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Old 2013-04-23, 11:10   Link #41
Chiibi
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I for one, liked Angel Beat's ending. ._.

I didn't like the climax with Yuri confronting who was behind the....whatever it was. I forget.

But I thought everything from the graduation ceremony and onwards was very well-done and I cried not just because it was sad but touching in a hopeful sort of way.

It's easy for an anime to make you cry because you are sad.
When an anime can make you cry because you are happy, I feel that's the mark of something pretty damn amazing.
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Old 2013-04-23, 11:24   Link #42
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Angel Beats!' writing on the ending leaves inconsistencies in the story but the conclusion itself up to the epilogue makes sense in the show's context.

Ending wise:
Air TV >= Angel Beats! > Clannad After Story. Kanon (2006) isn't listed here because the way it's structured could make any arc the ending.
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Old 2013-04-23, 13:42   Link #43
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I felt the conclusion for episode 10 of Angel Beats was way more coherent as an ending by any method-- 13 felt like the same thing but more forced. If it had ended there stuff would have been way more ambiguous, but the note would have been higher.

The problem with the ending ...

Spoiler for Angel Beats:
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Old 2013-04-23, 15:54   Link #44
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Spoiler for Angel Beats! ending:
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Old 2013-04-30, 11:55   Link #45
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Man, one thing I really have to credit Kyoani with is the character designs. Come to think about it, while the Toei designs were terribad, they really didn't have much to work with. For one thing, the Kyoani counterparts look far less anorexic.
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Old 2015-09-13, 03:43   Link #46
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Well, what a surprise. Angel Beats didn't actually need its problems fixed.
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Old 2015-09-13, 04:25   Link #47
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I think it's pretty clear that Key and Jun Maeda needs to take some writing lessons, or at the least when it comes to writing TV animes. Or just stick to writing VNs and not making original TV animess. They admitted they screwed up Angel Beats and unless I'm totally out of mind they are making the exact same mistakes in Charlotte without fixing the mistakes they admitted to 5 years ago. You make a mistake, that's fine it's human to make mistakes... but you don't go into a public interview admit that you screwed up XYZ and say you will fix them... then make the exact same mistake again. And this is not even getting to the whole formula of moe girls and silly school antics first half --> actual stuff happening in the 2nd half, which is getting frankly very tiresome, though I'll admit that's a subjective personal preference.

Also as a sidenote, I hope PA Works never teams up with Key again because outside from the outlier that is Glasslip (which is 100% PA works fault) Angel Beats and Charlotte are definitely their worst 2 series. Now that I think about it, it's probably a good thing Kyoani stopped teaming up with Key because I doubt even if they did it, Angel Beats and Charlotte would be salvageable. At this point I'll easily take Kyoani's mediocre in-house LN adaptations of their own source material than whatever Charlotte and Angel Beat's mess is.

At the very least, maybe it's time for Key to stop producing original anime, but revert to only adapting existing ones (like Rewrite) and most importantly to give it a proper episode treatment (none of this 1 cour crap because it's clearly not working...).
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Old 2015-09-13, 04:41   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Well, what a surprise. Angel Beats didn't actually need its problems fixed.
Of course not, it's not fixable to begin with. The concept is fundamentally flawed, and fixing it would require redoing the whole thing. If you're referring to any attempt by Charlotte, well, you can't really fix other things when you can't fix yourself. Angel Beats's failing was a complete failure to establish its premise or take advantage of it, and yes, I think my initial impression that it needed more time was wrong; it wouldn't have mattered anyways. I actually enjoyed Angel Beats but honestly it is what it is and doting over failed potential is a waste of time. And Charlotte, I can't really say, since I dropped it 1/3 in, but I don't care. But it seems to fall under the same failing as a lot of hyped shows go, a lot of hot air and absolutely no substance, and this is frankly not surprising. And honestly, I wouldn't even care to make the comparisons Pocari makes because I don't consider that show typical of Key, Pa Works, or w/e

It's like the Mega Man X7 in comparison to X6 I fear, and if you don't understand that, then that's probably for the better. But in short, a successor that only exists to make the former look better.

What is true is that people need to realize VNs are fundamentally enjoyed in a different way than anime and some stuff doesn't translate over. It's like if you made an anime of an RPG and you depict level grinding for several episodes. Why would anyone watch that?

And it's that kind of cynical approach that truly pisses me off. They've basically created 2 anime just off a name and a brand. Ideas? Thoughts? Development? Storytelling? Nah, fuck that. We got a big name; it's gotta be something, and let's just pick idols or bands or some dumb shit and pretend that's an excuse for a story and sell records and shit. You just end up with shit like Aldnoah where you are really just a vehicle to produce various names. Might as well just have Sawano copy and paste his Unicorn reject soundtracks, increase the pitch, add more voice samples, and have it play backwards. Then just stick it in to Charlotte as an OST whether or not it fits scenes or not.
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Old 2015-09-13, 05:00   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Of course not, it's not fixable to begin with. The concept is fundamentally flawed, and fixing it would require redoing to whole thing. If you're referring to any attempt by Charlotte, well, you can't really fix other things when you can't fix yourself. Angel Beats's failing was a complete failure to establish its premise or take advantage of it, and yes, I think my initial impression that it needed more time was wrong; it wouldn't have mattered anyways.
I think the answer is ... we don't know. Key's formula has always been to spend the first half of their animated series with lighthearted school comedy antics because the "serious stuff" happens in the 2nd half. Kanon, Clannad and Little Busters all had the luxury of at least 2 cours, meaning there were at least 12-13 episodes for that "serious stuff" to be fleshed out. With only 6 you are severely limited yourself.

Of course if you take the pessimistic approach and think Key/Jun Maeda/Naoki Hisaya or whoever are hacks and can't write proper stories, narratives, plots then yes it wouldn't matter in the first place how many episodes it gets.

Quote:
I actually enjoyed Angel Beats but honestly it is what it is and doting over failed potential is a waste of time. And Charlotte, I can't really say, since I dropped it 1/3 in, but I don't care. But it seems to fall under the same failing as a lot of hyped shows go, a lot of hot air and absolutely no substance, and this is frankly not surprising.
Pretty much it. SAO, Aldonoah Zero, Guilty Crown, Valverave and heck even stuff likes sequels like Psycho Pass 2 etc. Charlotte pretty much falls into this category.

Quote:
And honestly, I wouldn't even care to make the comparisons Pocari makes because I don't consider that show typical of Key, Pa Works, or w/e
I don't know what you mean by typical of Key, because Charlotte seems VERY key in formula albeit different in theme (it's not about romance for example), but I did mention, impliedly that Angel Beats/Charlotte are not typical of a PA Works show. Which is why I can't fault them too much other than the fact they sold out I guess? But hey studios need money so w/e. However something like Glasslip is 100% PA Works and it's absolutely all their fault.

Quote:
And it's that kind of cynical approach that truly pisses me off. They've basically created 2 anime just off a name and a brand. Ideas? Thoughts? Development? Storytelling? Nah, fuck that. We got a big name; it's gotta be something, and let's just pick idols or bands or some dumb shit and pretend that's an excuse for a story and sell records and shit. You just end up with shit like Aldnoah where you are really just a vehicle to produce various names. Might as well just have Sawano copy and paste his Unicorn reject soundtracks, increase the pitch, add more voice samples, and have it play backwards. Then just stick it in to Charlotte as an OST whether or not it fits scenes or not.
To be fair every entertainment medium does that to an extent. But if you're talking strictly in terms of anime, then yeh it annoys me too. Been a while since I liked the last anime with Gen Urobuchi's name on it because the last 2 years worth have been either garbage or mediocre. Psycho Pass movie included... (oh boy that was a disappointment even taking into account how terrible season 2 of the TV was...). But hey you want to hype your show and guarantee viewership and sales? Just smack Gen's name on it with Sawano/Kajiara.
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Old 2015-09-13, 05:18   Link #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
I think the answer is ... we don't know. Key's formula has always been to spend the first half of their animated series with lighthearted school comedy antics because the "serious stuff" happens in the 2nd half. Kanon, Clannad and Little Busters all had the luxury of at least 2 cours, meaning there were at least 12-13 episodes for that "serious stuff" to be fleshed out. With only 6 you are severely limited yourself.
Quote:
I don't know what you mean by typical of Key, because Charlotte seems VERY key in formula albeit different in theme (it's not about romance for example), but I did mention, impliedly that Angel Beats/Charlotte are not typical of a PA Works show. Which is why I can't fault them too much other than the fact they sold out I guess? But hey studios need money so w/e. However something like Glasslip is 100% PA Works and it's absolutely all their fault.
This, I think, is why I fundamentally disagree with most people on the matter, and yes, forgive me since I did give up on Charlotte, but it's not like Maeda is some kind of genius that's gonna make a comback or something lol.

The point that is that sure, all of the anime thus far does go with the dumb shit ---> melodrama ---> heart moment ---> random conclusion to some degree. Except this is missing the forest for the trees, and why Angel Beats (and probably Charlotte) fails

It wasn't just "hey people are acted retarded hurrr" for dozens of episodes There is usually an undercurrent of foreshadowing of what's really going on underneath during these moments. They don't just toss it out for the fuck of it. For example, in AIR, you are quickly introduced to the idea of the supernatural, and it's not like the show was subtle that something overly dramatic was happening. Kanon and Little Busters put forth that the world was not what it seemed early on too. The former actaully has a lot of foreshadowing all over the place. Clannad... well honestly I don't know what the fuck they were doing with it, but even that opened with a dramatically (ineffective) arc too.

And so that's the problem with Angel Beats. It takes the surface level of humor and antics but it's not really for a purpose. The reveals are all pretty asinine and don't even amount to anything anyways. Think about how many plot twists it had that basically shat on any and all attempts to figure out what was going on. And then the ending to shit on it again. That reminds me of another anime that did this-- Another! Stuff happens, and it's not even interesting. So in the end you only had the gags themselves, which I actually found amusing enough, but that's it.

Length does nothing to solve any of this.

Quote:
Of course if you take the pessimistic approach and think Key/Jun Maeda/Naoki Hisaya or whoever are hacks and can't write proper stories, narratives, plots then yes it wouldn't matter in the first place how many episodes it gets.
That's true, but I never ran on that premise. Sure a good writer can make more happen, but you're sort of fucked when the idea itself is so shallow. It's just like how you can't blame Okada for Black Rock Shooter. Nobody could have salvaged it.


Quote:
Pretty much it. SAO, Aldonoah Zero, Guilty Crown, Valverave and heck even stuff likes sequels like Psycho Pass 2 etc. Charlotte pretty much falls into this category.
Well, I wouldn't really dump SAO into this shitcan, but whatever, I guess, close enough.



Quote:
To be fair every entertainment medium does that to an extent. But if you're talking strictly in terms of anime, then yeh it annoys me too. Been a while since I liked the last anime with Gen Urobuchi's name on it because the last 2 years worth have been either garbage or mediocre. Psycho Pass movie included... (oh boy that was a disappointment even taking into account how terrible season 2 of the TV was...). But hey you want to hype your show and guarantee viewership and sales? Just smack Gen's name on it with Sawano/Kajiara.
Yea, it's almost like, wait, just because it has this name means, it'll be a show? Doesn't work like that.
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Old 2015-09-13, 05:29   Link #51
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
That's true, but I never ran on that premise. Sure a good writer can make more happen, but you're sort of fucked when the idea itself is so shallow. It's just like how you can't blame Okada for Black Rock Shooter. Nobody could have salvaged it.
That is true, but what happens if the writer was responsible for the idea itself in the first place?

Quote:
Well, I wouldn't really dump SAO into this shitcan, but whatever, I guess, close enough.
SAO Season 2 I wouldn't since it actually was signficantly better (at least the second half imo), but SAO Season 1, in particular 2nd half was some of the most offensive, sexist series I have seen. The plot was effectively "let's rescue my online waifu who's gone from badass to damsell in distress from this psychopath who I have an arranged marriage with". No... just no.
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Old 2015-09-13, 05:38   Link #52
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Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
That is true, but what happens if the writer was responsible for the idea itself in the first place?
Then it would be just be a writer wankfest and people either need fast reactions to dodge the incoming blast or an umbrella to block. like Monogatari

But in reality, I don't think that's usually the case. Funny you bring up Hisaya previously. I think Sola seems like more at home as a "PA Works + Key" work than the two that actually exist, even though neither was involved. Must be those sharp chins.
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Old 2015-09-13, 05:44   Link #53
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Then it would be just be a writer wankfest and people either need fast reactions to dodge the incoming blast or an umbrella to block. like Monogatari
I don't remember any umbrellas in monogatari...

Last umbrellas I remember is in the Hibike Euphonium OP which I lold at

Quote:
But in reality, I don't think that's usually the case. Funny you bring up Hisaya previously. I think Sola seems like more at home as a "PA Works + Key" work than the two that actually exist, even though neither was involved. Must be those sharp chins.
That's an interesting comparison. Now that I think about it Sola did have a "PAW" like atmosphere... and it probably succeeded in what it tried it to do where RDG and Glasslip failed with all that supernatural stuff. So in essence the prototype series succeeded whilst its "successors" failed I guess?

As for pointy chins they migrated to ufotable in FSN. Lol Rin's chin.
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Old 2015-09-13, 06:35   Link #54
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Of course if you take the pessimistic approach and think Key/Jun Maeda/Naoki Hisaya or whoever are hacks and can't write proper stories, narratives, plots then yes it wouldn't matter in the first place how many episodes it gets.
The important thing that I've been peddling elsewhere is that we are forgetting AIR, Kanon, CLANNAD were shows that had other people adapt an existing story, mainly Ishihara Tatsuya and Shimo Fumihiko. So whatever worked in the VNs their teams have painstakingly transformed that into something that works for anime. Obviously the originals themselves were strong enough, since even Toei's Kanon adaptation was to my taste very strong.

In fact, I think the Toei version tops KyoAni's. There were too many obnoxious meme-worthy KyoAni moments in their adaptation for me to like it.

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It wasn't just "hey people are acted retarded hurrr" for dozens of episodes There is usually an undercurrent of foreshadowing of what's really going on underneath during these moments. They don't just toss it out for the fuck of it. For example, in AIR, you are quickly introduced to the idea of the supernatural, and it's not like the show was subtle that something overly dramatic was happening. Kanon and Little Busters put forth that the world was not what it seemed early on too. The former actaully has a lot of foreshadowing all over the place. Clannad... well honestly I don't know what the fuck they were doing with it, but even that opened with a dramatically (ineffective) arc too.
The supernatural + effective foreshadowing, exactly! That's what makes these series work and why I love them. CLANNAD I feel is a very good show for other reasons.

So you think Little Busters has that quality to it too? Better put it on my to-watch list, couldn't get past the gags the first time.
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Old 2015-09-13, 07:51   Link #55
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Toei? Seriously? The adaptation with long munted faces?
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Old 2015-09-13, 07:54   Link #56
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The supernatural + effective foreshadowing, exactly! That's what makes these series work and why I love them. CLANNAD I feel is a very good show for other reasons.

So you think Little Busters has that quality to it too? Better put it on my to-watch list, couldn't get past the gags the first time.
IMHO the first season of Little Busters is pretty much a miss. There are some good episodes but most of the show is quite badly paced and particularly the first couple of arcs hardly feel like they are trying to hide the fact that it's a VN that resets at the end of each girls arc. In hindsight I can see why the show feels as it does during the first season but I still feel like KyoAni had a better handle on that translation during the first season of Clannad than JC Staff managed there.

Luckly all that's a moot point when Refrain walked in. That second season was excellently executed and it kept me mostly guessing at what the hell was going on right till the end. But most importantly it actually took the time to explain what the hell was going on unlike what KyoAni did for Clannad. It's really not an easy story to translate to the small screen since it uses so well the reset mechanic inherent to Visual Novels but I think they managed to nail the ending even if the beginning didn't really hint at what was happening enough until the latter end of the season. If they had managed to slip in some extra foreshadowing to the first two arcs of the first season it would probably get top marks.

It doesn't help that the Komari arc hits so damn hard with the melodrama at times that it stops being endearing and starts being just laughable. That was mostly what made me stall the show for a while. Also, with all due respect to the voice acting by Horie Yui, I don't think I can hear the word Narcolepsy again without punching something. The word is so incredibly overused that it really becomes grating. I also feel that Riki's voice didn't really start to work into way latter in the series and I still feel like casting Horie Yui-san wasn't the best of choices (despite the fact that I'm a massive fan of her work most of the time).

So yeah, the Little Busters anime won't factor into my top 10 list anytime soon because it's still JC Staff with their muted colours and mostly "meh" presentation but it's still a much more solid effort than it looked like it would turn out to be at first glance. I would say that it's a solid watch for those who liked Maeda's stories before if you can trudge through a weak opening act.
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Old 2015-09-13, 07:55   Link #57
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Toei? Seriously? The adaptation with long munted faces?
Toei's art adaptation was actually closer to the original VN's art. Which is probably another reason why I liked it more. The sorta puni-puni design works better for the main pairing, it looks much cuter.
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Old 2015-09-13, 07:56   Link #58
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Toei? Seriously? The adaptation with long munted faces?
I'd like to call it Jay Leno: The Anime. Except I think that wouldn't be fair to Jay Leno.
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Old 2015-09-13, 08:02   Link #59
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I usually didn't mind "bestseller teamups" before Charlotte happened. Some of the anime I watched is picked up due to some link with the people involved, and my assessment of the shows are based on the series, although some comparison is inevitable. That said, holy shit. Can't agree with you more Pocari on Maeda needing some more time taking seminars on how to write a story for anime.

Angel Beats was my first Key anime, at a time where I only know of Key as a VN circle that produces some potent tearjerkers, and I thought that Maeda did great in Angel Beats for someone who had to prune his story to fit a one-cour schedule... Well, until Charlotte came like a stone to shatter my expectations. And worse, it now made me cautious of any other "bestseller teamups" that are about to be made or are already making works after previous successes like Oreimo's Tsukasa Fushimi and Hiro Kanzaki in Eromanga-sensei, Shakugan no Shana's Yashichiro Takahashi and Noizi Itou in Kanae no Hoshi, Haganai's Yomi Hirasaka and Hentai Ouji's Kantoku in Imouto wa Sae Ireba Ii, along with a bunch of other similar works that might have just existed because they are treated like cows to milk anew.

I could go fall back on judging anime based on its own merits anytime. However, it doesn't change the fact that I'm totally disillusioned by Maeda's prowess as a writer.

Quote:
So you think Little Busters has that quality to it too? Better put it on my to-watch list, couldn't get past the gags the first time.
Well, it's better paced, and that's something neither Angel Beats nor Charlotte have.
Also, the character designs are an improvement over the antiquated ones in the VNs.

Take note however that

Quote:
IMHO the first season of Little Busters is pretty much a miss. There are some good episodes but most of the show is quite badly paced and particularly the first couple of arcs hardly feel like they are trying to hide the fact that it's a VN that resets at the end of each girls arc. In hindsight I can see why the show feels as it does during the first season but I still feel like KyoAni had a better handle on that translation during the first season of Clannad than JC Staff managed there.
although I think the first season fumbled a bit there because they were also doing Sakurasou no Pet na Kanojo and S3 of Bakuman at that time.
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Old 2015-09-13, 08:13   Link #60
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I recently caught up on Charlotte, and I have to say that I disagree with the level of criticism its receiving here on Anime Suki.

The show has some issues, to be sure, but I do think it's superior to Angel Beats. Charlotte's narrative focus feels tighter to me than AB's did, and I also find Charlotte's fictional setting more interesting than AB's.

Charlotte has also become an excellent page-turner anime for me, its 2nd half especially. Its 2nd half does a pretty good job of keeping me on the edge of my seat, and greatly anticipating just where the show will go next. For the most part, Charlotte hasn't been predictable to me. It goes certain places at certain times in ways that are often surprising to me, especially from the end of Episode 6 on.

However, some of this is due to how Charlotte appeals to the comic book fan in me. Its story has come to remind me a lot of X-Men comics that I read as a kid.
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