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Old 2013-04-22, 01:48   Link #1021
Triple_R
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I'm honestly a bit surprised at how some people on this thread seem to be suggesting that Ledo should have just been ordered to "kill them all" (the 'them' being the pirates).


There's a few issues at play here that makes that a highly unwise order to give:

1. First and foremost, if you're a member of Gargantia's fleet, you definitely want to determine if this god from outer space, and the boy piloting it, are capable of fighting back but with some measure of restraint. Determining that is essential. If they are not capable of fighting back with some measure of restraint, then they are a potentially massive threat and no trustworthy ally. This is the difference between Superman and The Plultonian. That's a rather large and important difference.

2. You run the risk of seeming overly blood-thirsty to non-pirates. You erode trust. Other fleets might start to think that the Gargantia has world domination designs, or something like that, or something even crazier. It's not hard for me to see how this could spiral into true tragedy.

3. Avoiding escalation is a legitimate concern. I think that Bellows' logic is fine there, at least up to a point. You deal with enemies with a certain amount of restraint, and occasional skirmishes remain skirmishes. Remove that restraint, and things likely escalate into all-out war.

4. As it pertains to Ledo, there is particular value in Bellows' logic in that he can very safely apply it. Ledo and Chamber are so far above the pirates that they can afford to effectively fight back against them with restraint.


On the whole, I enjoyed this third episode. The Pirate Queen (and her lackeys) were just competent/powerful enough to make things interesting. It was obvious that Ledo would defeat them, but for a moment there, I honestly was thinking that named character death on the protagonist side was possible.

I liked the dialogue, character development, and action scenes in this episode. For me, it wasn't significantly weaker than the 2nd episode. And I liked how it ended with Ledo learning to say "Thank You" in the language of his new allies/friends.


That being said, I am worried about diminishing returns here. Ledo vs. Pirates isn't likely to be interesting for much longer. I hope that something eventually arises that can actually constitute a credible direct challenge to Ledo and his mecha.

A relatively lighthearted episode or two between now and then would be fine, though.
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Old 2013-04-22, 02:23   Link #1022
zero7090
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I will just say this. What the heck was Bellow people firing at the pirates in ep 2? BB gun? Water gun?

She said she want to teach the pirates that they have to risk their life to rob her. Then wth wrong with Ledo eliminate them? Is his killing any different than when Bellow people kill pirate with gun?
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Old 2013-04-22, 02:35   Link #1023
kuroishinigami
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Ledo didn't even give them the chance to retreat though. It's not as if he shot 1 enemy(or several) and then threatening them before annihilating all of them if the warning is disregarded. No, he just fly above, and bam, vaporize them all(save a few survivor although how the hell that pirate survive is still a big mystery) without warning whatsoever.
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Old 2013-04-22, 02:46   Link #1024
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Episode 3 was a little bit of a letdown for me. Personally, I think they took their "non-violence" stance a little too far (although there were a few legitimate points regarding escalation prevention). But most importantly, when someone shoots at you, you shoot back.

I don't understand why Gargantia would be willing to risk their own people, rather than wiping out the pirates before any casualties occur on their end (which clearly did, as several of their ships were out of commission by the end of the fight).
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Old 2013-04-22, 03:23   Link #1025
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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My main question regarding this episode is this: if the expected result is the same (driving out the pirates with Chamber’s help) then why in layers of hell did the Gargantian leaders not ordering Ledo & Chamber to just go attacking the enemy and disable all their weapons ASAP and scare those pirates enough to pull back? Two or three pirates can get killed in the process which doesn’t make it excessive, just like how the Gargantians want. All those properties (and lives?) lost on Gargantia’s side during the battle are really really unnecessary and can be easily avoided with very minimal casualties. *sigh* IMO what we get in this episode is such a stupid strategy by those Gargantian leaders -_-
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Old 2013-04-22, 03:33   Link #1026
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Well, he did, but then the submarine and the lobster happened. It doesn't matter whether the leader makes the call or not, the result remains the same
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Old 2013-04-22, 03:34   Link #1027
Helius
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Originally Posted by taofd View Post
Episode 3 was a little bit of a letdown for me. Personally, I think they took their "non-violence" stance a little too far (although there were a few legitimate points regarding escalation prevention). But most importantly, when someone shoots at you, you shoot back.

I don't understand why Gargantia would be willing to risk their own people, rather than wiping out the pirates before any casualties occur on their end (which clearly did, as several of their ships were out of commission by the end of the fight).
I thought people would've realised by now that anime works on a higher moral plane than what's really the case in real life and in this instance all lives are to be respected and treasured.

It's a kid's show (as in 6-18) after all. Whether or not it's watched by kids is less relevant than the message it conveys. You see the Galactic Alliance being driven close to extinction and out of that desparation those humans seemingly forgo compassion and the moral values concerning taking another life - Ledo: "'Thank you'... what a peculiar phrase." This is in constrast to the liberal, care-free lives the Gargantians lead (with the occasional pirate incursions) hence their higher, or as some would prefer, naive, sense of morality. As is the case with many anime shows, it presents an idealistic worldview which people i.e. youngsters are expected to strive for.

So just bear this in mind, it's prime time anime.
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Old 2013-04-22, 03:36   Link #1028
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Amy's first words set the tone for this episode, and my overall disappointment in it. So sick of the passive 'moral high ground' bs I see in a lot of anime. Was sick of it 25 years ago, and I'm sick of it now...

And ontop of that, in the beginning of the episode where they are discussing what to do with him, they act like they have some kind of power to resist him if they had to 'deal with him'. Hello, Did you not see what he did to the Pirates? You people are morons. You can't decide to hand him over to the pirates, or dump him overboard and take his mecha. -facepalms-

At least the second half of the episode went okay. Wonder how many of the good guys were killed in that battle though, and if it was worth the price for not letting Ledo do what he could do...
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Old 2013-04-22, 04:01   Link #1029
Giriath
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'm honestly a bit surprised at how some people on this thread seem to be suggesting that Ledo should have just been ordered to "kill them all" (the 'them' being the pirates).....
This is a good analysis that I can agree with. Most important is that if the Gargantian fleet makes overt use of Ledo and Chamber's power (even non-lethal), they announce to the world that they are an unopposed military superpower. Regardless of their actual and stated intentions, this will significantly change the world order and make everyone perpetually afraid of them; some will beg them to police, some will band together to oppose them and some will shy away from them.

The only thing to really rub me wrong this episode was how the commanders of the Gargantian fleet kept acting like they had the power to dispose of Ledo, or rob him of his mecha. Even Ridget acted like this was an option, even though she had already surmised Ledo as capable of annihilating their fleet. In that scene they should have been shocked at his display of power, and afraid and confused as to how deal with him, which would segue well into Bellow's private conversation with him, and her forcing their hand to negotiate with him in order to secure his allegiance, against the pirates.

On another note, I'm starting to recognize some character archetypes that will drive the plot. The fleet commanders' reluctance to consider and acknowledge things incompatible with their established world-view and traditions will probably be the main driving point of tragedy in the show. Two commanders especially (the balding, blue/violet clad man, and the heavy-set, blond, gold/red clad man) appear very prideful, set in their traditions and eager to maintain their position of power. I predict they will betray the fleet and bring about considerable tragedy.
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Old 2013-04-22, 04:16   Link #1030
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Well, he did, but then the submarine and the lobster happened. It doesn't matter whether the leader makes the call or not, the result remains the same
Timing is of essence. If Ledo was permitted to use Chamber’s lasers and destroy all the pirate’s weapons as quickly as he can as well as flashily demonstrate its power, I doubt the submarines and the pirate queen in the Lobster will have the guts to sortie after seeing all that. Well, due to her character, the pirate-queen may still sortie but then Chamber will be able to concentrate on her alone and just dispatched the Lobster in a matter of seconds.

And the result is not the same. If Gargantian leaders did what I said in my previous post, they’ll have flawless victory without massacring the pirates. What happened in the actual anime is Gargantian’s victory but with unnecessary loss due to idiocy imo.

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It's a kid's show (as in 6-18) after all. Whether or not it's watched by kids is less relevant than the message it conveys.
Unpractical strategy has got nothing to do with a kid’s show. I’ve seen better and smarter battle strategy done by Doraemon and friends in some of their movies compared to what Gargantians did in this episode. In case you don’t know, Doraemon is a major “kiddy show”.

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Most important is that if the Gargantian fleet makes overt use of Ledo and Chamber's power (even non-lethal), they announce to the world that they are an unopposed military superpower. Regardless of their actual and stated intentions, this will significantly change the world order and make everyone perpetually afraid of them; some will beg them to police, some will band together to oppose them and some will shy away from them.
And guess what we get this episode? Pirates still being pushed back by Chamber's awesome power .
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Old 2013-04-22, 04:16   Link #1031
Helius
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The only thing to really rub me wrong this episode was how the commanders of the Gargantian fleet kept acting like they had the power to dispose of Ledo, or rob him of his mecha. Even Ridget acted like this was an option, even though she had already surmised Ledo as capable of annihilating their fleet. In that scene they should have been shocked at his display of power, and afraid and confused as to how deal with him, which would segue well into Bellow's private conversation with him, and her forcing their hand to negotiate with him in order to secure his allegiance, against the pirates.
I thought their attitude was quite appropriate in their position.

Just consider, suppose you have an alien fleet arriving at Earth. Would the world governments tremble in fear or would they want to maintain the status quo and work sensibly on how to deal with this potential threat by keeping a cool head and assess just what they're capable and not capable of achieving with what they have at their disposal?

Just because something foreign to you has displayed a God-like power doesn't mean you would lose all perceptions of reality and revolve your actions around appeasing that "God".
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Old 2013-04-22, 04:54   Link #1032
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I will just say this. What the heck was Bellow people firing at the pirates in ep 2? BB gun? Water gun?

She said she want to teach the pirates that they have to risk their life to rob her. Then wth wrong with Ledo eliminate them? Is his killing any different than when Bellow people kill pirate with gun?
Conventional warfare. It escalates when you use nukes.

On the writing of the logic of war is just another form of negotiation it reminded me of how Japan wanted to negotiate with the US with war, particularly their doctrine of decisive battle. It was never the intention of the Japanese empire to destroy the US but to gain glory, recognition and expansion. Like the Russo-Japanese war.

But Japan made one big mistake. Japan forgot to restraint themselves causing atrocities. With that generation's militarization and propaganda they forgot even the ancient samurai they idolize show mercy to those that surrender. They crossed the line a lot of times. It would not end in a negotiated peace as they planned but the US and allies won't take anything else than unconditional surrender.

It is no longer just business as it is personal.

Last edited by ReddyRedWolf; 2013-04-22 at 05:11.
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Old 2013-04-22, 05:06   Link #1033
Giriath
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Just consider, suppose you have an alien fleet arriving at Earth. Would the world governments tremble in fear or would they want to maintain the status quo and work sensibly on how to deal with this potential threat by keeping a cool head and assess just what they're capable and not capable of achieving with what they have at their disposal?

Just because something foreign to you has displayed a God-like power doesn't mean you would lose all perceptions of reality and revolve your actions around appeasing that "God".
I agree, but in the first scene where the Bellows tells them what happened and they discuss what to do, they don't acknowledge the fact that Ledo is a threat. Ridget does this only later when Bellows forces them to negotiate with Ledo, and when she mentions it, the others are surprised, as if they hadn't even considered that Ledo could refuse their decision, and in fact might even choose to oppose them.

In that first scene they act as if Ledo's power, which they now have irrefutable evidence of, has no effect whatsoever on their ability to decide what do with him. Bellows, however, acknowledges his power and determines it could make him a threat, so acting like the only rational individual, she decides to inquire about his motives: what does he want, and how does this affect them?

Upon acquiring these motives, she (apparently lacking the xenophobia the commanders exhibit) judges Ledo and the fleet compatible and capable of coexistence with mutual benefits. She then manages to overcome the commanders' incompetence by forcing their hand, and in so doing at least delays the tragedy I suspect they will eventually bring about anyway.

Bellows was the most important hero of this episode, and I'm positive the commanders will manage to kill her off at some point in the future.

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And guess what we get this episode? Pirates still being pushed back by Chamber's awesome power .
Yep, but at least he was conservative. He probably could have disabled the entire pirate fleet within a minute if he used his weaponry, which would have been far more newsworthy than a flying mecha with a lot of engine power, engaging in melee combat.
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Old 2013-04-22, 06:01   Link #1034
jeroz
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I always see the first segment as distraction anyway. The submarines and the lobster are more of a real deal.
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Old 2013-04-22, 06:01   Link #1035
mikeomni
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Ledo didn't even give them the chance to retreat though. It's not as if he shot 1 enemy(or several) and then threatening them before annihilating all of them if the warning is disregarded. No, he just fly above, and bam, vaporize them all(save a few survivor although how the hell that pirate survive is still a big mystery) without warning whatsoever.
In episode 2, one fell in the water as his ship exploded. He got lucky.
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Old 2013-04-22, 06:03   Link #1036
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Yep, but at least he was conservative. He probably could have disabled the entire pirate fleet within a minute if he used his weaponry, which would have been far more newsworthy than a flying mecha with a lot of engine power, engaging in melee combat.
A Yunboro that is able to fly, un-penetrable armor (so far), have the firepower to disable dozens of ships like it was nothing and the aforementioned (beyond) powerful engine already made Chamber more than newsworthy. Being able to “disable the entire pirate fleet within a minute” will only adds the intensity of the news. In short, Ledo & Chamber already drew attention whether or not they’re being “conservative”. Hiding Chamber’s true powers further isn’t worth the lost suffered by Gargantia imo.
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Old 2013-04-22, 06:15   Link #1037
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My main question regarding this episode is this: if the expected result is the same (driving out the pirates with Chamber’s help) then why in layers of hell did the Gargantian leaders not ordering Ledo & Chamber to just go attacking the enemy and disable all their weapons ASAP and scare those pirates enough to pull back? Two or three pirates can get killed in the process which doesn’t make it excessive, just like how the Gargantians want. All those properties (and lives?) lost on Gargantia’s side during the battle are really really unnecessary and can be easily avoided with very minimal casualties. *sigh* IMO what we get in this episode is such a stupid strategy by those Gargantian leaders -_-
Yes, it is militarily silly but it is still reasonable in a roundabout way. It's like keeping a pet alligator, you're not entirely sure what it would do and it's probably going to bite off your limbs if you kicked at it. Thinking about it some more, the ROE was also a test on how faithfully Ledo would adhere to their request. They established that Ledo has the capability to destroy them. All that is limiting him is his word. If they welcome him to Gargantia they needed assurances that he wasn't prone to breaking his word.
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Old 2013-04-22, 06:19   Link #1038
Gundamx
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Hmmm just watched third episode...

It look like they don't want him to killed them so they don't come back for blood
since if you killed some brother his brother will try to kill you even though he know he can't win >>> suicide attack

but if you just scare them to run than they will run away and don't attack you back since it's not worth it
(They didn't lose anyone so no need for unreasonable revenge + they will lose more equipments/ supplies if they attack them again)
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Old 2013-04-22, 06:20   Link #1039
Eclipze
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A Yunboro that is able to fly, un-penetrable armor (so far), have the firepower to disable dozens of ships like it was nothing and the aforementioned (beyond) powerful engine already made Chamber more than newsworthy. Being able to “disable the entire pirate fleet within a minute” will only adds the intensity of the news. In short, Ledo & Chamber already drew attention whether or not they’re being “conservative”. Hiding Chamber’s true powers further isn’t worth the lost suffered by Gargantia imo.
People fail to see that though. The importance of this particular issue was never really that he killed those pirates, it was that OTHER PEOPLE (outside Gargantia) know about Chamber now.

Yea sure, as though the "military" factions of their own would just cower in fear of Gargantia. No, they will very likely want a piece of Chamber's ass (tech) for themselves.
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Old 2013-04-22, 06:25   Link #1040
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I thought their attitude was quite appropriate in their position.

Just consider, suppose you have an alien fleet arriving at Earth. Would the world governments tremble in fear or would they want to maintain the status quo and work sensibly on how to deal with this potential threat by keeping a cool head and assess just what they're capable and not capable of achieving with what they have at their disposal?

Just because something foreign to you has displayed a God-like power doesn't mean you would lose all perceptions of reality and revolve your actions around appeasing that "God".
Well the commanders here aren't thinking rationally either.

They've been shown to only ever considering two things:
-Cool mecha, let's rob him! ie. blond guy
-You don't exist, go away! The captain with his refusal to communicate directly, when Ledo first communicated the first thing he asked for was to speak with the one in charge. The officers seem to take insult at having to face Ledo.
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