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Old 2013-04-26, 01:06   Link #2441
Admiral Larsen
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From what I recall, the CE series was hopefully going to be a new beginning for the Gundam metaseries, particularly now they they had to work with a wider audience and a new generation of fans.

However despite how things ended in SEED, there seemed to be a possibility to continue and improve on it.

Then of course when we got SEED Destiny, it wrecked the few things that worked and really magnified the problems that SEED had. Then of course we had the problems behind the scenes which really makes on wonder if some sort of drug was going around there at the time. It's also not helped by the insanely brutal wars on the forums and websites when dealing with this series.

It got so bad that one wishes that Rau had triumphed overall because he is pretty much right in his actions and that any action either done by the protagonists or the antagonist just shows really the evil of humanity, thereby justifying Rau's viewpoint.
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Old 2013-04-26, 01:19   Link #2442
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Originally Posted by Admiral Larsen View Post
It got so bad that one wishes that Rau had triumphed overall because he is pretty much right in his actions and that any action either done by the protagonists or the antagonist just shows really the evil of humanity, thereby justifying Rau's viewpoint.
Rau was definitely about humanity's destruction, but I think he saw himself was of a catalyst than the one to be truly responsible. Like he was basically moving things along, like his leaking of the N-Jammer Canceler to the EA to restore their ability to use nuclear weapons. Basically, neither side (between the EA and ZAFT anyway) was meant to "win" the war, but he was trying to make it continue on until humanity just destroyed itself due to hatred and vengeance; either the EA brings it about by killing countless Coordinators with their nuclear missiles or ZAFT brings it about by killing countless Naturals with GENESIS, it didn't matter to him.

But yeah, as we see with SEED Destiny, even though our protagonists "win" in the end of SEED, nothing has really changed. Tensions were still extremely high over the next two years and all it took to set things off again was a terrorist act by remnants of a loyal force to Patrick Zala that was completely separate from ZAFT's current leadership leading to the EA (while most likely ignoring ZAFT's attempts at explanation and showing of how they tried to stop the group themselves along with them immediately sending aid to affected spots on Earth) immediately trying to, once again, nuke the PLANTs (pretty much waiting for an excuse). Add on things like LOGOS being exposed to exist and Dullindal revealing trying to play a god with people's future and it pretty much proved Rau correct, if in a delayed fashion.
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Old 2013-04-26, 12:31   Link #2443
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Speaking of Rau being correct:

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Old 2013-04-26, 21:43   Link #2444
Skye629
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Speaking of Rau being correct:

Second favorite Rau quote lol

Lacus is just way too naive (both series)
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Old 2013-04-26, 21:48   Link #2445
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Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
Second favorite Rau quote lol

Lacus is just way too naive (both series)
A bit, yeah, but I still find Kira much more so.

At least Lacus knew how they were going about things was hypocritical; telling others to stop fighting WHILE shooting at them themselves, virtually holding guns to the heads of both sides. ("We call for peace, but with weapons in our hands.") It also gets brought up by Athrun in SEED Destiny on how Kira and the Archangel's "interventions" earlier in the series does nothing but cause unneeded chaos and results in lives being needlessly lost in the confusion (and Heine ending up being a more personal loss as a result).
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Old 2013-04-26, 21:54   Link #2446
monster
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Originally Posted by Skye629 View Post
Lacus is just way too naive (both series)
There is some naivety to Lacus, but I don't really think that she's too na´ve, just enough not to be cynical about the world.
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A bit, yeah, but I still find Kira much more so.

At least Lacus knew how they were going about things was hypocritical; telling others to stop fighting WHILE shooting at them themselves, virtually holding guns to the heads of both sides. ("We call for peace, but with weapons in our hands.") It also gets brought up by Athrun in SEED Destiny on how Kira and the Archangel's "interventions" earlier in the series does nothing but cause unneeded chaos and results in lives being needlessly lost in the confusion (and Heine ending up being a more personal loss as a result).
I don't see how that translates to Kira being na´ve. On the contrary, the chaos and confusion were Kira's best tools in Destiny.
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Old 2013-04-26, 23:17   Link #2447
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I'm actually going by the theory that Kira's intervention's during the Orb/EA vs Minerva battles was because he was deliberately trying to get the Orb forces decimated so they could withdraw without losing face (which is what eventually happened). But rather than let Minerva blow everyone up with their cannon he tried to control the losses so most survived. Note how despite their being several minutes between Athrun being disabled and Shinn sinking the Orb carrier Kira doesn't seem to lift a finger to stop Shinn. I think he wanted the carrier destroyed so that Orb could say they tried their best and retreat. Which is what happens because EA salutes the sinking ship and lets the rest of the Orb fleet limp back to Orb.

He knew it was the only way to get Orb out of that fight without bringing EA down on them.
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Old 2013-04-26, 23:41   Link #2448
monster
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Kira was simply too far away. The ship was already crippled by the Minerva and Todaka had already ordered the evacuation before Kira got there.

It could be Todaka's plan all along though. Everyone was surprised that the Takemikazuchi would dare to attack the Minerva directly.

Interestingly enough, Kira disabled Rey in that scene. I never noticed that before.
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Old 2013-04-27, 12:16   Link #2449
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That was what Todoka was certainly aiming for yes. He even tells Yuna as much. He had his men fight their hardest and give up their lives for EA so they can't possibly say Orb didn't live up to the agreement.

But I think Kira knew that as well. It was the only way for Orb to get out of that fight without looking like betraying the EA. And while everyone else on team AA is shocked at the ship sinking, Kira doesn't seem remotely surprised or upset.
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Old 2013-04-27, 13:53   Link #2450
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I don't think so. Kira was angry at Athrun for implying that Orb's sacrifice was necessary while letting Cagalli cry. Kira wouldn't do the same and think that Takemikazuchi's sacrifice was necessary while letting Cagalli cry.
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Old 2013-04-27, 15:49   Link #2451
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Athrun wasn't implying that Orb's sacrifice was necessery. He was saying that Minerva was in the right and Orb was in the wrong, and Kira was angry that Athrun was considering Orb (and by extension Cagalli) his enemy. Personally I think he was just mad that Athrun was ditching them after Kira went through the trouble of kidnapping Cagalli from her wedding for Athrun's sake.
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Old 2013-04-27, 16:08   Link #2452
Admiral Larsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Athrun wasn't implying that Orb's sacrifice was necessery. He was saying that Minerva was in the right and Orb was in the wrong, and Kira was angry that Athrun was considering Orb (and by extension Cagalli) his enemy. Personally I think he was just mad that Athrun was ditching them after Kira went through the trouble of kidnapping Cagalli from her wedding for Athrun's sake.
Well from Athrun's point of view, Cagalli did not tell him of the wedding and allowed Orb to join the Earth Alliance (in other words the love of his life stabbing him in the back). In his view after all of that, all bets are off.

Of course this is both sides fault, Cagalli for not having backbone and standing her ground and Athrun mired in his own problems and leaving her right when she needed him the most. Of course Kira is also at fault as he withdrew from the world and did not back his sister up during the intervening two years.
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Old 2013-04-27, 16:15   Link #2453
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Of course this is both sides fault, Cagalli for not having backbone and standing her ground and Athrun mired in his own problems and leaving her right when she needed him the most. Of course Kira is also at fault as he withdrew from the world and did not back his sister up during the intervening two years.
It doesn't help that, despite their noble intentions, Kira and co. attacking both sides like they did essentially makes them like terrorists in the eyes of the EA and ZAFT; Athrun even having to use a fake identity while guarding Cagalli and only through Dullindal was he allowed back into ZAFT (and Murrue also using a fake identity) as well as being traitors to their initial respective sides. You'd think if they truly believed what they were saying in the last parts of SEED that they'd be out there continuing to try to preach their ideals to the world instead of hiding like criminals.
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"Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon
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Old 2013-04-27, 16:15   Link #2454
monster
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Athrun wasn't implying that Orb's sacrifice was necessery.
No, Athrun implied that when he stopped Kira from protecting Orb soldiers. Athrun knew Kira wasn't going to kill Shinn, but he delayed him anyway, thus allowing Shinn to kill more Orb soldiers. That's why Kira decided to just take Athrun out of the picture right then and there.
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Of course Kira is also at fault as he withdrew from the world and did not back his sister up during the intervening two years.
That's not Kira's responsibility.
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It doesn't help that, despite their noble intentions, Kira and co. attacking both sides like they did essentially makes them like terrorists in the eyes of the EA and ZAFT; Athrun even having to use a fake identity while guarding Cagalli and only through Dullindal was he allowed back into ZAFT (and Murrue also using a fake identity) as well as being traitors to their initial respective sides. You'd think if they truly believed what they were saying in the last parts of SEED that they'd be out there continuing to try to preach their ideals to the world instead of hiding like criminals.
They're not hiding. Their ideal was that peace could be achieved without exterminating the other side, which happened already at the end of SEED and for 2 years afterward.

By the way, why are you now even complaining that they're not preaching their ideals? It seemed like you've been against their ideals from the start.
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Old 2013-04-27, 17:26   Link #2455
Aquaman OS
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It's also likely he protected Shinn from Kira because he was afraid Shinn might go the way of Heine (disabled, and killed by someone else), especially since Shinn was also fighting Auel who would have easily wiped Shinn out if he was helpless.

I don't think Kira was particularly adamant that no Orb soldiers get attacked when he himself was attacking them. And his own wingman Andy was making kill shots on them (because he didn't have the skill to disable them like Kira does). Likewise in the first battle he didn't stop Shinn and Heine from attacking Orb forces (he did however stop them when they tried to fire at him)

The reason he tried to go after Shinn (and later disabled Athrun) in the 2nd battle was because Shinn was trying to attack CAGALLI. That he did not find acceptable, and the fact that Athrun was seemingly siding with the guy that tried to frag Cagalli was why he was getting so angry. And when Cagalli again tried to approach Shinn, and Athrun tried blocking him again, that's when Kira Seeded and chopped him up. Except a Murasame shielded her and had her back off, so Kira seemingly went back to disabling.

And throughout all this, Kira doesn't seem surprised or upset that the Orb fleet is getting pounded, unlike Cagalli who's crying almost nonstop. So either he wasn't expecting their plan to work, or he wanted them to get wrecked (although maybe not to the extent that they were since he stopped Minerva from blasting them with the main gun, and he seemed surprised Shinn was so powerful). He could haven't wanted the Orb fleet to win. If he did he could have simply allowed the Murasame team to sink Minerva, instead of saving it. And he wouldn't have mostly fired on Orb and EA, while mostly ignoring Minerva's team unless they took shots at him or Cagalli.
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Old 2013-04-27, 17:51   Link #2456
monster
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It's also likely he protected Shinn from Kira because he was afraid Shinn might go the way of Heine (disabled, and killed by someone else), especially since Shinn was also fighting Auel who would have easily wiped Shinn out if he was helpless.
Athrun's reasoning doesn't really matter. Kira was only reacting to Athrun saying that Kira should let Orb soldiers be killed while Cagalli was crying because of that. That's what Kira was angry about. That's also why I don't see Kira wanting the Takemikazuchi to be destroyed.
Quote:
I don't think Kira was particularly adamant that no Orb soldiers get attacked when he himself was attacking them. And his own wingman Andy was making kill shots on them (because he didn't have the skill to disable them like Kira does). Likewise in the first battle he didn't stop Shinn and Heine from attacking Orb forces (he did however stop them when they tried to fire at him)
Sure, but that's not the point. Kira's not saying the Minerva crew doesn't have the right to defend themselves. However, that doesn't mean he's going to let them destroy Orb either. Andrew was attacking Orb soldiers that attacked Cagalli and the Archangel. He didn't go out of his way to attack Orb forces.
Quote:
The reason he tried to go after Shinn (and later disabled Athrun) in the 2nd battle was because Shinn was trying to attack CAGALLI. That he did not find acceptable, and the fact that Athrun was seemingly siding with the guy that tried to frag Cagalli was why he was getting so angry. And when Cagalli again tried to approach Shinn, and Athrun tried blocking him again, that's when Kira Seeded and chopped him up. Except a Murasame shielded her and had her back off, so Kira seemingly went back to disabling.
Sure, Kira wouldn't find Cagalli being killed to be acceptable, but the reason he attacked Athrun was because Athrun was telling Kira to let Cagalli cry and not do a thing about the Orb soldiers getting killed. This is from Kira's own words before he destroyed the Saviour.
Quote:
And throughout all this, Kira doesn't seem surprised or upset that the Orb fleet is getting pounded, unlike Cagalli who's crying almost nonstop. So either he wasn't expecting their plan to work, or he wanted them to get wrecked (although maybe not to the extent that they were since he stopped Minerva from blasting them with the main gun, and he seemed surprised Shinn was so powerful). He could haven't wanted the Orb fleet to win. If he did he could have simply allowed the Murasame team to sink Minerva, instead of saving it. And he wouldn't have mostly fired on Orb and EA, while mostly ignoring Minerva's team unless they took shots at him or Cagalli.
Kira wasn't surprised because he's well aware of the reality of a battle. That doesn't mean he wanted the Takemikazuchi to be shot down. Also, the reason why he seemed to be ignoring the Minerva's team is simply because of the number's game. Only Shinn and Athrun were flying around and he did attack Shinn until Athrun interfered. He also attacked Rey when he got close to the Minerva while Lunamaria was already disabled.
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Old 2013-04-27, 18:17   Link #2457
Aquaman OS
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That means that there's no rhyme or reason to his actions. He just went out and shot up everyone just because. And since there's no reason to do that that really can't be.

But if he really wanted Orb to get out unscathed he would have allowed them to sink the Minerva, not save it. And he wouldn't have spent most of the first sea battle ignoring Minerva's team in favor of attacking Orb and EA.
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Old 2013-04-27, 18:34   Link #2458
monster
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
That means that there's no rhyme or reason to his actions. He just went out and shot up everyone just because. And since there's no reason to do that that really can't be.

But if he really wanted Orb to get out unscathed he would have allowed them to sink the Minerva, not save it. And he wouldn't have spent most of the first sea battle ignoring Minerva's team in favor of attacking Orb and EA.
The reason is simple: Cagalli. Cagalli doesn't want Orb to be destroyed and, at the same time, Cagalli/Kira doesn't have any real problem with the Minerva. They're not going to let Orb be the cause of the Minerva's destruction.

Also, Kira didn't ignore the Minerva's team. He attacked the Minerva itself, Shinn, Heine, and he would've attacked Athrun if Athrun had done anything.
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Old 2013-04-27, 18:38   Link #2459
Aquaman OS
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He only fired on Shinn and Heine when they attacked him, and Minerva only to take out their cannon. He could have continued firing at Minerva took out Rey and Luna's Zaku's and then gone for Shinn, Athrun and Heine right away. Instead he starts shooting Orb and EA, and only attacks Zaft forces if they shoot at him first (ignoring the initial shot against Minerva)
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Old 2013-04-27, 18:46   Link #2460
monster
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He only fired on Shinn and Heine when they attacked him
Kira was firing at everyone who was attacking, whether it's at him or someone else.
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Minerva only to take out their cannon. He could have continued firing at Minerva took out Rey and Luna's Zaku's and then gone for Shinn, Athrun and Heine right away. Instead he starts shooting Orb and EA, and only attacks Zaft forces if they shoot at him first (ignoring the initial shot against Minerva)
No, he was letting Cagalli speak first. He didn't decide to fight until after the Orb soldiers attacked Cagalli and the battle resumed.
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