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Old 2012-03-30, 22:04   Link #3701
UsagiTenpura
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To go along with this I'll suppose a Rokkenjima Prime really exists...

We know nothing about it that we can be certain of.
Lion could exist in it. Discrepencies between Prime and the gameboard doesn't matter since there's no one to scrutinize them with reliable information about prime.

To Lion, the Ange he meets in TP7 is as theoretical as he is to her.
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Old 2012-03-30, 23:19   Link #3702
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
To go along with this I'll suppose a Rokkenjima Prime really exists...

We know nothing about it that we can be certain of.
Lion could exist in it. Discrepencies between Prime and the gameboard doesn't matter since there's no one to scrutinize them with reliable information about prime.

To Lion, the Ange he meets in TP7 is as theoretical as he is to her.
Well, generally we consider Rokkenjima Prime the world that ends up becoming Ange's world and that's our only source of info for Prime.
So, since no one in that Prime ever heard about Lion, Lion 'doesn't exist' in Prime (though Ange would probably like Lion's prime because in it Battler never went on Rokkenjima and therefore he survived and he's likely living with her).
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Old 2012-03-31, 00:13   Link #3703
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, generally we consider Rokkenjima Prime the world that ends up becoming Ange's world and that's our only source of info for Prime.
So, since no one in that Prime ever heard about Lion, Lion 'doesn't exist' in Prime (though Ange would probably like Lion's prime because in it Battler never went on Rokkenjima and therefore he survived and he's likely living with her).
Problem is, Ange had a fictional conversation with Hachijou in arc 6.
The same can apply to the rest of scenes with Ange... where basically we have no idea if she really lived any of these events or not.
The only Ange we know might be as fictional as the rest, wether or not Ange's world really exists. The one at the end of arc 7 that sees Lion is aware of being a piece, so definitively isn't the real Ange.
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Old 2012-03-31, 04:52   Link #3704
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I think the only "PRIME scenes" are the ones with Ikuko's (almost-)revalation and the last scenes with ange in magic ending and ??? TP. I think even Tohya's first memories somehow are not right, as I think Ikuko only made him think that it happened like that.

So to say, the only scenes we can accept as they are, only exist in EP8.
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Old 2012-03-31, 07:56   Link #3705
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Problem is, Ange had a fictional conversation with Hachijou in arc 6.
The same can apply to the rest of scenes with Ange... where basically we have no idea if she really lived any of these events or not.
The only Ange we know might be as fictional as the rest, wether or not Ange's world really exists. The one at the end of arc 7 that sees Lion is aware of being a piece, so definitively isn't the real Ange.
I doubt all we see about Ange's world is real as Ange has 4 possible endings. If we want Prime is the moment that goes from the Rokkenjima tragedy to Ange being about to jump down of a building. Everything else that happens is closed in the catbox 'Ange's future'.
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Old 2012-03-31, 08:18   Link #3706
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I doubt all we see about Ange's world is real as Ange has 4 possible endings. If we want Prime is the moment that goes from the Rokkenjima tragedy to Ange being about to jump down of a building. Everything else that happens is closed in the catbox 'Ange's future'.
R07 said in an interview that:

Spoiler for WARNING! EP8 ENDING!:
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Old 2012-03-31, 09:01   Link #3707
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
R07 said in an interview that:

Spoiler for WARNING! EP8 ENDING!:
Spoiler for WARNING! EP8 ENDING!:

Last edited by jjblue1; 2013-01-14 at 18:56.
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Old 2012-04-03, 13:34   Link #3708
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I hear a lot of people talk about how Yasu yells at Genji, because he saved her and she is as good as furniture, etc.

Having replayed through the game, I didn't read that anywhere? Do I remember wrong, or is it from another game? Did I just completely miss it?
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Old 2012-04-03, 13:59   Link #3709
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It's one of the scenes that flash by when Bern cuts Clair open with her scythe (which she totally stole from Erika by the way) at the end of the EP7 tea party.
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Old 2012-07-28, 13:03   Link #3710
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Spoiler for Theory Rokkenjima:

Last edited by Vaskerry; 2012-07-28 at 13:44.
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Old 2013-04-14, 12:14   Link #3711
Vandrao
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Hey guys, could someone explain to me the transitions between episode 6 and episode 7? It was said a couple of times throughout episode 6 that that was going to be the "final" game. I guess it's the fantasy part of the story so I shouldn't get so caught up in it, but Battler was the game master in ep6 and he had won the game, so wouldn't he be the master in ep7 as well? I guess I should throw in here the transition from 7 to 8 where Battler suddenly becomes the game master as well.
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Old 2013-04-14, 13:10   Link #3712
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Vandrao View Post
Hey guys, could someone explain to me the transitions between episode 6 and episode 7? It was said a couple of times throughout episode 6 that that was going to be the "final" game. I guess it's the fantasy part of the story so I shouldn't get so caught up in it, but Battler was the game master in ep6 and he had won the game, so wouldn't he be the master in ep7 as well? I guess I should throw in here the transition from 7 to 8 where Battler suddenly becomes the game master as well.
"Episode 6" concluded Battler's fight. He had no reason to start another game. Episode 7 had either Bernkastel or Aurora as the game master and should give some answers about the past and most answers about the fictional stories surrounding Rokkenjima. As for the "real events on Rokkenjima" it depends on whether you believe the story from the EP7 tea party, or not.

About the events of EP8, how many survivors there really were and what really happened after the Rokkenjima incident, we should discuss in the spoiler forum.
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Old 2013-04-14, 13:32   Link #3713
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
"Episode 6" concluded Battler's fight. He had no reason to start another game. Episode 7 had either Bernkastel or Aurora as the game master and should give some answers about the past and most answers about the fictional stories surrounding Rokkenjima. As for the "real events on Rokkenjima" it depends on whether you believe the story from the EP7 tea party, or not.

About the events of EP8, how many survivors there really were and what really happened after the Rokkenjima incident, we should discuss in the spoiler forum.
I figured it would be something along those lines. I haven't actually gone very far into ep8 yet, and I've been skipping back and forth between earlier episodes, so I'll get over to the spoiler forum when I'm done. Thanks for the insight.
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Old 2013-05-08, 19:54   Link #3714
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I've got a quick question if someone could help clear this up. I haven't read Ep7 in ages and haven't read Ep8 yet. Did Yasu make a fake murder mystery for Battler to figure out and did this turn into real murders like the Ep7 tea party? Did Yasu actually kill people as she suggested she would have in the tea party? Or is all of these speculations considered possible due to the Cat Box mystery?
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Old 2013-05-08, 20:13   Link #3715
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We don't know. The Cat Box seems to lock everything up in ambiguity forever. HOWEVER, a popular interpretation, and one I subscribe to, is that Yasu orchestrated a mystery game that got derailed by someone else using it as the perfect cover, and that Bern's Tea Party was just orchestrated to be the most hurtful thing to Ange.
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Old 2013-05-08, 21:00   Link #3716
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
We don't know. The Cat Box seems to lock everything up in ambiguity forever. HOWEVER, a popular interpretation, and one I subscribe to, is that Yasu orchestrated a mystery game that got derailed by someone else using it as the perfect cover, and that Bern's Tea Party was just orchestrated to be the most hurtful thing to Ange.
Thanks This is going to help when my friend finishes Ep7 and wants to discuss things with me ^^
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Old 2013-09-20, 11:02   Link #3717
Funyarinpa
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I gave up on trying to solve the mysteries after episode 6 and just read 7... and man, it was ridiculously good! Things make a lot more sense now, although I still haven't figured out a lot of things.
Spoiler for EP7:
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Old 2013-09-20, 13:42   Link #3718
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Originally Posted by Funyarinpa View Post
For example why the crime only occurs if Battler returns on that specific year. To be honest, I don't really know why it does in general. Yes, Yasu went through a lot of suffering because of young Battler, but would she really kill the entire family + servants because of that?
This is a common question; the issue here is that EP7 does not, on its own, provide a complete and full view of Yasu's character. It's by far the clearest and most extensive resource we have to learn about her, but it's mostly only her relationship to Battler that's covered; her relationships to George, Jessica, and even Maria are just as important, and they're easy to overlook or underestimate the importance of given the immediate massive infodump. Remember that two very important years of her life were missed out; you're going to have to piece those together yourself based on the previous episodes. Yasu's motivations are extremely complicated, and really require a broad look across the whole series to understand fully. And of course, there's no guarantee that she even is the culprit, or ever intended to kill anyone outside of her fictional gameboards.

Quote:
By the way, isn't Shannon = Kanon (=Yasu=Claire=Businesstrice=Lion) pretty much confirmed in this episode? Why do some people still don't believe it, did I miss anything?
Pretty much everyone does believe it. There's just a vocal (well, not so much any more) minority who watched a certain nine-hour theory video and became convinced that Shkanon was a lie based on one guy's intelligent-sounding ramblings and their own vague memories of a series they probably hadn't read for months or years at the time they watched the video. EP7 really isn't ambiguous about this at all, and pretty much everyone who's really committed to understanding Umineko agrees on this point.

Quote:
Also, the first teaparty... How are we supposed to know what's inside the catbox, or in other words if Rudolf and Kyrie really are this heartless. That would kinda suck, I loved Kyrie until that scene... But then again, just like she said, the others probably would have acted the same way. And aren't the guns they are using shotguns? How come Kyrie can use them with just one hand? Wouldn't the recoil dislocate her shoulder or something?
You may want to read EP8 before you come to any conclusions on this, but it's really up to you whether you believe Bernkastel's show or not. It depends whether you have enough love for Rudolf and Kyrie to truly believe that they're incapable of doing something like that. On the guns...rule of cool, I guess? I don't really know much about the physics of it.

Quote:
Oh, and another thing... Lion, Shannon, Yasu... Do we know which sex he/she possesses? Her gender is probably female because all of her forms except Kanon are women, and even Kanon is always described as pretty feminine.
Speaking about Kanon, I am not sure if he is only a person in Shannons head or if she really dresses as him. I would've thought the former if Battler didn't speak to him several times during the games and referred to him as a male.
She was almost certainly raised as female outside of Lion's kakera, but you have to ask: if that's really all there is to it, why does Kanon exist at all? Take a look at this, as some food for thought.

As for Kanon's existence, the general consensus is that he only existed in Shannon's head up until 1984, at which point Yasu became the family head and was able to pull some strings to make Kanon's existence "real". Exactly how much she actually playacted him in real life is open to interpretation, but it certainly seems to have happened at least a little.

Quote:
EDIT: Another thing, EP7 was the only one with a catbox mystery, right? The other ones have a single true solution to them?
I'm not sure what you mean here? The gameboards have a single true solution, yes. The real world, that we see in Ange's 1998 sections in EP4 and a few other places, is an eternal cat box. EP7 itself doesn't really have any mystery; it's an answer session for the previous mysteries. And the tea party is just a portrayal of a possible Rudolf/Kyrie culprit theory for the real world, not a mystery in itself. So I'm really not seeing how EP7 presents any particular mysteries that weren't already around in the previous games.
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Old 2013-09-20, 19:32   Link #3719
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Originally Posted by Funyarinpa View Post
For example why the crime only occurs if Battler returns on that specific year. To be honest, I don't really know why it does in general. Yes, Yasu went through a lot of suffering because of young Battler, but would she really kill the entire family + servants because of that?
Actually Clair said something would have happened regardless of Battler's return and we know in Lion's world Kyrie tries to kill him anyway even if Battler didn't come back.
So it's possible to assume Battler's return merely caused Yasu to do something that caused the mess to become huger.
As Ryukishi implied the adults might possibly be involved in what happened to Rokkenjima Prime, it's possible to theorize that the adults' situation would be bad regardless of Battler's return and they could end up resorting to desperate measures to get the money or they could end up causing an incident that however wouldn't escalate to the point there was only 1 survivor, the island was half destroyed and people assumed it was all the work of a witch.

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By the way, isn't Shannon = Kanon (=Yasu=Claire=Businesstrice=Lion) pretty much confirmed in this episode? Why do some people still don't believe it, did I miss anything?
Because they don't like this solution I guess, so they continue to search for a better one. But I guess the reason might wary from person to person.

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Originally Posted by Funyarinpa View Post
Also, the first teaparty... How are we supposed to know what's inside the catbox, or in other words if Rudolf and Kyrie really are this heartless. That would kinda suck, I loved Kyrie until that scene... But then again, just like she said, the others probably would have acted the same way. And aren't the guns they are using shotguns? How come Kyrie can use them with just one hand? Wouldn't the recoil dislocate her shoulder or something?
I'm not a gun expert so I can't help you with them. I think the teaparty is biased toward a Rudolf/Kyrie jerk culprit theory.
It's possible that they did kill everyone as their situation was the worst and they had the lowest sense of moral but I've hard time accepting they went at it as if it was a fun party as the teaparty seems to show.

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Originally Posted by Funyarinpa View Post
Oh, and another thing... Lion, Shannon, Yasu... Do we know which sex he/she possesses? Her gender is probably female because all of her forms except Kanon are women, and even Kanon is always described as pretty feminine.
Speaking about Kanon, I am not sure if he is only a person in Shannons head or if she really dresses as him. I would've thought the former if Battler didn't speak to him several times during the games and referred to him as a male.
Yasu was likely originally a male. In the manga Lion is represented as quite taller than Beato and Ryukishi said Lion does housework because he believes in gender equality. However as Yasu was raised as a female she likely perceives herself as such.
In Ep 1 we see Battler meeting someone who introduces himself as Kanon and Battler agreed to acknowledge him as a boy. So Yasu dressed up as Kanon, at least during the game. As she has plenty of accomplices it can be that everyone else acknowledged her as Kanon merely believing they were playing a prank on Battler.
Also Yasu dressed up as Kanon to go at Jessica's school but again, Jessica might have been aware of the trick. We don't really know.
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Old 2013-09-22, 10:54   Link #3720
Funyarinpa
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Thanks for the replies, you two really helped me out.
I will take a short break before playing episode 8 so I can sort out my thoughts a bit more. Hopfeully I will have figured more things out by then.
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