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Old 2013-04-29, 18:55   Link #481
Awrya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yuzen003 View Post
Not all tests have the same criteria. The previous test where they had to gather ingredients was a test that stressed flexibility and creative thinking, they can make anything they want and the final evaluation was as long as the dish was good they passed.
Agreed.
Quote:
This test has everyone in a single enclosed space, everyone is supposed to make the same dish, and everyone has the same access to supplies. There is a single "correct" answer and they are being tested on if they can reach that answer.
He could have mixed bad ingredients with enough good ones and fail the ones that picked bad ingredients.
They all had access to supplies, but the supplies were not of equal quality.
This wasn't a test on whether they can reach the correct answer, since she and other late students weren't given a choice.

Quote:
Luck really isn't a factor here since everyone had the exact same access to the produce, anyone with the observation skills could have seen the cauliflower situation and prioritized that before the other ingredients. If Megumi had done so she likely would have got a good one even if she isn't aggressive enough, but she left it for last.
Luck really is no factor, since no matter what, the last few people will fail.
The cauliflower didn't turn bad because she was late, they were bad to begin with.
Exactly how could she have seen the cauliflower situation, when the bad ones were buried underneath all the good ones?
If you're cooking, you'd at least expect them to prepare fresh ingredients.
Quote:
Compare it to an essay based exam versus a math test. An essay will be graded based on if the judge likes it and as long as it is not a complete mess it is entirely subjective the other is exacting and you are either correct or you are incorrect.

I do think the glasses guy is an ass, but the test itself isn't necessarily a bad test.
If we compare this to a maths test, the question on a few papers have an error (cauliflower) compared to the others, but the students are marked based on the right question. So whether you solved the wrong question correctly or not, you're still going to fail because the examiner gave you a question with errors.
How is this not necessarily bad?
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Old 2013-04-29, 19:46   Link #482
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Then I suppose the best description or analogy is a math teacher putting a stack of 50 testpapers set for exactly 50 students and tells them to get a piece on their own. They are advised to pick wisely and consider each other enemies. Some papers have that "wrong question" as stated above. So that means answering it right or wrong will still land you with no credit for it despite holding 30% of your grade. The only reasoning the teacher gives you for this is "in real life you have to be a go getter. This is just a test for that."

...
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Old 2013-04-29, 20:21   Link #483
ReaperxKingx
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Looks like I am with the Majority this time as I side with Souma with this recent chapter. It is already stated that all students at Tootsuki are all good chefs, even even they get expelled, pretty sure they'll get hired quickly. Though to be on top of the mountain in the cooking world, you must be an elite and at least graduate Tootsuki. So I already know what the manga is before anyone jumps in and gives insults to my comments.

Shinomiya has a lot of pride (too much actually), remember he screamed at Hinako like she was his own employee. In this case, Shinomiya is a employer not a teacher, therefore the aim is to ensure that your employees can perform and work at the desired standards for a chef that will ensure your restaurant's survival and reputation. Any chef that tells you that you must follow instructions towards a recipe when given inadequate ingredients, isn't a Chef.

bones, your statements are too rigid. These are students that are learning to be Chefs, therefore, as a employer you look for Chefs that can be flexible and adapt. As an employer, if there happen to be a late shipment of ingredients or maintenance failure of the work site. The ingredients are not perfect, but are not dangerous and can be still be improvise to make the required meals served in your restaurant. Do you call it quits, take a loss in both profit and investments, NO YOU DO NOT. What Megumi did is what most employers would go over a frenzy to hire based on her skills.
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Old 2013-04-29, 20:44   Link #484
yuzen003
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
I don't think a portion of the class would be prevented from choosing the right answers in a math test.
Which is why the comparison to a math test was an analogy of the nature of the test rather then a description of the test. He has provided a standard and the goal is to recreate that, not to improve on it or show he creative you are but to be able to cook to a recipe. McDonalds is hardly a great restaurant, but one reason it has been as successful as it has is consistency go to any McDonalds and you'll be able to get the same kind of food with pretty much the same taste. Being able to reproduce the flavor the customers expect is kind of important, changes for the "better" will not necessarily be something the customer will enjoy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awrya View Post
He could have mixed bad ingredients with enough good ones and fail the ones that picked bad ingredients.
They all had access to supplies, but the supplies were not of equal quality.
This wasn't a test on whether they can reach the correct answer, since she and other late students weren't given a choice.
As the examiner he deliberately set up a cutoff below 100% because he wanted to use his exam to screen for things he considers failings in a chef, some teachers grade more harshly then others. He's an ass and it's not fair, but everyone had the same access to the ingredients and the same information available after that they needed to use their judgement to figure out how to manage their time, acquire the necessary ingredients, and produce the expected product. She and everyone else there was given an equal chance to pass, the fact that there was an arbitrary cut off doesn't mean she didn't have the exact same chance as everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Awrya View Post
Luck really is no factor, since no matter what, the last few people will fail.
The cauliflower didn't turn bad because she was late, they were bad to begin with.
Exactly how could she have seen the cauliflower situation, when the bad ones were buried underneath all the good ones?
If you're cooking, you'd at least expect them to prepare fresh ingredients.
Given the positioning of the bad cauliflower (they are all scattered around) they were not a little pyramid of bad ones hiding under all the good ones likely they were mixed together. The faster students would have needed to use their judgement to pick a good cauliflower, given his personality Shinomiya would have failed someone who was fast and just grabbed a bad cauliflower just as quickly. You could fail if you didn't have the basic skills needed to make the recipe, you could fail if you lacked the ability to properly judge the ingredients, and you could fail if you were too slow and got stuck with a bad cauliflower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awrya View Post
If we compare this to a maths test, the question on a few papers have an error (cauliflower) compared to the others, but the students are marked based on the right question. So whether you solved the wrong question correctly or not, you're still going to fail because the examiner gave you a question with errors.
How is this not necessarily bad?
If you are assuming that this is a math test and everyone can get a passing grade that's an erroneous assumption. Shinomiya is using his exam as a screening process, not everyone is going to pass by design and the reasons why you can fail the exam are real failings for a chef.
Being a chef is more then just being able to cook good food, that would make you a good cook, if you are going to be running a kitchen you need to be able to serve the customer when it is convenient for them. Time/speed is a factor and the test evaluates speed with the cauliflower cut off.

This exam was pretty much designed to test skills other then simple cooking ability. I've always heard being a chef is essentially being a manager and you need to manage a lot of non-cooking factors.

Just my thoughts and likely the manga will not go in that direction. I'm not sure anyone would want to learn about the daily tedium of managing a restraunt, procurement, designing a menu, marketing, safety standards, or managing human resources aren't exactly exciting.
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Old 2013-04-29, 21:17   Link #485
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Originally Posted by yuzen003 View Post
Which is why the comparison to a math test was an analogy of the nature of the test rather then a description of the test. He has provided a standard and the goal is to recreate that, not to improve on it or show he creative you are but to be able to cook to a recipe. McDonalds is hardly a great restaurant, but one reason it has been as successful as it has is consistency go to any McDonalds and you'll be able to get the same kind of food with pretty much the same taste. Being able to reproduce the flavor the customers expect is kind of important, changes for the "better" will not necessarily be something the customer will enjoy.
Once again a false analogy, because I highly doubt a customer will realize that the chicken used to make their Chicken McNuggets may not even be real meat.

Or if a customer happens to order orange juice from them, I doubt the customer would realize that the orange juice isn't actually made from real oranges.

The poor ingredients are not something Megumi chose but were given to her.
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Old 2013-04-29, 22:10   Link #486
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I think we should withold our comments unless is ecplicitly explained what was the test looking for, in order to qualify, this is a school, and be it in a school setting, or in a work setting Megumi qualifies, you shouldnt (we shoudnt) throw comments about what a test is all about when we dont know for sure if thats what this is all about.

But I shall be in the side of Megumi even if Im wrong
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Old 2013-04-29, 22:36   Link #487
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yuzen003 View Post
Which is why the comparison to a math test was an analogy of the nature of the test rather then a description of the test. He has provided a standard and the goal is to recreate that, not to improve on it or show he creative you are but to be able to cook to a recipe. McDonalds is hardly a great restaurant, but one reason it has been as successful as it has is consistency go to any McDonalds and you'll be able to get the same kind of food with pretty much the same taste. Being able to reproduce the flavor the customers expect is kind of important, changes for the "better" will not necessarily be something the customer will enjoy.
Being able to cook consistently is important, but what's even more important is feeding the customer.

If this happened in an actual restaraunt, would you give the person who paid a lot of money to eat a refund after they waited at your restaraunt a long time, or would you give them the food Megumi cooked? If he's going to treat them as underlings, then he needs to behave like a chef. A chef's job is to give people food that's worth their money, not obsess over recipes.

Quote:
As the examiner he deliberately set up a cutoff below 100% because he wanted to use his exam to screen for things he considers failings in a chef, some teachers grade more harshly then others. He's an ass and it's not fair, but everyone had the same access to the ingredients and the same information available after that they needed to use their judgement to figure out how to manage their time, acquire the necessary ingredients, and produce the expected product. She and everyone else there was given an equal chance to pass, the fact that there was an arbitrary cut off doesn't mean she didn't have the exact same chance as everyone else.
That's the thing, they DIDN'T have equal access to the ingredients or an equal chance to pass.

For example, if there were 100 students, the recipe required 1 cauliflower, and there were 150 cauliflowers there, with 10 being bad, then they would have equal access to the good and bad ingredients and an equal chance to pass, since everyone would have a choice between a good and bad cauliflower.

What actually happened was more like there being 100 cauliflowers and 10 being bad. Starting from the first person to pick going down, the access to good ingredients and the chance to pass decreased until some people, like Megumi had no chance at all. He basically turned it into a race, except they didn't all start at the same place, since they obviously didn't pick cauliflowers all at once. It would as if they were put in a line and told to start running, without being allowed to overtake anyone, and the people at the end of the line fail.

Quote:
Given the positioning of the bad cauliflower (they are all scattered around) they were not a little pyramid of bad ones hiding under all the good ones likely they were mixed together. The faster students would have needed to use their judgement to pick a good cauliflower, given his personality Shinomiya would have failed someone who was fast and just grabbed a bad cauliflower just as quickly. You could fail if you didn't have the basic skills needed to make the recipe, you could fail if you lacked the ability to properly judge the ingredients, and you could fail if you were too slow and got stuck with a bad cauliflower.
As I said above, that's not fair if not all students don't have an equal chance between good and bad cauliflowers. Even if it was just a race, since he set up those conditions, it's simply pointless if the students can't even pass when they manage to beat the speed dilemna. Using the race analogy again, it would as if someone in the worst lane managed to win, but you disqualify them because they were in a bad lane.

Quote:
If you are assuming that this is a math test and everyone can get a passing grade that's an erroneous assumption. Shinomiya is using his exam as a screening process, not everyone is going to pass by design and the reasons why you can fail the exam are real failings for a chef.
Being a chef is more then just being able to cook good food, that would make you a good cook, if you are going to be running a kitchen you need to be able to serve the customer when it is convenient for them. Time/speed is a factor and the test evaluates speed with the cauliflower cut off.

This exam was pretty much designed to test skills other then simple cooking ability. I've always heard being a chef is essentially being a manager and you need to manage a lot of non-cooking factors.
If it's a screening process, then why not just put a cap on the number of people that can pass, rather than sabotage?

If it's about testing skills necessary for a chef other than cooking, such as the skill to get ingredients quickly, then he should have passed Megumi since she demonstrated the most important ability for a chef: feeding the customer their money's worth no matter what.
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Last edited by Endscape; 2013-04-29 at 23:02.
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Old 2013-04-29, 22:51   Link #488
yuzen003
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Once again a false analogy, because I highly doubt a customer will realize that the chicken used to make their Chicken McNuggets may not even be real meat.

Or if a customer happens to order orange juice from them, I doubt the customer would realize that the orange juice isn't actually made from real oranges.

The poor ingredients are not something Megumi chose but were given to her.
Consistency as a concept has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the ingredients, Chicken McNuggets could be made out of pork byproduct and as long as it had the same taste, texture, and appearance of what customers expect then it would pass the consistancy requirement. In this test consistency to the recipe was obviously one of the main factors the students were being evaluated on, she changed the recipe when she failed to procure ingredients of a good quality.

The test was never designed with a 100% pass rate and it's not fair to people who are slow because they couldn't get the ingredients, I agree. The bad cauliflower was thrown in there to ensure some people would fail because they were not fast enough to get one of the limited number of good ones and Shinomiya probably does take great enjoyment in failing people.

On the other hand as a consumer I've been in restaurants that you can't be sure on any given night if the food will be great, mediocre, or bad. I've also been to places that take a long time to cook my food and it has negatively impacted my opinion of those restaurants. I as a consumer can see the importance of consistency and speed in a chef which this test evaluates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Being able to cook consistently is important, but what's even more important is feeding the customer.

If this happened in an actual restaraunt, would you give the person who paid a lot of money to eat a refund after they waited at your restaraunt a long time, or would you give them the food Megumi cooked? If he's going to treat them as underlings, then he needs to behave like a chef. A chef's job is to give people food that's worth their money, not obsess over recipes.
Kind of why she failed, specifically the "waited at your restaraunt a long time", I've known people who will leave a restaurant if the wait is too long. The test was partially evaluating speed given slow students would be stuck with bad cauliflower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
That's the thing, they DIDN'T have equal access to the ingredients or an equal chance to pass.

For example, if there were 100 students, the recipe required 1 cauliflower, and there were 150 cauliflowers there, with 10 being bad, then they would have equal access to the good and bad ingredients and an equal chance to pass, since everyone would have a choice between a good and bad cauliflower.
If there are 100 students, 90 good cauliflower and 10 bad everyone starts with a 90% chance of getting a good cauliflower, it's up to the students to actually get one though. Not all tests are designed to have 100% pass rates, it doesn't change the fact that they all started with the same odds.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
If it's a screening process, then why not just put a cap on the number of people that can pass, rather than sabotage?
Because Shinomiya is an unpleasent person who enjoys suffering. I'm not going to defend him, he's a horrible person, but the exam still tests for legitimate aspects of being a chef.

Last edited by yuzen003; 2013-04-29 at 23:05.
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Old 2013-04-29, 23:27   Link #489
Endscape
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Originally Posted by yuzen003 View Post
Consistency as a concept has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the ingredients, Chicken McNuggets could be made out of pork byproduct and as long as it had the same taste, texture, and appearance of what customers expect then it would pass the consistancy requirement. In this test consistency to the recipe was obviously one of the main factors the students were being evaluated on, she changed the recipe when she failed to procure ingredients of a good quality.
So what you're saying is that consistency is more important than the food being good? Normally both are important, but through no fault of her own, Megumi was put into a position where she either had to sacrifice one for the other, and she made the right choice. It's more important that the customer get their moneys worth than for the chef to follow the recipe like dogma.

In this situation, all you can do is go to the customer, explained what happened and ask them if they'll accept the change. Shinomiya didn't even give Megumi that chance. I've eaten at restaraunts where I ordered for example, a leg and thigh of chicken, or food with a certain sauce. If they don't have a leg or a thigh, or they run out of the sauce, they ask me if I would like something else, a different piece of chicken or another sauce.

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The test was never designed with a 100% pass rate and it's not fair to people who are slow because they couldn't get the ingredients, I agree. The bad cauliflower was thrown in there to ensure some people would fail because they were not fast enough to get one of the limited number of good ones and Shinomiya probably does take great enjoyment in failing people.
It's not just the slow people. What about the students that were standing the farthest away from the cauliflower? They're going to fail because of where they were standing? That has nothing to do with cooking.

Quote:
If there are 100 students, 90 good cauliflower and 10 bad everyone starts with a 90% chance of getting a good cauliflower, it's up to the students to actually get one though. Not all tests are designed to have 100% pass rates, it doesn't change the fact that they all started with the same odds.
No, everyone does not start with the same odds, since, as I pointed out above, they didn't start from the same place. The person standing closest to the cauliflower had a better chance than the person standing farthest away.

They do NOT have the same odds at the start and the odds only get worse as time goes on, since everyone doesn't have an equal chance to get a cauliflower, since there are less cauliflowers than students.

Quote:
Kind of why she failed, specifically the "waited at your restaraunt a long time", I've known people who will leave a restaurant if the wait is too long. The test was partially evaluating speed given slow students would be stuck with bad cauliflower.
Even putting aside the fact that failing someone who took too long to cook because they were unlucky enough to get a bad cauliflower, which could have happened just based on where they were standing is stupid, why not just set a time limit?

Quote:
Because Shinomiya is an unpleasent person who enjoys suffering. I'm not going to defend him, he's a horrible person, but the exam still tests for legitimate aspects of being a chef.
It doesn't matter what the exam tests for if the examiner keeps changing what the exam is about and how he going to grade.
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Last edited by Endscape; 2013-04-30 at 00:14.
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Old 2013-04-29, 23:40   Link #490
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Originally Posted by yuzen003 View Post
In this test consistency to the recipe was obviously one of the main factors the students were being evaluated on, she changed the recipe when she failed to procure ingredients of a good quality.
No, she was failed because the quality of the ingredient she got (cauliflower) is bad. Shinomiya outright reveals this as he does not care about how the students solve the shortcoming.

Megumi only used the wine vinegar to fix her ingredient, and that did not even ruined the vegetables' taste. So, I don't think she failed this test.
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Old 2013-04-30, 00:12   Link #491
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Originally Posted by yuzen003 View Post
The test was never designed with a 100% pass rate and it's not fair to people who are slow because they couldn't get the ingredients, I agree. The bad cauliflower was thrown in there to ensure some people would fail because they were not fast enough to get one of the limited number of good ones and Shinomiya probably does take great enjoyment in failing people.

On the other hand as a consumer I've been in restaurants that you can't be sure on any given night if the food will be great, mediocre, or bad. I've also been to places that take a long time to cook my food and it has negatively impacted my opinion of those restaurants. I as a consumer can see the importance of consistency and speed in a chef which this test evaluates.


Kind of why she failed, specifically the "waited at your restaraunt a long time", I've known people who will leave a restaurant if the wait is too long. The test was partially evaluating speed given slow students would be stuck with bad cauliflower.
You keep saying how Megumi is slow. This makes no sense. Do people not realize that she still made her meal in the same amount of time allowed?

A consumer waiting too long for their meal would not apply in this case. She didn't take any extra time to make her meal. The only issue is that she was literally pushed and wrestled out the way when she was trying to get her own ingredients, not just the cauliflower. Considering she had to fight her way to each ingredient, this has nothing to do with being "slow", and it certainly doesn't prove that she was passive either.
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Old 2013-04-30, 00:29   Link #492
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Originally Posted by yuzen003 View Post
I'm not going to defend him, he's a horrible person, but the exam still tests for legitimate aspects of being a chef.
I'm just going to re-quote myself, since I'm pretty sure I summed up the problem in one, simple, sentence instead of a wall of text.

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It comes down to "cooking test should be testing one's ability to cook, not his/her ability to beat others in a bargain sale shopping spree slugfest"
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Old 2013-04-30, 04:54   Link #493
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Originally Posted by yuzen003 View Post

Kind of why she failed, specifically the "waited at your restaraunt a long time", I've known people who will leave a restaurant if the wait is too long. The test was partially evaluating speed given slow students would be stuck with bad cauliflower.

If there are 100 students, 90 good cauliflower and 10 bad everyone starts with a 90% chance of getting a good cauliflower, it's up to the students to actually get one though. Not all tests are designed to have 100% pass rates, it doesn't change the fact that they all started with the same odds.

Because Shinomiya is an unpleasent person who enjoys suffering. I'm not going to defend him, he's a horrible person, but the exam still tests for legitimate aspects of being a chef.
i think you are wrong in a few aspects

first: one of your argument was that megume was not fast enough but that is not true she completed the task that was given in the time limit, if Shinomiya wanted to test speed, he would not give enough time to everyone complete the task.

two: the test was not made to everyone be in equal % to take the cauliflower , you can see in the manga that she was pushed back when she tried to get the cauliflower and the reason is because she does not have the same physical strenght than a teenager man.

to finish we have to see Shinomiya's test in two point of view's, first is if she was a employer and he is the chief she must pass because like you said is not always that the restaurant will get the good ingredients but she transformed a bad one in something that can be sold and for that she pass.
the second one is if they are in a school, and if that is true the entire test he made is wrong because in school you can not applies a test that someone will fail just because he got the wrong question.
at least we agree that Shinomiya is unpleasent person but about his methods is at best questionable.

sorry about my english i hope that everyone can understand what i wrote because i'm self learning and to be better at english i think is better if i try to write more.
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Old 2013-04-30, 05:20   Link #494
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Didn't expect this going to have full-blown discussion like this I'm pretty sure that we can mae a bunch of analogy for our arguments, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the analogy will go in respect for the aim of this test.

Like I said before, I still don't see the point in making the test like this
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Old 2013-05-02, 22:21   Link #495
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manga Soma > Oneshot soma
Oneshot Erika > Manga Erika
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Old 2013-05-03, 01:07   Link #496
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The only time you'd see someone mix in bad ingredients is to test EVERYONE. A test to see if you can differentiate between poor and good ingredients. Food is scared for a chef. You don't purposely put in spoil ingredients and tell someone to cook with it. The fact four-eyes calls himself a pro yet he put in spoiled ingredients to purposely fail half the students already makes him a fake chef. The fact he had the nerve to fail Megumi after she found a way to fix makes him a anal dick that shouldn't be a chef. Its like a teacher who gives you a test and tells you half the class is destined to fail no matter what you do. Think back to to the first test Megumi and Souma took. The ara ara~ oneesan test was fair. Whether or not you could gather ingredients was up to your potential as a chef. It was a fair playing field. Honestly if you wanted to fuck with the students stupid four-eyes should've given them durian to work with.
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Old 2013-05-03, 01:34   Link #497
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manga Soma > Oneshot soma
Oneshot Erika > Manga Erika
Please tell me that the one shot is already translated.
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Old 2013-05-03, 09:42   Link #498
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Yes it has
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Old 2013-05-03, 10:53   Link #499
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manga Soma > Oneshot soma
Oneshot Erika > Manga Erika


Manga Erina and one shot Erina are not all that different. She's just slightly more dere.
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Old 2013-05-03, 10:57   Link #500
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Oneshot Erika is less bitchy than manga Erika. manga Erika is just too arrogant
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