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Old 2013-05-07, 09:27   Link #7021
quagmire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Not to argue about who build the Gundams, but I think you got mixed-up a bit. IIRC (in SEED episode 1) Those MSs are planned to be used by Natural Pilots with OS meant for Natural (those Natural pilots saluted Mu in the beginning of episode 1 before going on their way). But when Kira was forced to pilot one of them (Strike), he said that the Natural OS is a mess and really not good to control a MS (this is from a coordinator’s POV), then he reprogram the OS to better suit him (a coordinator). Mind you that before stealing the GATs, Athrun and friends also need to reprogram the OS first before activating it just like Kira did (Nicol took a lot more time with it compared to everyone else IIRC).
It wasn't just from a Coordinator's point of view.... The OS was poor period due to it still being in development.

Mu stated that the pilots who were supposed to pilot the G weapons could barely get them to move in simulations. This is shown when we first saw the Astray in Orb and the girls barely got it moving.

Also, Kira's friends are not very nice. Rewatching the Seed remaster got me thinking on this. They discover that an old good friend of Kira's is piloting the Aegis. All they worry about is Kira leaving them. Not realizing how hard it is on Kira to fight his friend to protect them......
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Old 2013-05-07, 11:12   Link #7022
S.Freedom
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Yeah Kira wasn't talking about the Strikes OS being a piece of junk as a coordinator, but as an engineering student. Which brings up something I've wondered about. Kira rewrote the Strikes OS pretty damn fast while under duress. I mean he's a student facing an experienced Ginn pilot, but manages to fend him off long enough to rewrite the Strikes OS into something usable by himself. Most folks shrug it off as "lol ultimate coordinator or lol plot".

But I've been thinking it's something else. At the beginning of Seeds first episode, Tolle and Mir bring Kira extra work from their professor. They basically indicate Kira is something of a teachers pet because of how much he helps said professor with his Morgenrate related work. So what I'm thinking is that Kira's prof. was giving him bits and pieces of info on the G project to work on. But did so in such a way that Kira himself would never put 2 and 2 together. Part of the work Kira was doing happened to be on a natural use OS for the gundams. Which would explain how he managed to rewrite the Strikes OS even though he was a novice pilot facing an experienced Ginn pilot.

As for his friends being not very nice. You have to consider the fact that without Kira they'd likely die pretty fast. As the full force of Rau's forces would be on the Archangel and not divided between it and the Strike. So it's kinda understandable that they where more concerned with their survival and not necessarily with how Kira felt about having to face Athrun. Though I do agree they could've done better than they did.
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Old 2013-05-07, 11:33   Link #7023
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
It wasn't just from a Coordinator's point of view.... The OS was poor period due to it still being in development.

Mu stated that the pilots who were supposed to pilot the G weapons could barely get them to move in simulations. This is shown when we first saw the Astray in Orb and the girls barely got it moving.
Umm... Is this supposed to be rebutting my point that the OS is a mess? Because your reply actually strengthen my point that Paladinoras is wrong when he said that the OS is too complex for the Naturals to handle. The OS is simply poor, and that makes it even more impossible for coordinators to make it, right?
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Old 2013-05-07, 14:02   Link #7024
quagmire
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
As for his friends being not very nice. You have to consider the fact that without Kira they'd likely die pretty fast. As the full force of Rau's forces would be on the Archangel and not divided between it and the Strike. So it's kinda understandable that they where more concerned with their survival and not necessarily with how Kira felt about having to face Athrun. Though I do agree they could've done better than they did.
I understand the concern that Kira may leave them. But, once he proved he was loyal, had no regard or care of the fact that he was fighting a friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Umm... Is this supposed to be rebutting my point that the OS is a mess? Because your reply actually strengthen my point that Paladinoras is wrong when he said that the OS is too complex for the Naturals to handle. The OS is simply poor, and that makes it even more impossible for coordinators to make it, right?
It was a mess, but you made it out to sound like the OS was a mess for a coordinator to use. Where the OS was a mess whether a natural or coordinator was piloting it.

When Kira rewrote it, the OS did become too complex for natural use as stated by Mu saying there is no way anyone else could touch it now.
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Old 2013-05-07, 14:06   Link #7025
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Yeah. The OS was unusable by everybody, Natural or Coordinator, as it could only fire the vulcans and take a few slow steps.

However Coordinators could modify it into something workable for Coordinators only. Although it still seemingly more efficient for Athrun's team to dump it when they got back to the ship and install the regular Zaft OS instead.
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Old 2013-05-07, 20:47   Link #7026
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
It was a mess, but you made it out to sound like the OS was a mess for a coordinator to use. Where the OS was a mess whether a natural or coordinator was piloting it.

When Kira rewrote it, the OS did become too complex for natural use as stated by Mu saying there is no way anyone else could touch it now.
It seems like you took my post in the wrong way. Ok, to simplify things, here’s the chronology:
  • Paladinoras said: the OS is too complex (from the beginning) for Naturals understanding. That’s why the G-weapons must be build by coordinators somehow.
  • I said it’s not. The OS (made by the Naturals) is simply a mess, not complex. And considering that Kira (a teenage coordinator) said it was a mess, there’s no way the G-weapons’ OS are made by coordinator-engineers/programmers. Coordinators won’t make an OS that messy.

So, me including “a coordinator” into Kira’s POV is just to give it a perspective toward Paladinoras’ point. I’m not saying that the OS is a mess for coordinators only and OK for Naturals. But the OS is most likely made by Naturals, that’s why I called it “Natural OS” to differentiate it with the OS Kira has rewritten. Are we clear now?
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Old 2013-05-08, 00:02   Link #7027
Paladinoras
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
Yeah Kira wasn't talking about the Strikes OS being a piece of junk as a coordinator, but as an engineering student. Which brings up something I've wondered about. Kira rewrote the Strikes OS pretty damn fast while under duress. I mean he's a student facing an experienced Ginn pilot, but manages to fend him off long enough to rewrite the Strikes OS into something usable by himself. Most folks shrug it off as "lol ultimate coordinator or lol plot".

But I've been thinking it's something else. At the beginning of Seeds first episode, Tolle and Mir bring Kira extra work from their professor. They basically indicate Kira is something of a teachers pet because of how much he helps said professor with his Morgenrate related work. So what I'm thinking is that Kira's prof. was giving him bits and pieces of info on the G project to work on. But did so in such a way that Kira himself would never put 2 and 2 together. Part of the work Kira was doing happened to be on a natural use OS for the gundams. Which would explain how he managed to rewrite the Strikes OS even though he was a novice pilot facing an experienced Ginn pilot.

As for his friends being not very nice. You have to consider the fact that without Kira they'd likely die pretty fast. As the full force of Rau's forces would be on the Archangel and not divided between it and the Strike. So it's kinda understandable that they where more concerned with their survival and not necessarily with how Kira felt about having to face Athrun. Though I do agree they could've done better than they did.
I've always said that while Kira is probably not necessarily the best pilot in all of Gundam, he's probably the best programmer there is. And yeah, I thought it was pretty clear that he helped develop something tangentially related to the G-Units with his professor at Orb? I'm guessing that is why he's so familiar with the machinery, he's done something similar (on a much smaller scale obviously)

I don't think that his professor is feeding him info about a highly classified military project, but I believe that there is some overlap between what he's developing and what the AF was doing at the time.

And I'm pretty sure that they showed Kira's friends being somewhat troubled by it, but more for selfish reasons, in a "Wow, is he really going to try his best to fight him?" sense. Then again from what I saw, his only "real" friends were Tolle and Miriallia, the rest were colleagues. But goddamn Flay was a massive bitch. Her final redemption didn't do much to change my opinion of her.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Not to argue about who build the Gundams, but I think you got mixed-up a bit. IIRC (in SEED episode 1) Those MSs are planned to be used by Natural Pilots with OS meant for Natural (those Natural pilots saluted Mu in the beginning of episode 1 before going on their way). But when Kira was forced to pilot one of them (Strike), he said that the Natural OS is a mess and really not good to control a MS (this is from a coordinator’s POV), then he reprogram the OS to better suit him (a coordinator). Mind you that before stealing the GATs, Athrun and friends also need to reprogram the OS first before activating it just like Kira did (Nicol took a lot more time with it compared to everyone else IIRC).
I guess that's fair, I was just thinking that since Morgonroete helped them develop the units, and Morgoenroete had Erica Simmons as chief designer, that it wouldn't be so farfetched that she had assisted with the OS. That would technically mean that Coordinators, by proxy of Morgonroete, helped develop the units.
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Old 2013-05-08, 01:51   Link #7028
monster
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
I guess that's fair, I was just thinking that since Morgonroete helped them develop the units
Morgenroete provided the place, and maybe materials, and helped with the design of the Archangel, but not the mobile suits.
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Old 2013-05-08, 04:35   Link #7029
kaito-kid
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Morgenroete provided the place, and maybe materials, and helped with the design of the Archangel, but not the mobile suits.
And not to mention, perhaps the most impressive tech on the G-weapons, the PS armor was developed by EA's own research team.
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Old 2013-05-08, 10:51   Link #7030
Paladinoras
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Morgenroete provided the place, and maybe materials, and helped with the design of the Archangel, but not the mobile suits.
MAHQ lists Strike as being manufactured by Morgonroete.
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Old 2013-05-08, 11:18   Link #7031
Gundamx
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
MAHQ lists Strike as being manufactured by Morgonroete.
They used Morgonroete factory to built it
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Old 2013-05-08, 12:54   Link #7032
S.Freedom
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
And yeah, I thought it was pretty clear that he helped develop something tangentially related to the G-Units with his professor at Orb? I'm guessing that is why he's so familiar with the machinery, he's done something similar (on a much smaller scale obviously)

I don't think that his professor is feeding him info about a highly classified military project, but I believe that there is some overlap between what he's developing and what the AF was doing at the time.

And I'm pretty sure that they showed Kira's friends being somewhat troubled by it, but more for selfish reasons, in a "Wow, is he really going to try his best to fight him?" sense. Then again from what I saw, his only "real" friends were Tolle and Miriallia, the rest were colleagues. But goddamn Flay was a massive bitch. Her final redemption didn't do much to change my opinion of her.
Well perhaps not the G-units but perhaps the Astray line that morenrate was developing from what they where getting from the G-units. It just struck me as odd that kira could rewrite the OS of a unit as complex as the Strike while supposedly learning of it's existence for the first time even if he's an uber programmer of the highest caliber. He had to have had some knowledge about it even on an extremely basic level that he would not be able to piece it together and say holy sh!t I'm helping to develop mobile suit tech. Though it helps that he was rather naďve at the time.

As for his friends. We have to remember that they where teenagers who had lived in peace all there lives. When was the last time you met a teenager who didn't have a "me first" attitude on some level?

As for Flay. Yeah I raged about her bitchyness for a while as well. But then I realized she had it even worse than Tolle & co. She was an out and out daddies girl who was dependent on him to validate her existence. Even if you factor in Sai's presence which was minimal imo, she needed someone to latch onto on a deep seeded level. And Kira was who she latched onto due to her situation.
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Old 2013-05-09, 19:44   Link #7033
kaito-kid
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I don't think he is rewriting the OS in the first episode, thats imposible. He is basically changing the settings of the OS so that he can move the damn thing, the Strike is still pretty shit in the first episode.

Maybe he got some work done in the 2nd episode before Rau showed up, but not in the first. Rewriting an OS is not something you do on the go, even if you are Coordinator. Kira was working on the Gundam OS up until the final battle against Athrun. I guess it wasn't just Kira who was becoming better a pilot, but also the Strike becoming a better machine through the course of Seed.
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Old 2013-05-09, 20:05   Link #7034
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It may be something you do on the go when you're Jesus Yamato...

But I agree. He has to be just changing settings.

I think that that's backed up by what Andrew Waltfeld says in one of the desert episodes (the number escapes me right now). Waltfeld comments on the way Kira modified the settings on the fly for the Strike to be able to operate in the sand effectively. The dialog may have said something about reprogramming, but it's clearly a reference to changes in settings.
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Old 2013-05-09, 20:12   Link #7035
BladeEntity
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I think it's more of recalibrating the system on the fly then simply changing settings
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Old 2013-05-10, 01:27   Link #7036
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
I don't think he is rewriting the OS in the first episode, thats imposible. He is basically changing the settings of the OS so that he can move the damn thing, the Strike is still pretty shit in the first episode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
But I agree. He has to be just changing settings.

I think that that's backed up by what Andrew Waltfeld says in one of the desert episodes (the number escapes me right now). Waltfeld comments on the way Kira modified the settings on the fly for the Strike to be able to operate in the sand effectively. The dialog may have said something about reprogramming, but it's clearly a reference to changes in settings.
I think it’s just a semantic problem. “rewrite/reprogram” is just easy to come up with and easy to type . To be honest, we don’t know exactly what Kira has done to the Natural OS, but the OS was definitely crappy and Kira changed it.
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Old 2013-05-10, 01:38   Link #7037
Skye629
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Remaster EP 7 (how do you make the video image appear instead of link?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4jXQ...layer_embedded

Ahhhh I love Rie Tanaka's music, its so beautiful and soothing :3
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Old 2013-05-10, 01:48   Link #7038
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Remaster EP 7 (how do you make the video image appear instead of link?)
Quote this post of mine, and you'll know how to .

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
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Old 2013-05-10, 02:09   Link #7039
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Quote this post of mine, and you'll know how to .

YouTube
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So just [yt] then finish with [/yt]? Thanks!
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Old 2013-05-10, 02:30   Link #7040
The American Average
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ah this episode whole a lot of nothing, Cagalli acts like a dumb idiot, Athrun goes "whos the enemy urgah" shinn yells at said idiot, Luna still useless in and out of suit, see shinn's partents die in Flashback again, Blue logos being as ridiculously evil as much as possible, Pink explosions destory landmarks across the world, (still find it funny that when they named off all the cities that got hit they mentioned Philadelphia and Quebec who remembers those places =p) comet hits earth plot point quickly forgotten, Lacus singing, Kira stargazing (hur dur made joke)

all joking aside when Minerva lands in the ocean and all the little kids get excited to see the sea, it just shows how inexperienced they are and star-y eyed there are you know big ass rock hits earth they go "ooh big body of water". makes me wonder why didn't the Captain call HQ to get a better roster of personnel when they got to a safe spot to contact ZAFT. a lot problems would have been pasted by later in the series if they would have gotten better people on board.
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