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Old 2013-05-05, 10:14   Link #41
Dengar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Feel free to correct me, but I interpret that "big whoop" as sarcasm... meaning you do not think it was a big deal that Ronaldo killed a person. That is where I disagree because of many reasons, some of which were already stated.
Up to this point, your interpretation wasn't wrong, but then you said this.

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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Declaring war and starting a conflict over a grudge in the first place is fine now?
Which is a claim I never made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Another reason is how the cutscene specifically played out in the game. Makoto wasn't killed in the midst of battle, nor did either of them have their phones out to use magic or demons. Makoto forfeited her life as the scapegoat for JP's deeds.

A kill is a kill, whether you want to play semantics with its synonyms or not.
To murder and to kill are not synonymous, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
You also were the one who wanted to know the reason why people hated Ronaldo in the game, and I told you why. I don't know why you're getting defensive over an answer you asked for. It's not even a complaint about the anime - I stated how the anime portrayed him in a better light so far.
I am sorry, I will admit that I do not always communicate well. My intent was not to forcefully change your opinion or anything. I just intended to add the way I view things. And then people started calling me a monster supporter and that's how we got here.
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Old 2013-05-05, 14:16   Link #42
maplehurry
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Well Ronaldo was basically gathering an angry mob to attack, damage and sabotage a sanctioned GOVERNMENT organization a) responsible for protecting the world and pulling humanity through this whole mess b) led by a Hotsuin whose family has been protecting Japan even at the cost of their own lives for ages c) where people actually get the job done also even at the cost of their own lives.

They're not even withholding resources to survive. They do it to FIGHT as efficiently as they can to save humanity. As demonstrated several times, each JPs member is ready to lay down his or her own life if necessary.
I trust JPs members... but only half-trust Yamato. He's not the same Hotsuin as his elders (though somewhat understandably so). He's the kind of person who's capable of gathering enough resources before the crisis, but choose not to do so because he doesn't care about the average people.
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Old 2013-05-05, 14:38   Link #43
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Half-Trust Yamato or not, what Ronaldo did was dumb, short sighted, and made everything worse. At least Yamato was getting things done.

Ronaldo had no reason to kill Makoto and if anything she would have been FAR more valuable as a prisoner since Yamato would have at least wanted his lackey back(even if she puts lives over JPs as she's a good person first). Ronaldo only killed Makoto, who was no longer able to fight, because he wanted to stick it to Yamato who honestly didn't really care all that much anyway since he isn't the type to mourn over a dead lackey no matter how useful they are. Thus murdering Makoto didn't achieve anything at all and just reinforces how short sighted and spiteful Ronaldo is as he's willing to screw everything over and let the world burn just as long as he "beats" Yamato.
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Old 2013-05-05, 14:43   Link #44
Dengar
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I'm not quite sure how assisting in the defeat of Phecda equals 'making things worse', but k.

I'm also unsure how kicking people and leaving them do die for being 'weak' equals 'getting things done', but k.
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Old 2013-05-05, 14:46   Link #45
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What he was trying to do doesn't add up to all the BS he pulled in the game that made things far worse. You also ignored the fact that Ronaldo ONLY killed Makoto to spite Yamato, that was literally it. He could have had leverage over Yamato if he just took her captive or handed her to the MC who could have made use out of her as well.

The worst thing that he doesn't care that he committed murder for that reason alone and sees everything he does as justified even when it's far from it.
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Old 2013-05-05, 14:48   Link #46
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But it's not murder. When two people fight eachother to the death, chances are, one of them ends up dead.


And please don't go the "I can't believe you're trying to justify murder" route.
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Old 2013-05-05, 15:11   Link #47
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Yes it is.

She was defeated and had no means of fighting. He put a gun to her head when she couldn't resist than murdered her after she was no longer a combatant. That and the fact that was FAR more valuable alive. The only reason he murdered her was because he thought it would effect Yamato.

That IS murder. Even in war zones if you did something like that, and gawd forbid there are any witnesses, you would could very well be jailed, at least for the USA.

And you are trying to justify it because that's LITERALLY what it was. No matter how you look at it, what he did was murder and it wasn't even justified. Especially since the people knew Makoto helped anyone that needed it even they fought JPs.

Cold Blooded Murder.
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Old 2013-05-05, 15:29   Link #48
Dengar
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I hope for your sake that you're anti-death penalty, or it'd come across as hypocritical.

But I think I've said almost all I can say about this subject, so I'll just leave some final, general notes.

First of all, I'm not justifying anything. For everyone's information, I hate all forms of killing. I do, however, have a tendency to at least try to understand a character's actions. And frankly, I find it kind of hard to understand that someone who acts out of honest-to-goodness anger, somehow ranks below the worst type of scum that could possibly walk this earth: Namely the type that looks down on the "unworthy" and would crush them beneath their feet if they had the chance.

Of course, different people have different values, I respect that, but never, ever do something like labeling me some kind of "monster supporter".

Besides, it's not like there's any good and evil in Devil Survivor 2 to begin with, or any type of Megami Tensei game. There is no 'justice', only 'conflict'. The side that wins ends up being the side that's right. Why do you think these games have multiple endings to begin with?
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Old 2013-05-05, 15:38   Link #49
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No it doesn't. People that are tried and found guilty should face their punishment. It is NOT the same as taking a defeated person than gunning them down like Ronaldo did. There's No justification for it AT ALL!

Yes you are, if you weren't than you wouldn't be saying "Well, it can't be murder because Ronaldo...". There's nothing more to understand, Ronaldo murdered her in cold blood and the ONLY reason he did it was to get back at Yamato.

Just because either side is SUPPOSED to be gray doesn't change that what Ronaldo did was an EVIL act to stroke his ego.
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Old 2013-05-05, 15:58   Link #50
Dengar
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There were plenty of crimes Makoto was guilty of (when viewed from Ronaldo's side), so that doesn't hold up. Regardless of that...

When did I say "What Ronaldo did was justified because..."?

Just because I don't view it as murder, how on earth do you get the idea that I condone such a thing? I just don't go all "Oh wow he killed a character I liked, now he is a complete monster.". I'm not sure how that suddenly makes me in love with the guy.
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Old 2013-05-05, 16:24   Link #51
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No. Ronaldo viewed anything related to Yamato as evil. Makoto was JPs but she ALWAYS put people first even if it didn't benefit JPs or in the case of helping rioters it even hurt JPs.

It IS murder. You even pulled out of the blue "death penalty" to try and somehow give your reasoning merit when it didn't. Ronaldo was acting as Judge, Jury, and Executioner and the reason he did it, and many other things, is because he just wanted to "get back" or "Spite" Yamato whom he saw as the "villain" and he himself as the "Hero". It didn't matter who Makoto was or all the good she has done, she was merely a means to get to Yamato.

Just because he views things differently doesn't wash away his crimes, he murdered Makoto and for no good reason other than to stroke his ego. That was literally it.
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Old 2013-05-05, 18:38   Link #52
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
And frankly, I find it kind of hard to understand that someone who acts out of honest-to-goodness anger, somehow ranks below the worst type of scum that could possibly walk this earth: Namely the type that looks down on the "unworthy" and would crush them beneath their feet if they had the chance.

Besides, it's not like there's any good and evil in Devil Survivor 2 to begin with, or any type of Megami Tensei game. There is no 'justice', only 'conflict'. The side that wins ends up being the side that's right. Why do you think these games have multiple endings to begin with?
My take on this is because while Yamato does represent a form of fascism/oligarchy to Ronaldo's communism, he at least sticks to his philosophy whether you personally agree with his views or not.
Ronaldo is supposed to represent these ideals that are the opposite of Yamato's views, but he just comes off as one angry and bitter guy. It's even more apparent when you do the optional events that let you see what his mentor is like, and he's nowhere near as obsessed with Yamato as Ronaldo is.


You know how Megami Tensei games like to have multiple endings designed after the Dungeons & Dragons alignment system of Law vs Chaos?

In Devil Survivor 2, I believe Yamato and Ronaldo are supposed to represent the "Lawful" routes, with the two representing two different extremes of the political spectrum in government (i.e. communism on the left end, fascism on the right). One believes only the strong with power should rule, while the other is supposed to believe in helping the weak.

There's also the Anguished One who represents Chaos or anarchy, while Daichi is the neutral/reset party.

However, throughout the game it's apparent that Ronaldo doesn't really embody an ideology fitting of a Megami Tensei ending at all. Sure, you can see in the ending how everyone is forced to help others out even at their own expense (since you as the protagonist were the one who made it that way...), but during the story even Ronaldo doesn't really believe in helping the weak unconditionally if the weak happens to be his enemy.

The fact that you can also see Ronaldo actively killing someone and abandoning others in need compared to his "opposite" who only has harsh words and dark history not even directly shown doesn't make him look any more appealing either.

Last edited by Shadow5YA; 2013-05-05 at 18:50.
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Old 2013-05-05, 20:40   Link #53
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Well if we're going to compare them there's also the thing where Ronaldo sabotages you at every turn and even gets possible party members killed, sometimes doing the deed himself like with Makoto. In contrast, Yamato keeps you gathered, fed, provided, guided and instructed regardless of his problematic personality. To be honest even having a decent bed to sleep in during this whole mess is a pretty big thing and even in other routes they use JPs Resources.

Yes, he's not nice and isn't making any effort to be. And I personally appreciate him not trying to put on a goody good shoes act like someone else. Unlike Ronaldo, Yamato also is ridiculously open with his emotions unless he's in denial himself to begin with. Heck, even then he's willing to listen and try to understand without much fuss or haughty pride.

Plus, unlike Ronaldo who claims to be an adult, you go on to discover Yamato is genuinely a sheltered child who gets confused by most basic human interactions. Even when he's at the pinnacle of his jerkassness, you have the knowledge that this is genuinely the only way he knows how to be. And on the topic of things he's in denial about, he's also surprisingly eager to learn and try new things. Not to mention how fast he gets emotionally attached. They intentionally demonstrate how clueless about the world he actually is several times in the game. Even him being younger than the protagonist just serves to emphasize that.

Also, other than the time where everyone turn against each other anyway, Yamato's ACTS are nothing but helpful and responsible despite having despite having to make many harsh but arguably necessary decisions with the fate of world on the line. We pretty much only hear of his "evil" deeds second hand and even then the sources are all misinformed.

Point. No Yamato, no game.

And unlike Ronaldo who's just using his ideals as an excuse, Yamato has legitimate reasons have his own, what with his upbringing, and genuinely believes in them. But then the thing where he happened to be born and raised a Hotsuin keeps him from understanding some of the most basic human stuff. Following his route, he genuinely wants a world where strong rule instead of a world where he specifically rules. Rather than being actually selfish and self serving, he's trying to do what he genuinely thinks is the best for the world.

Following that, his circumstances can also come off as somewhat pitiful for some players. Especially compared to Ronaldo whose whole deal was that he had a not-actually-dead friend to avenge. Especially when you get more familiar with Alcor to the point you see the similarities.
Spoiler for do we even need to use spoilers in this thread to begin with? oh well whatever:

What I mean is, while he would never think of it as unfair, unfortunate or pitiful (remember, he's Yamato and he never knew what "normal" is to begin with) From an outsiders view it very much is.

And even in the routes he does go batshit. My stand is that he only flips as hard as he does because of heavy abandonment issues with the protagonist (and Alcor in his route) It's not like he has a clue how friendship or relations or FEELINGS works. Not only was he never thought about them, he was probably thought to scorn them and view them as weaknesses. He literally lashed out because he can't deal with his feelings. He doesn't know how. He never had them. Hibiki is literally his first friend and equal so Yamato can't hold all those feels *slapped*

*cough* Anyway he comes back to you, no hard feelings, in Daichi route. Would've come around in Ronaldo route if not for the London Bridge falling down. Alcor route was double the feels so I'd say that one was hopeless though. What I mean is that's one out of three to Ronaldo's two. And compared to Yamato, Ronaldo didn't have any proper reason to flip at Alcor so that's double nyeh.

So there, why I (and it seems most others?) like Yamato better and find him more sympathetic than Ronaldo. In the end they're all just excuses but at least much more legitimate and understandable ones than Ronaldo and his blatant hypocrisy.

Last edited by Blizzard; 2013-05-05 at 21:46.
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Old 2013-05-05, 21:38   Link #54
Angelic Cross
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
You know how Megami Tensei games like to have multiple endings designed after the Dungeons & Dragons alignment system of Law vs Chaos?

In Devil Survivor 2, I believe Yamato and Ronaldo are supposed to represent the "Lawful" routes, with the two representing two different extremes of the political spectrum in government (i.e. communism on the left end, fascism on the right). One believes only the strong with power should rule, while the other is supposed to believe in helping the weak.

There's also the Anguished One who represents Chaos or anarchy, while Daichi is the neutral/reset party.

However, throughout the game it's apparent that Ronaldo doesn't really embody an ideology fitting of a Megami Tensei ending at all. Sure, you can see in the ending how everyone is forced to help others out even at their own expense (since you as the protagonist were the one who made it that way...), but during the story even Ronaldo doesn't really believe in helping the weak unconditionally if the weak happens to be his enemy.

The fact that you can also see Ronaldo actively killing someone and abandoning others in need compared to his "opposite" who only has harsh words and dark history not even directly shown doesn't make him look any more appealing either.
Someone mentioned in the DeSu 2 threads of Gamefaqs and Something Awful mentioned that Daichi, Ronaldo and Yamato's routes were based more on the Qualities/Modes of the Zodiac (Fixed, Cardinal and Mutable, respectively) instead of the traditional Law-Chaos axis, which makes sense considering the stellar theme of DeSu 2. AO is represented by Ophiuchus, and as such his route is outside of the three Zodiac Modes.
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Old 2013-05-06, 01:21   Link #55
Dengar
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wall of text, did read all of it though
The way you describe it sounds a lot more reasonable then "He's a dirty wannabe communist monster". And I've seen some arguments that could hold some water on a more meta narrative, like his lack of consistency. I just get extremely confused by people calling him a 'monster' when his opponent is the guy who lacks any human emotion or redeeming qualities, whereas Ronaldo is acting about as human as one could expect a human to act (IE on emotion).

Because I can see absolutely no circumstances that could cause me to suddenly decide that everyone in the world is shit and needs to bow before me.

And to understand something is something completely different from justifying it. Not even trying to understand, however, makes one ineligible to judge.
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Old 2013-05-06, 03:20   Link #56
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^Damn freaking right. I think hypothetically if normal people are put in Ronaldo's shoes, they'd probably do the same cowardish act you know to have the upper hand and make sure the opponent can never get up again. Ronaldo is never cut out to be a leader, he was just strong in ideals and charisma, desperate people are willing to follow him.

Yamato can stick to his plan because he has a very little regard for emotions. He comes off as apathetic to pretty much everything, whatever he does seems reasonable. For him, the end justifies the means because his upbringing had a large impact on his views. See I don't mean to go off-topic, Yamato is a bit like Lelouch from Code Geass. While Yamato does rely on his close confidants, his lesser officers are just pawns to dispose of. If there's anything I learned from Anime Fandom, people always prefers this type of character time and time again. They may lack morals but their goal is consistent and willing to see through the end.

What I'm saying is I think it's completely pointless to convince that Ronaldo is not the terrible monster as all the people seems to think. Somehow I get the impression he seems to get hate as passionate as Hitlers. He made a stupid decision and killed Makoto and several other JPs but that time, he was caught in that moment of rage and anger.
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Old 2013-05-06, 03:49   Link #57
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
The way you describe it sounds a lot more reasonable then "He's a dirty wannabe communist monster". And I've seen some arguments that could hold some water on a more meta narrative, like his lack of consistency. I just get extremely confused by people calling him a 'monster' when his opponent is the guy who lacks any human emotion or redeeming qualities, whereas Ronaldo is acting about as human as one could expect a human to act (IE on emotion).

Because I can see absolutely no circumstances that could cause me to suddenly decide that everyone in the world is shit and needs to bow before me.
Inconsistent = The whole hypocrite thing. Not anything meta.

Well to be fair Yamato does have emotions and pretty intense ones at that. But bad, bad, batshit yandere violent things happen when he acts on them so really, we should be grateful he can move with cold logic most of the time. He hasn't the slightest clue how to handle emotions and possibly how to recognize them. Else he would've realized how straight as a rainbow he came across while gushing over the protagonist. He's actually almost too human. He could've accomplished his objective much more swiftly and efficiently if he wasn't so insistent about having Hibiki by his side no matter what. In each route when it comes to Hibiki, he too always ends up being controlled by his emotions before logic just like Ronaldo is.

Calling Ronaldo a dirty wannabe communist monster is more of an attempt to oversimplify all his negative traits in a single exaggerated insult.

To begin with, Ronaldo wasn't about extreme ideals (that's Yamato) He was about grudges and flaws so communist part is out of the window. His ideals, which he uses as justifications anyway, on the other hand are only bare bones of communism at worst so yeah. Besides, rather than being a wannabe, he genuinely thinks he's right so "deluded" might be the better world.

And he's as much of a monster as any other human being is. He just comes across worse when every other named character can actually focus on saving the world and stuff before personal problems. You might say THEY are the real irregularities here but Nicaea tests the strength of will to begin with so yeah, it might be only natural it turned out like this.

I recognize his good points but since this discussion is about his bad ones I ended up focusing on those instead. To sum it up, he's very shortsighted, simple-minded, tends to see things black and white and believe he's always right, has anger issues and holds grudges like a Taurus (no seriously he's the least Aries character in the whole game what's up with that?) Once he gets over it he's a genuinely well meant, dependable guy. It's just that getting over part is like duuuuuuude. In the end, they're all very common human flaws we all have to some extent. They just happened to come together and cultivated by the circumstances in what might be the most grating way possible and led to many bad decisions. (which causes some inconveniences when I'm shipping him with Makoto)

But claiming that Yamato thinks "everyone in the world is shit and needs to bow before me" is even worse than that one since it's at least an exaggeration. Yamato can and does judge people according to their abilities and accomplishment and rewards them as such while having reasonable demands and expectancies. Yes he's rude but he never unjustly mistreats someone. His men are loyal for a reason (many reasons but I don't wanna go into another mini rant spare me)

And it's stated in canon text SEVERAL TIMES in even his own route that Yamato doesn't think HE should rule. He changed the world so that those with merit -be it strength, knowledge, education- should be recognized and respected in a merit based hierarchy. He reprograms the very core of humanity so that things like bribe, flattery, family position etc wouldn't matter INCLUDING his own.

Polaris itself warns him that this means he can easily be taken down if someone with more power came along. He's totally fine and thinks that's how the world should be. He outright says he'd be very proud of him if the protagonist was to overpower and usurp him one day. They keep ruling because they ARE the strongest. And this is after he saves humanity which would bring him much more respect and admiration and the whole world pretty much owes him one. Merit system actually puts him in a DISADVANTAGE.

And that's how he grew up. In an environment full of demands and expectations where he would've been immediately discarded the moment he failed to live up to them. Hotsuin or not. And so, now he ends up valuing merit over everything just like he was thought to. Try as we might, we can't agree with that. We're normal. That kind of living isn't carved into our bones. Even I can try to understand but I just can't get behind Yamato's ideal. Since he only ever lived on the cold, unforgiving side of it, there's much Yamato hasn't seen in the world. Much he doesn't know that even elementary school children do. Just like there are things he knows and we don't, there are so many things that are natural for us but he doesn't have a clue of. There is the kind of merit, the kind of strength Yamato never got to know before meeting the protagonist.

Basically I'm going to go with the protagonist. They're both dregs (but they're my dregs) And someone seriously needs to ship Yamato off for a long overseas study vacation with the protagonist before he can even start yapping about an ideal world. Ronaldo on the other hand, REALLY needed to know better. But Dera-Deka is also guilty in this case since he just stood back and watched under the pretense of keeping him safe while Ronaldo was going berserk for his sake. If he was able to trust Ronaldo to know the truth and take care of himself from the start we could've avoided much trouble. It's not like Yamato even cared enough about him to confirm his death, he wasn't going to bother going after Ronaldo OR Airi to begin with.

But on the topic of treating characters fairly as human beings, try to take your own advice. You're doing the same thing yourself to Yamato in the very same post you're expressing your dislike for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soliloquy View Post
While Yamato does rely on his close confidants, his lesser officers are just pawns to dispose of.
Here, I have no idea what the heck anime was thinking since they never bothered to explain the full extent of his plan or tactics. But Yamato does take care of his man and treats them reasonably (not nice or gentle mind you) He doesn't ask anything of them he wouldn't do himself and whatever sacrifices he makes in the game are necessary ones where everyone was aware of the risks from the beginning. They're not results of petty fits of frustration like some random hollywood villain with laser-shark pools. He's born to make hard decisions.

In the anime, showing off the protagonist being the hero and getting character development was more important (*eyeroll*) but it wouldn't be wrong to think that Yamato probably had a plan. Whatever original plans they had were sure out of the window with Alcor's little kidnapping stunt (so done with all routes sans neutral) and Hibiki was the then-emotionally-unstable ultimate weapon they needed to risk as little as possible. For the future battles as well. What I mean is, JPs know what they're in for and ready to risk their lives for a chance at future. And Yamato is a worthy leader for that organization.

Oh and Makoto's death was not an act of cowardice, it was an act of anger. Cowardice is one flaw Ronaldo thankfully doesn't have (he's pretty good at that whole courage thing actually but this is getting long)

Last edited by Blizzard; 2013-05-06 at 08:21.
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Old 2013-05-06, 04:30   Link #58
Kimidori
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wow, Blizzard, all of your post is really in-dept and amazing, if the rep system still here I would have + rep all of your post.

and I see why you tell people to stop you if you start writing essays now, what are you studying at uni?
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Old 2013-05-06, 04:40   Link #59
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wow, Blizzard, all of your post is really in-dept and amazing, if the rep system still here I would have + rep all of your post.

and I see why you tell people to stop you if you start writing essays now, what are you studying at uni?
Like, I'm so sorry OTL I'm studying computer engineering. I just like digging into fictional characters and the sound of my own voice I guess. And most of the time I do it while really sleep deprived and unable to tell which way is up so I'm surprised I'm making any sense at all.
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Old 2013-05-06, 06:31   Link #60
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
The way you describe it sounds a lot more reasonable then "He's a dirty wannabe communist monster". And I've seen some arguments that could hold some water on a more meta narrative, like his lack of consistency. I just get extremely confused by people calling him a 'monster' when his opponent is the guy who lacks any human emotion or redeeming qualities, whereas Ronaldo is acting about as human as one could expect a human to act (IE on emotion).

Because I can see absolutely no circumstances that could cause me to suddenly decide that everyone in the world is shit and needs to bow before me.

And to understand something is something completely different from justifying it. Not even trying to understand, however, makes one ineligible to judge.
The problem is that this is an issue that applies to Ronaldo as well. Whenever something related to Yamato comes up, any rationality that he normally has when he is with Hibiki alone goes out the window.

If you think that his opponent "is the guy who lacks any human emotion or redeeming qualities", then Ronaldo is the opposite extreme, acting on a single emotion to the point where it's not rational.


On a larger scale, Ronaldo is the leader of a faction just as much as Yamato is, and therefore has standards and responsibilities to meet. However, the game doesn't help make him any more appealing with his lack of consistency.

For example, I can perfectly understand when Ronaldo and others are protesting that Yamato is hoarding all the supplies for himself and his organization. However, when he goes around claiming that he will change the world into one that will "protect the weak", my sympathy for him is lost when he is never shown helping anyone, short of participating in Septentrione battles that he himself gets caught in.


And despite you claiming that Yamato lacks emotion, even Yamato is presented in a more appealing light when he has scenes like the taiyaki one where he enjoys food from the "commoners" he has so much disdain for to his own surprise. As Blizzard mentioned, you get to see how sheltered he is as he awkwardly grows closer to Hibiki and shows his attachment through his awkward commanding "I need you" orders.

The game just shoehorns Ronaldo's hatred for Yamato so much that even in Daichi's Restorer ending where it shows how "different" everyone is from the experiences they gained with Hibiki that Ronaldo is simply shown doing his job hunting other criminals to express that he finally let his grudge go and has moved on. Ronaldo's obsession with Yamato is just so large during the game that it seems that it's his only quality.

Is it understandable? Sure, I guess, but it doesn't really make him fit to change the world, and it doesn't show that he is any less guilty of crimes that he accuses Yamato of doing.
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