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Old 2013-04-24, 18:36   Link #441
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Sharing is meant in terms of time. As in, let them have the entire court today, but only today. And Saika is the only one who really needs it. Hikki wasn't even playing when they arrived.
And here is the problem: that is not sharing.
You don't seem to understand that you are suggesting to give the court to Yumiko, not share it.

And why should Hachiman give it away? Because he was wronged only once?
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Old 2013-04-24, 18:36   Link #442
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Sharing is meant in terms of time. As in, let them have the entire court today, but only today. And Saika is the only one who really needs it. Hikki wasn't even playing when they arrived.
You keep saying that.

Why should they give up the court for them? If it was a free to all students then maybe you can argue, but they had to get permission for it in the first place implies otherwise.
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Old 2013-04-24, 18:56   Link #443
Clarste
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Well, why shouldn't they? It's not like Hikki wants to play. They're just fulfilling an obligation to Saika. If other students actually want to play, and Saika gets the practice anyway, what's the problem? There are permission issues of course, but that depends mostly on the attitude of the teachers.

And it is sharing. If I (5 year old me) have a toy firetruck that I like to play with, and another 5 year old comes up and want to play with it, the daycare people are going to ask me to share instead of throwing a tantrum. IE: give it to them temporarily. You don't have to cut the firetruck in half to share it. Timesharing is sharing too.

Honestly, your attitude sounds like a spoiled brat to me.
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Old 2013-04-24, 19:05   Link #444
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Well, why shouldn't they? It's not like Hikki wants to play. They're just fulfilling an obligation to Saika. If other students actually want to play, and Saika gets the practice anyway, what's the problem? There are permission issues of course, but that depends mostly on the attitude of the teachers.

And it is sharing. If I (5 year old me) have a toy firetruck that I like to play with, and another 5 year old comes up and want to play with it, the daycare people are going to ask me to share instead of throwing a tantrum. IE: give it to them temporarily. You don't have to cut the firetruck in half to share it. Timesharing is sharing too.

Honestly, your attitude sounds like a spoiled brat to me.
1) Yumiko did not promise they could use the court another day. You are assuming that they are using it only for the day and will not come back later. Your analogy does not hold.

2) Yumiko is the one who proposed the contest and the terms. Considering she is the one who suggested Hachiman leaves if she wins, she is essentially asking them to leave.

3) Your analogy is comparing two people who are using the same toy for the same purpose. In this case, we have Hachiman who obtained permission from an authority to use the court to help another person out, and Yumiko who just wants to use the court for fun. Which one sounds more important to you?
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Old 2013-04-24, 19:08   Link #445
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Well, why shouldn't they? It's not like Hikki wants to play. They're just fulfilling an obligation to Saika. If other students actually want to play, and Saika gets the practice anyway, what's the problem? There are permission issues of course, but that depends mostly on the attitude of the teachers.
For one thing, they don't have to and they have no reason to do so.

They're not friends and they don't own them anything.

Quote:
And it is sharing. If I (5 year old me) have a toy firetruck that I like to play with, and another 5 year old comes up and want to play with it, the daycare people are going to ask me to share instead of throwing a tantrum. IE: give it to them temporarily. You don't have to cut the firetruck in half to share it. Timesharing is sharing too.
Lol 5 years old children? Thats your analogy?

Here's the thing- daycare have adults supervising and they are responsible for what happens. They can act immediate if one of you two start a fight and later they are the ones who has to explain.

Highschool students don't have that net- they have to answer for their own decision.

Not only in high school but in the working world people need to cover their asses all the time.

You can do favors for people, but only those you trust.

Quote:
Honestly, your attitude sounds like a spoiled brat to me.
I sure hope you don't get swindle too much irl.
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Old 2013-04-24, 19:13   Link #446
Clarste
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You seriously these characters are more mature than 5 year olds? I thought that was the point. And I'd rather be swindled in rare cases than be a jerk all the time. Sorry I'm not as self-centered as you.

Seriously though, it's just a tennis court for one lunch break. If they come back tomorrow, you can put your foot down then. What's the difference? It's not like trust is even relevant here. You're just being a jerk and trying to justify it by claiming the world is too harsh to not be a jerk. Sorry, but the world is only harsh because of people like you.
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Old 2013-04-24, 19:15   Link #447
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
You seriously these characters are more mature than 5 year olds? I thought that was the point.

And I'd rather be swindled in rare cases than be a jerk all the time. Sorry I'm not as self-centered as you.
Your good will does not equate to Yumiko having good will in that situation. Who's the one projecting here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Seriously though, it's just a tennis court for one lunch break. If they come back tomorrow, you can put your foot down then. What's the difference? It's not like trust is even relevant here. You're just being a jerk and trying to justify it by claiming the world is too harsh to not be a jerk. Sorry, but the world is only harsh because of people like you.
Once again, you do realize Hachiman's group isn't doing this for fun, right?

Second, they don't have permission for "tomorrow". This is not "let them have it because we can easily get it another time", this is "we have an obligation to fulfill and got special permission for it, but we'll let these other guys have it effortlessly. We also don't know what will happen in the future, but hey we'll figure something out!"

All you're saying is that Yumiko is in the wrong but Hachiman should play it their way regardless as long as it's just once.
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Old 2013-04-24, 19:22   Link #448
finalfury
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Highschool students don't have that net- they have to answer for their own decision.
Not only in high school but in the working world people need to cover their asses all the time.
You can do favors for people, but only those you trust.
This is so true to the point where people are willing to use people as scapegoats or shift responsibility/blame towards other people.
Quoted for emphasis.
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Old 2013-04-24, 19:23   Link #449
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Your good will does not equate to Yumiko having good will in that situation. Who's the one projecting here?
Who cares if she has good will or not? Have you never heard the saying "be the better man?" Although, again, her will is actually completely irrelevant to the "share" plan. You give up a known and harmless amount of time with no expectation of payback. How could she possibly betray you, even if she wanted to? Spend the time ruining the field? I don't get it.


Quote:
Once again, you do realize Hachiman's group isn't doing this for fun, right?

Second, they don't have permission for "tomorrow". All you're saying is that Yumiko is in the wrong but Hachiman should play it their way regardless as long as it's just once.
They're doing it for Saika. Who won't be harmed either way. Or rather, he would be harmed by you wasting the entire break fighting a pointless duel. Oh hey, he was harmed. Hikki chose the path that couldn't possibly benefit Saika in any situation, rather than the one that might have been harmless.

If they don't have permission for tomorrow then Hikki just totally screwed Saika over. Wow, he's much worse than I thought.
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Old 2013-04-24, 19:23   Link #450
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
You seriously these characters are more mature than 5 year olds? I thought that was the point. And I'd rather be swindled in rare cases than be a jerk all the time. Sorry I'm not as self-centered as you.

Seriously though, it's just a tennis court for one lunch break. If they come back tomorrow, you can put your foot down then. What's the difference? It's not like trust is even relevant here. You're just being a jerk and trying to justify it by claiming the world is too harsh to not be a jerk. Sorry, but the world is only harsh because of people like you.
Lol no, im very certain you would not rather be swindled and taken advantage of- you may think its noble but it's not.

And there's a difference between being a jerk and being cautious- you might want to think about it.
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Old 2013-04-24, 19:29   Link #451
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Lol no, im very certain you would not rather be swindled and taken advantage of- you may think its noble but it's not.

And there's a difference between being a jerk and being cautious- you might want to think about it.
I've been swindled. It's not something that's never happened. I just don't think the correct response is to never trust anyone ever again.

There is in fact a difference between being a jerk and being cautious, but not sharing the field falls into the "jerk" side of things, no question. What the hell do you even have to be cautious of? I seriously don't understand what you're afraid Yumiko will do, other than fail to include Saika. Which the duel failed to do as well so Saika was screwed either way. Giving Yumiko a chance would have given Saika better odds of getting in some practice. That's cautious. What Hikki did was just stubborn.
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Old 2013-04-24, 19:33   Link #452
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Who cares if she has good will or not? Have you never heard the saying "be the better man?" Although, again, her will is actually completely irrelevant to the "share" plan. You give up a known and harmless amount of time with no expectation of payback. How could she possibly betray you, even if she wanted to? Spend the time ruining the field? I don't get it.
... then what's the point of your spoiled child analogy? This is not "sharing", period. You're suggesting Hachiman give them the court for no logical reason - only your personal moral reason of "being the better man".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
They're doing it for Saika. Who won't be harmed either way. Or rather, he would be harmed by you wasting the entire break fighting a pointless duel. Oh hey, he was harmed. Hikki chose the path that couldn't possibly benefit Saika in any situation, rather than the one that might have been harmless.

If they don't have permission for tomorrow then Hikki just totally screwed Saika over. Wow, he's much worse than I thought.
I like how you think Saika losing time due to being kicked off by Yumiko is "harmless" while him losing time from fighting for his right to the court is harmful by comparison, even when Saika sincerely thanked Hachiman for what he did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I've been swindled. It's not something that's never happened. I just don't think the correct response is to never trust anyone ever again.
Stop asserting your personal morals into this argument. No one is telling you or anyone to distrust everyone for life. We are judging one case. Should Yumiko specifically be given the court?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
There is in fact a difference between being a jerk and being cautious, but not sharing the field falls into the "jerk" side of things, no question. What the hell do you even have to be cautious of? I seriously don't understand what you're afraid Yumiko will do, other than fail to include Saika. Which the duel failed to do as well so Saika was screwed either way. Giving Yumiko a chance would have given Saika better odds of getting in some practice. That's cautious. What Hikki did was just stubborn.
For the umpteenth time...

Yumiko is the one who picked a fight with them in the first place. She proposed the contest and rules. She did not simply ask. That was Hayato. Yumiko did not give them a chance to work things out peacefully.
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Old 2013-04-24, 19:33   Link #453
erneiz_hyde
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Seriously guys, give Yumiko a chance. I can get that her attitude is not like-able, but I agree with Clarste that people are 'demonizing' her a bit too much. What interpretation do you guys have about the Yumiko-Yui confrontation in ep.1? I'd say it's enough to tell that she's not your typical one-dimensional queen bully caricature.
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Old 2013-04-24, 19:40   Link #454
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I've been swindled. It's not something that's never happened. I just don't think the correct response is to never trust anyone ever again.
Never trust anyone easily again.

Quote:
There is in fact a difference between being a jerk and being cautious, but not sharing the field falls into the "jerk" side of things, no question. What the hell do you even have to be cautious of? I seriously don't understand what you're afraid Yumiko will do, other than fail to include Saika. Which the duel failed to do as well so Saika was screwed either way. Giving Yumiko a chance would have given Saika better odds of getting in some practice. That's cautious. What Hikki did was just stubborn.
This is getting us nowhere- if you want to continue your illusion then I have nothing else to say because we'll just be going around in circles with you jumping around the issue and applying your reality instead of viewing the situation as it is.
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Old 2013-04-24, 19:44   Link #455
finalfury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Seriously guys, give Yumiko a chance. I can get that her attitude is not like-able, but I agree with Clarste that people are 'demonizing' her a bit too much. What interpretation do you guys have about the Yumiko-Yui confrontation in ep.1? I'd say it's enough to tell that she's not your typical one-dimensional queen bully caricature.
There's a reason why first impressions are important, but I do understand the point you are trying to make. Even if Yumiko has likable traits or turns out to be someone who saved a child from being run over by a truck, her initial impression still sticks with me and makes me view her as an unlikable character. That and the characteristics of asking for things with the intent of receiving them just irritates me.
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Old 2013-04-24, 19:45   Link #456
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Seriously guys, give Yumiko a chance. I can get that her attitude is not like-able, but I agree with Clarste that people are 'demonizing' her a bit too much. What interpretation do you guys have about the Yumiko-Yui confrontation in ep.1? I'd say it's enough to tell that she's not your typical one-dimensional queen bully caricature.
Is that why she picked the fight with them by proposing the rules of the challenge to chase them off?

So what if she's not one dimensional? Does it make her other bad qualities any less?

Do they suddenly have to give in to her demands?
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Old 2013-04-24, 19:46   Link #457
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
.I like how you think Saika losing time due to being kicked off by Yumiko is "harmless" while him losing time from fighting for his right to the court is harmful by comparison, even when Saika sincerely thanked Hachiman for what he did.
"Might" have been harmless. As in it's a gamble. A pretty good gamble too, since there's no indication that Yumiko is a liar. And of course if she was a liar there'd also be no reason to believe she'll to keep her word and back off after the duel...

But more to the point there is absolutely no way you can benefit from accepting the duel, and a chance you'll benefit even from letting her walk all over you. Of course the best option might be to drive her away by appealing to the permission and all that, as a second best option trusting her is better than fighting back. There is literally no reason to fight back. It can't benefit anyone.

Yumiko proposed the duel, but there was no obligation for Hikki to accept. And frankly he antagonized them first by picking a fight with Hayato.

Edit: The morality and jerkishness comes from the fact that you're so distrustful of her that you'd rather sabotage your own interests to spite her. You think that more than there being a chance of her denying Saika an opportunity to practice, that she will do so and therefore you should preemptively counterattack against the thing she hasn't even done yet and probably wouldn't do.

It's the logic of a loser. Which makes it fit Hikki perfectly, but doesn't make it smart.
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Old 2013-04-24, 19:56   Link #458
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
"Might" have been harmless. As in it's a gamble. A pretty good gamble too, since there's no indication that Yumiko is a liar. And of course if she was a liar there'd also be no reason to believe she'll to keep her word and back off after the duel...

But more to the point there is absolutely no way you can benefit from accepting the duel, and a chance you'll benefit even from letting her walk all over you. Of course the best option might be to drive her away by appealing to the permission and all that, as a second best option trusting her is better than fighting back. There is literally no reason to fight back. It can't benefit anyone.
...trusting her for what? She's not promising them anything. No where does it say she would help Saika or let them have the court another time.

The point is that she wanted the court for her group now (which should have been evident from proposing a contest instead of just asking), and whatever happens afterward, happens.

There is literally no way Hachiman or Saika benefit from letting Yumiko having the court. All it does is satisfy your moral opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Yumiko proposed the duel, but there was no obligation for Hikki to accept. And frankly he antagonized them first by picking a fight with Hayato.
So does that mean we agree that Yumiko has no grounds for getting the court herself (even though you want her to have it anyway)? Good.
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Old 2013-04-24, 20:01   Link #459
Clarste
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I never said I wanted her to have it. I said letting her have it would have been a better response than what Hikki did. The best response is to appeal to the authority of the teachers. Because frankly Hikki doesn't even have the right to let her use the field.

Quote:
No where does it say she would help Saika or let them have the court another time.
She did say she would help Saika. If you missed that that might explain your attitude. She promised to let Saika practice with them. Because she's actually not the devil. Or at least she can successfully pretend to not be the devil.
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Old 2013-04-24, 20:03   Link #460
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Edit: The morality and jerkishness comes from the fact that you're so distrustful of her that you'd rather sabotage your own interests to spite her. You think that more than there being a chance of her denying Saika an opportunity to practice, that she will do so and therefore you should preemptively counterattack against the thing she hasn't even done yet and probably wouldn't do.
Wow stop white knighting.

Yumiko is not some frail helpless girl being misunderstood.
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