty and freedom of ideas. It doesn't make sense when you try to apply it to the past, and realize that most ancient societies were highly restrictive compared to the modern era.


I'm not quite comfortable with the standard you're using to judge the past, because it seems to have this judgmental air to it that seems to insinuate that every group doing science prior to the modern era were just a bunch of hacks slowing down progress.
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Old 2013-04-21, 08:33   Link #27824
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Prior to the modern era, haven't MOST societies limited which parts of their population were allowed to engage in philosophy/science? Or at least tried to limit who could do such things to specific institutions? I mean, look at India. They had a strict cast system that barred huge portions of their population for engaging in certain activities. Yet they made many advances in mathematics. Under your logic, the Indian mathematicians don't deserve any credit, because them being the innovators was only based on keeping so much of the population suppressed. Or what about in China? Do you think that anybody outside of the Imperial examination system was allowed to do science? You don't think they tried to maintain a monopoly on who could do these things? What you're saying makes sense with modern conceptions of personal liberty and freedom of ideas. It doesn't make sense when you try to apply it to the past, and realize that most ancient societies were highly restrictive compared to the modern era.


I'm not quite comfortable with the standard you're using to judge the past, because it seems to have this judgmental air to it that seems to insinuate that every group doing science prior to the modern era were just a bunch of hacks slowing down progress.
You claim the Church should be given credit for funding science. I say credit is only deserving if they were the reason science exists.

I give credit to scientists. But I can't give the Church any credit because we KNOW they hindered science intentionally. And now they even like to pretended they didn't do that, that we had to thank them for having Christian scientists. Such audacity.
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Old 2013-04-21, 09:07   Link #27825
Ridwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Religious institutions were the ones advancing science because no one else was allowed to.

Did the institutions advanced science? Yes. Were the institutions the reason scientific advancements were possible? NO. The plain fact is that any science not affiliated with the Church was crushed, burned, and not allowed to be published.
I'd say that was sort-of the case at some point in Europe. Frankly it was the only place where you got a very powerful clerical institution reigning over arguably the more illiterate, post-apocalyptic region of earth. It was the exception rather then the rule. They were the only literate bunches left post-Roman collapse, and after a millennia had passed naturally they got used to being the smartest kids around.
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Old 2013-04-21, 10:20   Link #27826
Ridwan
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Yes, yes, YES !!
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Old 2013-04-21, 10:35   Link #27827
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
I demand that the German Ministry of Education make Runic German an elective subject.
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Old 2013-04-21, 12:19   Link #27828
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
I am actually rather surprised. You are saying you didn't have highschool education relating to old local languages before?

I am just used to the mainstream Asian countries all having old literature as a part of the curriculum as a matter of course. You are saying people in Turkey weren't taught old Turkish?
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Old 2013-04-21, 12:30   Link #27829
Anh_Minh
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We weren't taught Old French, I know that... Latin as an elective, though.
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Old 2013-04-21, 13:54   Link #27830
Ithekro
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We had Spanish or French as foreign language electives. English was a four year course in high school. Mostly about literature and how to write properly by that point rather than how to speak it. The closest we'd get to Old English was Shakespeare.

And because the PC was on the rise in the 1990s, we mostly stopped writing in English and started typing in English. I stopped writing in cursive when I got to High School because most teachers wanted our essays on computer.
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Old 2013-04-21, 15:32   Link #27831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post

And because the PC was on the rise in the 1990s, we mostly stopped writing in English and started typing in English. I stopped writing in cursive when I got to High School because most teachers wanted our essays on computer.
my English teacher threaten to give a F if i turn anything in using cursive
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Old 2013-04-21, 16:01   Link #27832
SaintessHeart
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Well we were taught cursive in Primary school as penmanship (which I continuously score zero because I can't follow such patterns without someone guiding my hand), and when I reached high school, the teachers went on a "strike" and refuse to mark any essays in "unintelligible writing".

Victims were mostly cursive writers, and some parents complained that it is "cursive" and thus is "normal"; the English Department's Literature teachers hit back with "Arabic is not the lingua franca". Even the school inspectors who came down was rolling over in laughter amongst themselves until a deal was reached - the students will be given the option to submit their work in typeouts, but no negotiation will be reached on their behalf if the Cambridge Assessment Board refuses to mark their papers during their 'A's.

Regardless, one of my GP teachers made a fantastic statement,

Quote:
It is not about the way the words are written, it is about how the entire essay is designed. It is no different from designing a machine on a blueprint - it must be simple to read, simple to understand, but detail the most complex thoughts in the clearest form. Handwriting is one of the keys of design - it is the method of presentation; your only way of bringing an idea across to others.

So why write cursive when you can write caveman?
P.S I was one of those victims for constantly breaking the 5th Rule in Orwell's 6 rules of writing - from then on I swore off essays debating about advancement in technology or about computers; cavemen can't read. [/sarcasm]
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-04-21, 18:12   Link #27833
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
So why write cursive when you can write caveman?
Because I can write about 3x faster in cursive than in standard print?
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Old 2013-04-21, 18:24   Link #27834
Ithekro
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But can someone else read it? That was what our teachers were on about when the IBM PC started to take over the Apple II series in the schools prior to the Internet.
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Old 2013-04-21, 18:41   Link #27835
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Because I can write about 3x faster in cursive than in standard print?
But how legible?

Yea, the general practice of writing cursive is going away -- but -- good penmanship still needs to be taught.
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Old 2013-04-21, 18:43   Link #27836
Ithekro
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Aside from signing my name, I don't think I've written in cursive since high school. I rarely have to write outside of shorthand anymore since most things are on computer.
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Old 2013-04-21, 18:44   Link #27837
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
But how legible?
No teacher ever had problems reading it. Now, don't get me wrong, it was ugly as hell, but it was completely legible.
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Old 2013-04-21, 19:03   Link #27838
flying ^
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Watchout! Predominantly-liberal, Northeast, Media Establishment (a.k.a. 'Mainstream' national press)

Look who's set to even the tone in the OP/ED page and bring refreshing, XXI century ideas at the national level ~





In a move that could radically change the meaning of mainstream media, the Koch brothers, the libertarian leaning billionaires and industrial giants are contemplating purchasing the Tribune Company newspapers. A purchase of this magnitude by the biggest financiers of libertarian causes would forever change the meme of mainstream media bias.

The brothers have made it no secret that they intend to use their considerable wealth to influence politics. They have a 10-year strategy that includes funding grassroots activists, politicians, think tanks, super PACS and just about anything else that can be used to promote and further their political ideology of free market enterprise and smaller government. The strategy would be greatly enhanced by the purchase of this bloc of regional newspapers.

Charles and David Koch have a combined net worth north of $60 billion. Their multinational company, Koch Industries is one of the largest privately held companies in America with revenues in excess of $100 billion. Koch Industries is literally involved in every imaginable sector in the economy, including manufacturing, finance, commodities trading, ranching, energy, petroleum, chemicals, defense, and pulp and paper.

Up until know the brothers have been content with furthering their business and political goals through the funding of grassroots organizations and politicians such as Governor Scott Walker (R-Wisc.), former presidential candidate Mitt Romney, Senate-candidate Richard Mourdock R-Ind.), Representative Mike Pompeo (R-Kan.) and Tea Party Congresswoman Michelle Bachman (R-Minn.), while providing support for the libertarian leaning research papers produced by their supported organizations. Even President Obama received a $10,000 campaign contribution from Koch Industries. However a purchase of The Tribune Company newspapers would be a game changer.

Some of the most influential libertarian and conservative policy institutes and political action committees in America have been the beneficiaries of millions of Koch brother contributions, including the Cato Institute, the Heritage Foundation, and Americans for Prosperity, FreedomWorks, the Reason Foundation, the Mercatus Center, the American Enterprise Institute, Americans for Prosperity Foundation, and A.L.E.C, the American Legislative Exchange Council.

They have used their contributions to these organizations as well as contributing to a number of elected officials to further their goal of privatizing social security and public education, eliminating labor unions and drastically reducing environmental protection regulations. The brothers do not believe in climate change and vigorously oppose any legislation designed to address global warming e.g. greenhouse effects. Owning a set of online and print newspapers would certainly facilitate a shift towards favorable coverage of these positions in some of the mainstream media.

The grassroots and political legs of the 10-year strategy have been fairly successful. The brothers vehemently deny contributing to any Tea Party, but the organizations they have created and funded, Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks, are front and center in the Tea Party movement. It would take quite a stretch of imagination to believe that these organizations do not have the direct blessing of the powerful brothers. Purchasing some mainstream media is the final piece of the puzzle and will forever kill the meme of mainstream media bias.

The Tribune Company newspapers include the Los Angeles Times, the Chicago Tribune, the Orlando Sentinel, the Hartford Courant and the Baltimore Sun. A purchase of these regional newspapers, as well as the Spanish-language daily Hoy, would ensure that the conservative and libertarian ideology of the brothers was widely and strategically disseminated. The LA Times is the fourth-largest newspaper in the country and the Chicago Tribune is the ninth. The Orlando Sentinel and the Sun Sentinel, which won a Pulitzer Award this year, are two of the largest papers in the swing state of Florida. A purchase of these papers would provide a medium for a daily dosage of conservative and libertarian based analysis and opinion.

If the brothers took a heavy hand with the editorial boards of the papers, then coupled with papers like the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Times, the purchase could begin to level the playing field for conservatives and libertarians. In fact, a purchase of this magnitude could do for print and online newspapers what Fox News Channel did for cable news: provide an alternate to the perceived bias of mainstream media for conservatives and right-leaning libertarians.
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Old 2013-04-21, 19:23   Link #27839
Seitsuki
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Fox News? Alternative to bias?

Oh, that is riiiich.
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Old 2013-04-21, 20:09   Link #27840
Flying Dagger
大巧不工
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Well we were taught cursive in Primary school as penmanship (which I continuously score zero because I can't follow such patterns without someone guiding my hand), and when I reached high school, the teachers went on a "strike" and refuse to mark any essays in "unintelligible writing".

Victims were mostly cursive writers, and some parents complained that it is "cursive" and thus is "normal"; the English Department's Literature teachers hit back with "Arabic is not the lingua franca". Even the school inspectors who came down was rolling over in laughter amongst themselves until a deal was reached - the students will be given the option to submit their work in typeouts, but no negotiation will be reached on their behalf if the Cambridge Assessment Board refuses to mark their papers during their 'A's.

Regardless, one of my GP teachers made a fantastic statement,



P.S I was one of those victims for constantly breaking the 5th Rule in Orwell's 6 rules of writing - from then on I swore off essays debating about advancement in technology or about computers; cavemen can't read. [/sarcasm]

I can write a lot faster in cursive than print, but the problem is that I have a lot of trouble reading my own writing. This has been a personal dilemma in my university days when I have to take notes quickly, while being able to understand wtf I wrote in class effectively (I am bad at digesting a new concept+writing at the same time).

So its a trade off of:
Being able to write 20% faster vs spending 25% more time every time I go through my notes.

Over time the reading part won out.

I would love to be a student in today's classroom, you can probably just attach a keyboard to your smartphone and type, then take pictures of the blackboard if necessary (or simply rely on pictures of the blackboard). Not having to take notes imo makes learning during class a lot more efficient as you have a lot more time to follow/catch up to any new concepts thrown at you.

Some professors follow their lecture notes well, but most of the time they still diverge as those lecture notes are often outdated.

Hell, I would love HD recording of all lectures... it will make reviewing so much easier. Everyone have had those morning in which they are still half asleep and just cannot understand what is going on, yes?
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