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Old 2013-04-24, 04:49   Link #221
Key Board
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Consider why he thought that. Consider the reputation anime has built for itself... subservient moeblobs, tentacle rape and general all-around male domination of female objects.

Yes, it's not all like that. Yes, some of anime and manga's bad rep comes from cultural differences between the West and Japan. Yes, there is a mild stigma against liking "cartoons" when you aren't a kid anymore.

But enough of it exists to give the medium a bad reputation, especially among women. The same goes for video games, but gaming isn't nearly as bad as anime. I freely admit to people that I'm a gamer, but I do not volunteer that I enjoy anime and manga. I know damn well that most people will assume the worst.

Short version: Kotaku guy has a point.
My point is that the kotaku guy missed the point of why this game is taking this direction.

As said with my Gurren Lagann comparison earlier, some games are MEANT to be over-exaggerated and ridiculous. If it makes some people uncomfortable then sorry.. some games are MEANT to be like that

remember Mortal Kombat? exactly

The point is that some things are clearly alienating to some, but you should not try to change them to make it more accessible to others

Again, I am not talking about video games as a whole. I'm talking about specific cases like this game where it is clear what the tone of the game is.

That's the reason why people give DmC flac. If a a series that is best known for tricky and sometimes unforgiving combat, you do not streamline it and make it more accessible to a larger group of people.
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Old 2013-04-24, 04:49   Link #222
cronnoponno
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I'm not saying most titles don't apply to a male fantasy, but on the topic of the dwarf in the Dragon's Crown game(a game I probably won't be playing) I don't really see how a muscled up dwarf= male power Fantasy, I don't know much about the game, but I think the dwarfs buff build is a stereotype of dwarves in general.

Most dwarfs I hear about are either immensely fat, or totally muscled up beyond comparison.
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Old 2013-04-24, 04:55   Link #223
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I'm okay with sexual objectification in video games as long as it's equally applied and fair.

Right now, it's not. Your female characters are sexually objectified while your male characters are designed around a male power fantasy. Both methods of objectification are serving the male interest ONLY.

You wanna make a sexy game? Sure. Put some sexy, big-breasted girls in, but put some delicious mancandy in there for the ladies. Why should the guys care? It's not like they're going to be looking at the male characters, anyway... unless there's something they aren't admitting, after all.
If the intent is to make something that is meant to be sexy for both genders than yes, I'm sure they would do it.

But not all games intend to do that. And they shouldn't be forced to.

I'm going to repeat what I proposed earlier in this thread.

I think gaming should be more like comic books. Rather then trying to bunch everything into one genre that hits the largest target audience, it should embrace specialization and branch off.
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Old 2013-04-25, 22:07   Link #224
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Short version: Kotaku guy has a point.
Whatever point Kotaku guy tried to make, if he even had any besides drumming up traffic, which is all Kotaku do these days, it is lost in the childish ad hominem attack that apparently constitutes game journalism in his sorry pos book. I mean, ffs, the guy is resorting to calling the sorceress a loli-bait, yes, the same one which he just complained was too sexists because of the oversized boobs, apparently is also guilty of being a loli.

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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
I highly agree with the Article... but I still don't think games that DO target a specific gender or culture should be completely eradicated, there's nothing wrong with a game like Senran Kagura, I guess the issue is that games that DO take themselves a bit more seriously and aren't advertised as being eye-candy do serve that eyecandy
I think this sums up how I feel about this whole fiasco:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/04/...cter-selection

also this

Last edited by kyp275; 2013-04-25 at 22:57.
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Old 2013-04-26, 03:17   Link #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Short version: Kotaku guy has a point.
Never liked their articles -- or most of Gawker -- as their credo and quality of their so-called "game journalism" opinions have become questionable at best.
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Old 2013-04-26, 05:32   Link #226
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The Penny Arcade strip sums up my feelings about 50%. Being not straight and not attracted to freakish breast-mutants, I find both images, the actual one and the imagined one to be repulsive and disgusting.

If the artists of Dragon's Crown intended to squick everyone out with his artwork, he did a good job of it. I don't even think it's sexual objectification--I think it's grotesque sexual objectification. Fan Disservice rather than fanservice.

But maybe I'm just projecting my own feelings. I find most "objectified" female characters with gag boobs and impossible proportions in gaming to be grotesque and disgusting. It's not solely about breast size or the appearance of her face or anything like that--it's the whole package taken together. I have no problem with female characters that happen to have large breasts. That exists in reality.

What doesn't is freakishly huge gag boobs and freakishly narrow waists that no internal organs would fit inside, and then freakishly wide hips and a freakishly huge and rounded ass. Humans aren't built that way. If you're a woman with big boobs, chances are the rest of you is pretty large as well, but you never see that in gaming.

For me it's less about being ticked off over objectification and more something akin to uncanny valley. When the proportions of the female body get skewed so much it stops being attractive and starts being repulsive. This is probably why I never really cared much for Bayonetta.
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Old 2013-04-26, 06:54   Link #227
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IMO it's finding an issue where there is none. The characters in question here was lifted from the game and attacked without context. like Tycho from PA said, the entire freaking game is a giant blob of hyper-styled... well, everything. FFS, the females looks more "normal" than the dudes in that game.

VW's game has always had that look, Odin's Sphere, Murasame etc. DC is even more stylized, but it's nothing they haven't done before.

Here's an excellent post from PAR's comment section before the author who called for discussion on the subject ironically shut it down because he apparently didn't like the direction it was going (ie. people pointing out all the double-standard and the douchebaggery of the original Kotaku article):

Spoiler:
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Old 2013-04-26, 07:12   Link #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
For me it's less about being ticked off over objectification and more something akin to uncanny valley. When the proportions of the female body get skewed so much it stops being attractive and starts being repulsive. This is probably why I never really cared much for Bayonetta.
It's her legs isn't it?
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Old 2013-04-26, 13:25   Link #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The Penny Arcade strip sums up my feelings about 50%. Being not straight and not attracted to freakish breast-mutants, I find both images, the actual one and the imagined one to be repulsive and disgusting.

If the artists of Dragon's Crown intended to squick everyone out with his artwork, he did a good job of it. I don't even think it's sexual objectification--I think it's grotesque sexual objectification. Fan Disservice rather than fanservice.

But maybe I'm just projecting my own feelings. I find most "objectified" female characters with gag boobs and impossible proportions in gaming to be grotesque and disgusting. It's not solely about breast size or the appearance of her face or anything like that--it's the whole package taken together. I have no problem with female characters that happen to have large breasts. That exists in reality.

What doesn't is freakishly huge gag boobs and freakishly narrow waists that no internal organs would fit inside, and then freakishly wide hips and a freakishly huge and rounded ass. Humans aren't built that way. If you're a woman with big boobs, chances are the rest of you is pretty large as well, but you never see that in gaming.

For me it's less about being ticked off over objectification and more something akin to uncanny valley. When the proportions of the female body get skewed so much it stops being attractive and starts being repulsive. This is probably why I never really cared much for Bayonetta.
This. In spades, sometimes I wonder if the art designer got their credentials carving graffitti on bathroom walls. There's "cartoon" and there's just "artist has never actually seen a female".
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Old 2013-04-26, 14:17   Link #230
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I think her breasts are ugly as hell to, but I'm more into smaller than average types on their own, let alone giant fucking knockers a little bigger than an adult-human head.




I read the guys article where he called the sorceress ''Loli Bait'', and I need to say that is by far the funniest thing I have ever heard, so I guess having a cute and young-looking face means you're a loli now, is that why some mangas are mistagged as having a Loli in it when it's just a average-chested 20+ year old who isn't a giant? If I was trying to argue with that guy seriously, I think I would offend him because I would seriously break out laughing at that point.
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Old 2013-04-26, 14:28   Link #231
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
This. In spades, sometimes I wonder if the art designer got their credentials carving graffitti on bathroom walls. There's "cartoon" and there's just "artist has never actually seen a female".
Let's be fair, this guy is also responsible for the utterly gorgeous art of past Vanillaware games.
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Old 2013-04-26, 14:31   Link #232
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
This. In spades, sometimes I wonder if the art designer got their credentials carving graffitti on bathroom walls. There's "cartoon" and there's just "artist has never actually seen a female".
Oh please =)

Video Game Art designers have 1 objective, and that is $$$. Marketing knows sex = Sales, since they been selling sex since the days of Shakespeare and Leonardo de Vinchi.

So what if they made the boobs a tad bit larger or the legs longer? As long as people are will to buy, the sexy chick will be there. Especially as a first time small developer who sank their budget into a games, sexy gamer chick has always been the easiest way to attract eyeballs and dollars, thank you very much.
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Old 2013-04-26, 14:33   Link #233
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A good game attracts my dollars and eyeballs.
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Old 2013-04-26, 14:36   Link #234
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A good game attracts my dollars and eyeballs.
A good game with good tits attracts twice the dollars and eyeballs that your crowd will ever attract.



....according to the mentality of many game designers, and to be honest I don't think they're far off; there are MANY other factors which can affect the success or failure of games that do this though...
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Old 2013-04-26, 15:23   Link #235
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There is some valid criticism regarding the depiction of the female sorcerer in Dragon's crown, but that article's author is trash. He barely does any research, his writing is juvenile, and is jumping on this issue just to get page hits, and it's working. The depiction of prostitutes in any GTA games is 100x more damaging to women than this game, yet it's not something that's ever been covered by Kotaku. He's just attacking Vanillaware because it's a easy target, they're a small overseas company that can't put any kind of financial pressure on Kotaku, and the typical Japanese response to such attacks it to apologize.
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Old 2013-04-26, 15:28   Link #236
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I'm not even really counting Dragon's Crown in the equation here. It's clear the artists were going for a grotesque style. None of the characters are the least bit attractive.

Generally speaking, though, ya'll are sitting there scratching your heads wondering why more of your girlfriends/wives/daughters/etc don't play video games.

This is a small part as to why.
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Old 2013-04-26, 15:32   Link #237
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
but put some delicious mancandy in there for the ladies. Why should the guys care? It's not like they're going to be looking at the male characters, anyway... unless there's something they aren't admitting, after all.
Oh That Made me Laugh so Hard
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
A good game attracts my dollars and eyeballs.
Yes I couldn't Agree More

As For me I'm a Hardcore Female Gamer... to be honest I couldn't careless if the game wasn't really targeted for women. To me its all the same I guess (as long as I get to choose my Gender, I do like playing as a female of COURSE), I play the game beat it and move on to the next or replay it if I liked it enough... What we really need is MORE great RPGs!
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Old 2013-04-26, 15:32   Link #238
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
A good game with good tits attracts twice the dollars and eyeballs that your crowd will ever attract.



....according to the mentality of many game designers, and to be honest I don't think they're far off; there are MANY other factors which can affect the success or failure of games that do this though...
It is true though. male gamer between early teen-Mid 30s are like 75+% of your audience potiential. Most of them will either like the hot female lead or at least meh the fact she is a hot female lead.

A hot female lead may or may not sell the game, but a ugly girl will certainly sink it. I think the only over weight female character I can think of (barring some kind of animmorphic character) is the Earth Princess (who is this farting fat-ass monster) from World of Warcraft.

The company who made is Blizzard, I.E top dog of gaming industry, and made her a villain to be butchered, and only dared to do it once.

That is saying something.
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Old 2013-04-26, 15:49   Link #239
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I'm not even really counting Dragon's Crown in the equation here. It's clear the artists were going for a grotesque style. None of the characters are the least bit attractive.

Generally speaking, though, ya'll are sitting there scratching your heads wondering why more of your girlfriends/wives/daughters/etc don't play video games.

This is a small part as to why.
Of course, but at this point I can't say I care (the rush of inane and asinine feminist posts across various sites and forums in the past few days have done nothing but turn me off to their cause).

The relatively low ratio of female games goes far beyond mere sexual bias in game design. games are no different than movies or books or any other medias when it comes to those bias, but those don't have any trouble finding female audience. From my own experience, most women I know either simply haven't even remotely thought about gaming at all (no, they didn't get offended, they never got that far), or is interested in nothing other than your typical browser games.

Is there bias in games? yes, but just like in other medias, there are plenty of titles that are either aimed at women or are gender neutral. Dismissing the entire medium because of the aesthetic design of some of the products would be akin to me dismissing all vampire-related stories because of Twilight, or shunning all fiction books because of 50 shades of gray or any other romance novels.
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Old 2013-04-26, 15:49   Link #240
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Personally I've never heard of vanillaware before nor I've ever seen their games (I guess I'm living under a rock), so after reading all these comments I became curious.

A simple search of "dragon's crown" on google images gave me several examples of the art used in this game and I must agree with those that say it's not just a single character, all of them are depicted with extreme attributes.

But I don't quite get what is the fuss anymore, is it because the characters are too appealing or because they aren't appealing enough? Because frankly as some of you have said they are simply too strange to be "fappable" material including the huge boobs woman and let's not go over the amazon with disproportionate hips. Perhaps this can attract some niche fetishist, but the vast majority? let's be serious.

But even if the characters aren't "beautiful" to me this art is very interesting it has a certain charm, just like Jojo's impossible anatomy or the acclaimed Picasso, you know. Humans are not made like that? And who cares? Isn't it long past the time when you needed to strictly adhere to real anatomy to make good art?

I think everyone is looking at it in the wrong way. This artist is awesome, and if his purpose was really to sell through fan service, he would draw something more mainstream.

In the end I feel that that author of Kotaku is really complaining that the sorceress's boobs are too big for his tastes and he covers his complaint with pseudo pro-feminist arguments.
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