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Old 2013-05-05, 08:32   Link #21
tsunade666
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You know the theme for sister arc is dark and despair but that's not fitting for railgun anime and RAILGUN ANIME SELLS GOOD!!! it sold more than index so stop beating the bushes because they won't change that.

And even if novel wise the sisters are portrait as lifeless dolls. The anime tend to change that. Heck even Shinobu's eyes are change from derange and creepy to moe and that's the motif of railgun anime.

We aren't watching butchers anime so its okay to make it more like this one. Just let it slide. People are happy the way they are receiving it. For railgun fans.
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Old 2013-05-05, 08:34   Link #22
kaizerknight01
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Well to para phrase a certain loner with dead fish eyes

" There's Isn't a single cell in my body that want to save her [ Sisters ], but when you see a girl you know on the verge of tears [ In Index/Railgun case being butchered ] your heart sinks and your stomach turns ..... It not right .....

The real world situation that i can think in a much smaller scale there a small puppy or kitten being toyed by a couple of brats which to the point of hurting it ....
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Old 2013-05-05, 08:38   Link #23
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
You know the theme for sister arc is dark and despair but that's not fitting for railgun anime and RAILGUN ANIME SELLS GOOD!!! it sold more than index so stop beating the bushes because they won't change that.
Why are you making it an issue between Railgun and Index? Because I certainly didn't.

You have gotten rather pushy haven't you Tsunade?
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Old 2013-05-05, 08:45   Link #24
Suryce
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In my opinion, the new Sisters' design is an improvement for several other reasons than empathy :

- From the pictures comparison someone posted earlier, the new design is clearly superior in terms of pure art quality.

- The Sisters are supposed to be identical to Misaka, not only because of the genes, but also because they wear the same clothes and even follow a diet to adjust their weight to hers. In Index, Touma is completely unable to make the difference between Misaka and one of her clone (only the military goggles and the choice of panties allow him to do that). It makes the story more coherent to actually have the Sisters looking exactly like Misaka.

- The fact that the Sisters are identical to Misaka is also important because it contributes to the latter's fears of having been cloned. It is damaging her sense of individuality, that's why it's freaky (remember how she got freaked out in this episode by sensing her own power being used by someone else).

- The empty eyes aren't really justified, because the Sisters actually aren't totally devoid of emotions. The only example I can give at this point is the crying new-born #9982. She doesn't need any machine to tell her to be sad at not understanding what is going on.
Plus, I would like to point out that the Sisters' eyes are still a bit darker than Misaka's (even the light in their eyes is actually brownish instead of white), though it is not that big of a difference.
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Old 2013-05-05, 08:56   Link #25
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suryce View Post
- From the pictures comparison someone posted earlier, the new design is clearly superior in terms of pure art quality.
Of course, there's no denying this part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suryce View Post
- The Sisters are supposed to be identical to Misaka, not only because of the genes, but also because they wear the same clothes and even follow a diet to adjust their weight to hers. In Index, Touma is completely unable to make the difference between Misaka and one of her clone (only the military goggles and the choice of panties allow him to do that). It makes the story more coherent to actually have the Sisters looking exactly like Misaka.
If you want to talk about story coherent then you would lose points because in the original source that's how their eyes were described.

Emotionless and unfocused- That's what Kamijou himself have noticed.

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Originally Posted by Suryce View Post
- The fact that the Sisters are identical to Misaka is also important because it contributes to the latter's fears of having been cloned. It is damaging her sense of individuality, that's why it's freaky (remember how she got freaked out in this episode by sensing her own power being used by someone else).
Okay, but that can still be achieved regardless.

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Originally Posted by Suryce View Post
- The empty eyes aren't really justified, because the Sisters actually aren't totally devoid of emotions. The only example I can give at this point is the crying new-born #9982. She doesn't need any machine to tell her to be sad at not understanding what is going on.
Plus, I would like to point out that the Sisters' eyes are still a bit darker than Misaka's (even the light in their eyes is actually brownish instead of white), though it is not that big of a difference.
Flawed; you don't have to be sad to cry.

Babies cry when they're born, but that doesn't mean they are sad. Crying serves other purposes than expressing sadness or any emotion.

In addition, this isn't specific to humans alone.
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Old 2013-05-05, 10:14   Link #26
leukrota
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Flawed; you don't have to be sad to cry.

Babies cry when they're born, but that doesn't mean they are sad. Crying serves other purposes than expressing sadness or any emotion.
In this case, I agree that she didn't cry cause she was sad, but rather given the representation I'm fairly sure she did cause she was afraid (which is arguably an emotion)

Anyway, if it was my decision, I would alternate the empty eyes with normal ones depending on the situation. Like how the clone is acting on the rational/emotional scale or how much "influence" the network has on her at a given time...

But alas, it isn't mine, so I'll just let it be.
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Old 2013-05-05, 10:29   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
If you want to talk about story coherent then you would lose points because in the original source that's how their eyes were described.

Emotionless and unfocused- That's what Kamijou himself have noticed.
"Emotionless and unfocused" is a description of her expression, not of her physical facial structure. It doesn't mean that her eyes are bigger than Misaka's, that she doesn't look like her, that her pupils are unvarying, or that light doesn't reflect in her eyes.

The big empty eyes are justified in the LN illustrations because the illustrator had much less space to use and need clear distinctions between the characters, and Misaka was drawn with big eyes too. But they didn't adapt this correctly in the Index anime. Misaka's eyes were changed but not the Sisters', which didn't make sense at all. The Sisters having big eyes in the Index anime is an anomaly because their chara-design is not adapted to the new format like the rest of the cast, and they don't look like Misaka while they actually did in the LN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suryce
- The fact that the Sisters are identical to Misaka is also important because it contributes to the latter's fears of having been cloned. It is damaging her sense of individuality, that's why it's freaky (remember how she got freaked out in this episode by sensing her own power being used by someone else).
Okay, but that can still be achieved regardless.
But not with as much efficiency. One of the greatness of manga/animes is to say a lot of things through the faces of the characters only.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen
Flawed; you don't have to be sad to cry.

Babies cry when they're born, but that doesn't mean they are sad. Crying serves other purposes than expressing sadness or any emotion.

In addition, this isn't specific to humans alone.
"Sad" was clearly not the right word, but #9982 show clear signs of being confuse and distraught, which is an emotional state.
But anyway, as I said, this is just the only thing I can quote for now, but starting right from the next episode, we will see subtle but clear displays of emotions from the clones.
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Old 2013-05-05, 10:32   Link #28
tsunade666
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Why are you making it an issue between Railgun and Index? Because I certainly didn't.

You have gotten rather pushy haven't you Tsunade?
I'm not making an issue between those two but you said that the design for the sister doesn't give it more lifeless feeling and the feeling that should invoke is "why is it worth saving?" right? because from Mikoto's perspective its a "human" but from the academy city perspective. Its a doll. A lifeless doll which when shown in Index. They show a expressionless eyes or dead eyes which is different from the current display.

The current animation is truly superb and I don't have problem on it. My problem probably is for people questioning the designs. Like why they change the eyes of the characters. See? I'm not questioning and as a matter of fact. I haven't watched it yet to question it.

From image shown. The Railgun S has superb animation so what's the problem with it? Its the way railgun anime rolls.

Heck, even if the disturbing Kuroko scenes in their dorm and some insert scene in between events of sister arc is kinda disturbing for the dark nature of the arc.

I'm might turn out to be pushy because aren't we discussing that already since season 1? We even question that the studio won't do sister arc because it felt different. Then, when the announcement was made. We also made a discussion on how things will be shown. And There was even an interview on how they will do sister arc. Which only gives proof that it will be the same for Season 1.

I remember relentless and some other people using the sales for railgun season 1 to justify it. So, I'm also using that railgun sold more than index and lets just face it that there will be changes in adaptation that some will not like but its already been expected so why question it?

Right now. I'm defending the railgun anime because they are doing what I expect them to do and they are showing capable of it so no problem for me because lets just face it. They are doing great on their job and I'll call it an improvement. This is an anime to begin with and not the novel or manga. Visuals are important here.
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Old 2013-05-05, 11:33   Link #29
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suryce View Post
"Emotionless and unfocused" is a description of her expression, not of her physical facial structure. It doesn't mean that her eyes are bigger than Misaka's, that she doesn't look like her, that her pupils are unvarying, or that light doesn't reflect in her eyes.

The big empty eyes are justified in the LN illustrations because the illustrator had much less space to use and need clear distinctions between the characters, and Misaka was drawn with big eyes too. But they didn't adapt this correctly in the Index anime. Misaka's eyes were changed but not the Sisters', which didn't make sense at all. The Sisters having big eyes in the Index anime is an anomaly because their chara-design is not adapted to the new format like the rest of the cast, and they don't look like Misaka while they actually did in the LN.
Is that why in every version of the story- The Index Light Novel, the Index Manga, the Index Anime (x2), the Railgun manga- up until this point has this design?

This was clearly intended.


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But not with as much efficiency. One of the greatness of manga/animes is to say a lot of things through the faces of the characters only.
*shrugged*

If it's not broken don't fix it.

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Originally Posted by Suryce View Post
"Sad" was clearly not the right word, but #9982 show clear signs of being confuse and distraught, which is an emotional state.
But anyway, as I said, this is just the only thing I can quote for now, but starting right from the next episode, we will see subtle but clear displays of emotions from the clones.
Which again, my point is that it can still be achieved with the original design.

It doesn't really add in any real meaningful way.

Nobody had problems sympathizing with the clones, and it's not like they can't sympathize them because of their design.

And if a set of eyes can do that... Well I guess it just shows how shallow they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
I remember relentless and some other people using the sales for railgun season 1 to justify it. So, I'm also using that railgun sold more than index and lets just face it that there will be changes in adaptation that some will not like but its already been expected so why question it?

Right now. I'm defending the railgun anime because they are doing what I expect them to do and they are showing capable of it so no problem for me because lets just face it. They are doing great on their job and I'll call it an improvement. This is an anime to begin with and not the novel or manga. Visuals are important here.
Then if you're not going to contribute to the discussion in any meaningful way what are you doing?

So what if they're doing a good job? Does it mean I have to shut up and not voice anything?

The difference between discussing it then is that you guys were freaking out over NOTHING. The funny thing is now that we have something to work with, the same people are hiding their tails between their legs and just nod off.
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Old 2013-05-05, 14:16   Link #30
Random Wanderer
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Which again, my point is that it can still be achieved with the original design.

It doesn't really add in any real meaningful way.

Nobody had problems sympathizing with the clones, and it's not like they can't sympathize them because of their design.

And if a set of eyes can do that... Well I guess it just shows how shallow they are.
Can be, just not as easily.

It may surprise you to learn this, but the entire audience for a series doesn't come here, or (for that matter) to the other places you may go on the internet where Index was discussed, or necessarily to any place on the internet where Index was discussed. This series is intended to appeal to more than just the "fans" who come out and talk about it online. And to more than just the people who watched Index. And yes, some people are shallow. But surprise, every person has subconscious emotional reactions to things, and triggering those is part of the job of people who design stuff like this. There is no need to give them the stereotypical dead eyes, when the description of having no emotion or no light in their eyes can be acheived through proper use of facial expressions on a human-looking face.

So you agree that it looks better. As a result of looking better, it accomplishes it's purpose better, we seem to agree there as well, even if you don't think it needs to do so. Your complaint seems to break down to being upset simply because they changed it, regardless of whether or not the changes made it better.

In that case, this is where I get to ignore you with a clear conscience, because I never watched or read the other versions, so as far as I'm concerend this is the only version that matters. And they're making the Misakas look like Mikoto, the way they should. Good on 'em.
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Old 2013-05-05, 16:24   Link #31
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
Can be, just not as easily.

It may surprise you to learn this, but the entire audience for a series doesn't come here, or (for that matter) to the other places you may go on the internet where Index was discussed, or necessarily to any place on the internet where Index was discussed. This series is intended to appeal to more than just the "fans" who come out and talk about it online. And to more than just the people who watched Index. And yes, some people are shallow. But surprise, every person has subconscious emotional reactions to things, and triggering those is part of the job of people who design stuff like this. There is no need to give them the stereotypical dead eyes, when the description of having no emotion or no light in their eyes can be acheived through proper use of facial expressions on a human-looking face.
This series is to appeal to the Japanese otaku fanbase, and a HUGE part of that crowd are internet online users, they are almost synonymous at this point.

(WE, the foreigners, are not part of the target audience- Just throwing it out there first.)

If there are casual people just watching this series casually, you can bet that they are not going to shell out tens of thousands of yen for the Blu-ray which makes them kinda obsolete....


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So you agree that it looks better. As a result of looking better, it accomplishes it's purpose better, we seem to agree there as well, even if you don't think it needs to do so. Your complaint seems to break down to being upset simply because they changed it, regardless of whether or not the changes made it better.

In that case, this is where I get to ignore you with a clear conscience, because I never watched or read the other versions, so as far as I'm concerend this is the only version that matters. And they're making the Misakas look like Mikoto, the way they should. Good on 'em.
Flawed argument.

The overall art design is better aesthetically when compared to the first Index Season five years ago.

However, looking pretty and serving it's purpose are two completely different thing.
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Old 2013-05-05, 16:29   Link #32
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What exactly is the discussion about this time?
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Old 2013-05-05, 16:31   Link #33
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I think they're arguing about how Imouto doesn't have the blank, gray eyes from the Index anime, and have eyes identical to Mikoto's, and whether this is good or bad for the franchise.
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Old 2013-05-05, 16:32   Link #34
Chaos2Frozen
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What exactly is the discussion about this time?
Overall, it's the new eyes design.

Some people like it because it looks better and makes them more human, while I decide to take an unconventional stance and say that they should make them less human and harder to sympathize instead.

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I think they're arguing about how Imouto doesn't have the blank, gray eyes from the Index anime, and have eyes identical to Mikoto's, and whether this is good or bad for the franchise.
That's a tad bit too dramatic.
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Old 2013-05-05, 16:34   Link #35
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Personally I'm fine with it. I think it'd be better if they have the blank look like in Index, but maybe that'll come later given what's supposed to happen... but I prefer them having the proper eye color, seeing how she's a damn clone.

From what I've seen of the LN artwork of the Sisters, and of the manga, no one comments on the eye design, so presumably it's just for the viewer's benefit anyway.

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That's a tad bit too dramatic.
That's how it's coming off, though, given how hard everyone's arguing this admittedly minor detail.
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Old 2013-05-05, 16:51   Link #36
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Some people like it because it looks better and makes them more human, while I decide to take an unconventional stance and say that they should make them less human and harder to sympathize instead.
So you're arguing this just out of perversity? I'd have to say that the people who accused you of trolling have a point, then. If you're causing an argument just to argue, even though you don't actually believe what you're arguing, or don't really care, that's trollish behavior.
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Old 2013-05-05, 16:54   Link #37
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Devil's Advocate is being a troll?
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Old 2013-05-05, 16:57   Link #38
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
So you're arguing this just out of perversity? I'd have to say that the people who accused you of trolling have a point, then. If you're causing an argument just to argue, even though you don't actually believe what you're arguing, or don't really care, that's trollish behavior.
Which part of what I've said did I declare that I don't actually believe in what I'm arguing?

Do you also go around accusing people of being trolls when they play devil's advocate as well?

Is this how you intend to make your argument? By accusing the opposite party for being trolls? In that case you have ran out of arguments already if this is the card you're playing.
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Old 2013-05-05, 17:25   Link #39
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Which part of what I've said did I declare that I don't actually believe in what I'm arguing?

Do you also go around accusing people of being trolls when they play devil's advocate as well?

Is this how you intend to make your argument? By accusing the opposite party for being trolls? In that case you have ran out of arguments already if this is the card you're playing.
Will you just drop it already? :/ Please. This is getting pointless and annoying. I think now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. You know you're being a forum troll when people start to get annoyed by you and a number of people agree with it.

Anyways, my prediction for the last sentence of this episode was off by four words... Or rather lack thereof.
"W-who..." she says, I thought it'd be "Who the heck are you?!"
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Old 2013-05-05, 17:30   Link #40
Random Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Which part of what I've said did I declare that I don't actually believe in what I'm arguing?

Do you also go around accusing people of being trolls when they play devil's advocate as well?

Is this how you intend to make your argument? By accusing the opposite party for being trolls? In that case you have ran out of arguments already if this is the card you're playing.
I bolded the part that indicated to me that you were arguing this not because you believed it, but because you simply chose to do so. Looking back, other arguments you've phrased have come across as someone arguing an academic position rather than a position that they genuinely support. Rather than responding with an attack, why don't you state your position clearly? Do you, in fact, support this position that the creators of this series should have made the Sisters appear less human rather than more? Do you genuinely believe this would have improved people's reactions to them, whether emotionally, or on any other level? Do you truly believe doing that would have had a positive impact on the ratings and/or sales figures for this series?

If that is what you really believe, then people can continue to debate with you. There would be some point to it. If you do not truly believe the position you are advocating, however, then the debate is pointless, because no matter what logic is used to disprove your position, you have no reason to acknowledge it. You can ignore it, or use word games to dance around it, because in that case you won't care about the actual position you're advocating: all you care about is causing the argument.

So what is it?
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